Fuel tank construction

[CarlC]

Thanks Traven.

I spent months engineering and testing the systems in 2009-10 before ever announcing their availability. There are parts out there that have recently come out that look AMAZINGLY like my recessed fuel tray that was built in 2009. Ditto with some other components. There are also some real engineering concerns in some of the other designs that are not addressed or even questioned by most users.

The information shared on http://www.vaporworx.com I believe is necessary in order to help understand the advantages and complexities of the modern fuel module and EFI requirements. There are $millons spent in GM R&D to make these things work. A Gen5 fuel module new is about $220. Yes it's double what a Walbro 255 is, but the overall capability of the GM fuel module is outstanding. It's really in a different universe. It also makes fabrication easier and fuel delivery better. Replacement parts are as close as your dealer. So the initial outlay of cash may be higher, but the overall cost in time and money makes it about even in the end but with a much more capable fuel delivery system.

There is another pwm system out there similar to mine. I've tested it as well. Let's just say that the results from the lab testing were such that there was no way I would put it in my car for further testing. I know what they had to do to make theirs compatible with a very wide variety of pumps. When one does that capability must be sacrificed, and the sacrifices made, IMO, make them incompatible with what our needs are. I took the other approach by narrowly focusing on the modules that work in our cars and then designed the control systems to make them work properly.

For used Gen5 pumps go to camaro5.com. I've bought three from there to use as test mules and they have been just fine. Usually they can be had for about $85 shipped.

[SShep71]

I got the quote to have the plates cut for the tank. 378.00 for the materials and the actual cut plates. Thats laser cut plates with the proper bends in them with a +/- .005 tolerance on dimension and +/- 1/16 on the bends. If I were to buy a used pump, and the ring kit and a filler tube the total cost for materials would be appx 650.00 for a baffled stainless tank with a LS3 pump. Im sure there will be a few changes but its a great starting point. The labor for me to weld it is free (AWESOME). I am pretty happy so far, I will see how things change. Now all I have to do is what untill I get back to atually make it happen. If anyone wants prints or contacts or sources for parts let me know I have a pretty good list. The tank is modeled after a 72 Nova tank, but It will fit in an A-body as well (thats what its going in) I will post updates as things change

[T_Raven]

Have you checked out the retroworx kit? I don't know what they charge for it, but you could use a factory lock ring and it has the fuel pressure regulator adapter. Their site explains why you need a 4th gen regulator.

[CarlC]

The full RetroWorx kit which as the pre-bent recessed tray, mounting ring, cam locking ring, fuel pressure regulator adapter, and fuel line support kit, is $259.

For Shep's the fuel requirement is such that a Gen5 LS3 pump won't work. He's going to need a CTS-V fuel module, which is a different monster. I sell these for $440. The proper pwm controller is $500.



There's no free lunch in modern fuel systems.

[acegto]

I got the quote to have the plates cut for the tank. 378.00 for the materials and the actual cut plates. Thats laser cut plates with the proper bends in them with a +/- .005 tolerance on dimension and +/- 1/16 on the bends. If I were to buy a used pump, and the ring kit and a filler tube the total cost for materials would be appx 650.00 for a baffled stainless tank with a LS3 pump. Im sure there will be a few changes but its a great starting point. The labor for me to weld it is free (AWESOME). I am pretty happy so far, I will see how things change. Now all I have to do is what untill I get back to atually make it happen. If anyone wants prints or contacts or sources for parts let me know I have a pretty good list. The tank is modeled after a 72 Nova tank, but It will fit in an A-body as well (thats what its going in) I will post updates as things change

Well, if you're going to go forward with it i'll be in line for a tank and pump. Pm me if you need anything on my end.

[T_Raven]

The full RetroWorx kit which as the pre-bent recessed tray, mounting ring, cam locking ring, fuel pressure regulator adapter, and fuel line support kit, is $259.

For Shep's the fuel requirement is such that a Gen5 LS3 pump won't work. He's going to need a CTS-V fuel module, which is a different monster. I sell these for $440. The proper pwm controller is $500.

There's no free lunch in modern fuel systems.

How does the CTS-V module differ from the 5th gen?

[CarlC]

http://www.vaporworx.com/speed_control_systems.htm

[SShep71]

Damn you Pulse Width Modulation! Carl a few questions. Well first IOT to properly fuel the engine I planned on running what would the cost be for all the necessary parts i.e. pump,requlator,corner pick ups, etc? Would a fuel cooler be effective at helping to reduce fuel temps? I have looked at running aftermarket pumps but I am unsure if they will get the job done. Thanks for the help!

[exwestracer]

Another way to look at Donny's volume equation is 1 gallon = 231 Cu in. When I'm building a cell, I just multiply out the dimensions and divide by 231 to get gallon capacity.

You guys are lucky...my race cars have to have rubber bladders inside the cells, and I haven't seen anything on making those at home! Expensive? How about $2500 for a custom rubber bag, and then you STILL get to make an Alum. can to go around it.

[CarlC]

Those get pretty spendy in a hurry Ray. I'm working on one now where the module reservoir section is mounted in the bladder but all bulkheads go through a standard access plate.

Shep, the pressure regulator in the CTS-V module has too high a pressure setting for us. By the time you get done with external regulators, coolers, hoses, fittings, etc. the pwm starts to make sense. The same basic setup is used in Steilow's Mayhem but controls twin ZL1 fuel modules.

It was the performance of the aftermarket pumps that got me in to this silly business. None of them did everything that modern fuel modules and control systems can do. EFI is completely unforgiving concerning fuel delivery. One can get away with murder using a carburettor, but it too has drawbacks.

[SShep71]

Ray I know a little about that, I made one in school for the school race truck. It was a pain in the ass. I went to school at LCCC in nanticoke, PA for motorsports, we had to do all this stuff for our degree. I almost went to Wyotech out there instead. That was years ago!

Carl talking to you is like talking to my Krav Maga instructor. I know I need, and want to hear what he says, but I know what he tells me to do is gonna cost me alot of time and pain! haha So if I went through you for a proper pump and controller what would the cost be. I need a price for everything I need, and for the corner pickups. If you dont want to post it on here can you PM me a price. I know somepeople want to keep stuff on the DL. I got one or two emails about guys interested in the tank. If they actually want everything i will be sure to send em to you!

[SShep71]

I am getting pretty close to being done with the tank drawings. This is a quick screenshot of what I have so far. I will post the finished drawing set as soon as I get it done. The few of you that asked for it if you send me your email I will send it to you

[chevelletiger]

Prints,contacts,parts sources.pm sent!

[CarlC]

What are the two outboard/top access panels for?

[SShep71]

I put them there so there can be easy access to the corner pickups. I want to use yours but the way they wount will not work for the baffle style I went with. I havent added the provisions for holding the corner pickups in place to the drawing yet. I still need to do somemore additions to the drawing. Were you ever able to get me a total price for all of the pump realated parts?

[CarlC]

Sorry on the costs, thought I did that. Later tonight....

If you,re running the fuel module no other baffling is needed. The vertical bulkheads are there for strength under the straps. A large hole can added to the bulkhead for a hand to fit through. A small Z-shaped bracket can be tack welded to the tank bottom to hod the pickup. The spring of the Z will hold the pickup in place and requires no tools for installation or future servicing

[SShep71]

No worries, I know the bulkheads are for strength but the added control of fuel from freely moving from side to side is a plus. I intend for the tank design to be multipurpose, that way someone can take the design and build it for a carborated setup or a non module type of pump i.e. aeromotive, walboro, etc. The extra cost and weight of the additional access ports on top is very minimal. My intent for this other than I want my own fuel system is that I want others that have the ability to have access to the drawings. It turns out that my down time over here is good for autocad drawings plus for some reason autocad is a little escape for me, its almost theraputic. haha I want to draw my own watts link but I cannot get ahold of drawings or dimensions to even begin. My Fays2 is stuffed under the car at paint right now. I was planning on using the Z-shaped braket to hold the corner pickups in place. Right now I have a clamp style mounting ring setup for the module, I am not a fan of the OEW style lock rings.

[parsonsj]

Be sure and weld in a vent bung somewhere on the top surface.

[SShep71]

John there are going to be a few different bungs welded on. I just cant decide where to place them, I was going to wait until I had the tank mocked up and in place before I did any drilling and welding. I am going to have to hold of unless you have a suggestion that has worked in the past for placement.

[parsonsj]

Sure, that sounds ok. One thing that works for Rick's Tanks is to mount the vent bung on the front face of the tank (the differential side) with a tube on the inside that goes above the fuel "water-line". If you do something like that, you'll need to plan that now.

On the other hand, if you are going to vent the tank from the top, then you can do that last -- though be cognizant that welding the bung to unsupported sheetmetal will likely lead to some waviness in the sheetmetal.