Speedtech upper control arm angle seems too much under load?

[medbali76]

Hi All,

My car ( 72 Nova ) just got the new suspension components and they look a little weird to us.
It looks like the upper control arms will have pretty high angle under load and even at lowered ride height.
They are Speedtech control arms with ridetech SA shocks.
We tried the factory spindles with Kore3 hubs and CPP tall spindles with C5 hubs. However with factory spindles looked "ok" but it wont let us to use 255 wide front tire. It does not turn without getting contact to other parts.
The CPP tall spindle with the corvette hubs seems good ( the tire turns perfectly ) but it is taller of course ( I think a little more than 1" ) and it put the upper arm in a high angle even on lowered ride height. I assume it might be dangerous at a big bump that will push the arms up to an even higher angle.
How much angle the moog ball joints and the tubular arms can handle?
I am planning to buy the Speedtech's AFX spindles next year but I think it is even taller than this so it might be worse actually. Well, I really don't know what would be the "normal" look





As you can see the car has to be lowered at least 1,5"-2" to have the right stance so the control arm angle will be higher. The tire diameter is 26"

[David Pozzi]

Speed Tech makes a flatter "high clearance" upper that works with tall spindles. That's what was used on the One Lap Camaro. Any full lock tire contact was on the lower A arm after installing them.

[medbali76]

Speed Tech makes a flatter "high clearance" upper that works with tall spindles. That's what was used on the One Lap Camaro. Any full lock tire contact was on the lower A arm after installing them.

I bought these arms from Damn True forum member who got them with the AFX tall spindles.
I would think these arms were used quite a long time with the AFX tall spindle before Speedtech came out with this new high clearance design.
It would be good to get info from somebody who actually use or used these arms.
There is no any tire contact with the lower A arm as far as I know. The car is in a workshop now and they did not tell me any problem like that.
Do you suggest to replace the arms? Is there a risk to use it like this?

[killer69]

There is no issue with the set up. We have used those UCA with the AFX spindle for years. It is no different than if you used the stock UCA. Yes the Hi Clearance arm will sit flatter but the ball joint is in EXACTLY the same location.... the SHAPE of the Arm is irrelevant as long as there is no contact. a am surprised you can't fit a 255 on the front?? a 8" rim with 5.25 BS fit on some of the cars we have done with stock spindles??? and no contact.

[csouth]

I don't think you should be trying to set stance without a drivetrain on the car. You're going to ad at least 5-600lbs to that front half with the motor and trans installed...

[medbali76]

There is no issue with the set up. We have used those UCA with the AFX spindle for years. It is no different than if you used the stock UCA. Yes the Hi Clearance arm will sit flatter but the ball joint is in EXACTLY the same location.... the SHAPE of the Arm is irrelevant as long as there is no contact. a am surprised you can't fit a 255 on the front?? a 8" rim with 5.25 BS fit on some of the cars we have done with stock spindles??? and no contact.

Thanks, that is sound good.
Well, I dont remember exactly where was the problem with the first setup. The guys in the workshop were looking for the setup that gives the most clearance in the future for street use when you have to turn the wheels lock to lock and even if one of the rim sitting on a bump etc.

[medbali76]

I don't think you should be trying to set stance without a drivetrain on the car. You're going to ad at least 5-600lbs to that front half with the motor and trans installed...

That is one of the good thing with the coil overs. You can set up the stance for example checking tire clearances without all weight and set back to the same height when it got all the weight.
I think she got a lot of weight already. L96 Vortec 6.0 and 6L90E in place

[David Pozzi]

If you want to set ride height really low, try removing any subframe to body mount's or spacers.

[medbali76]

Well,it seems like my setup does not really work well together. The turning radius was decreased already with the steering stops but the Speedtech swaybar is still touching the inner rims and I really do not want to loose any more radius. Honestly I want to get back the original radius. The outer tie rods are very close to the inner rims also I can't even put my small finger between the tie rod and the rim.
I made a few pics to show.



I am thinking on the solutions...
Should I change the wheel width from 9" to 8.5"? (I can't add thicker spacer because I will have problems on the outer side)
Should I change the CCP tall spindle to the ATS AFX tall spindle? (It was in plan anyway however I am not sure it will be able to make big difference here)
Maybe new control arms?
Maybe new swaybar?
Or a new ridetech front kit with the TruTurn?

I would prefer to keep the Speedtech stuff because my front brake is for the C5 spindle but I have to solve this problem so anything is possible I am going to change the complete front if it is necessary.
I appreciate every comment.
Thank you.

[the owl]

I have a very similar set-up (18x9 up front with 265's) and have no clearance issues. Your control arm angles look perfect to me, they look just like mine.

I do have a hotchkis sway bar, I am running a ridetech truturn kit with ridetech spindles (which I highly recommend either this or going to a rack/pinion setup)


I hope this helps!

[medbali76]

I have a very similar set-up (18x9 up front with 265's) and have no clearance issues. Your control arm angles look perfect to me, they look just like mine.

I do have a hotchkis sway bar, I am running a ridetech truturn kit with ridetech spindles (which I highly recommend either this or going to a rack/pinion setup)


I hope this helps!

Thanks. I do know the RideTech kit would solve my problems.
I don't want to change to rack and pinion setup because my Lee steering box is awesome. Really. It is perfect perfect perfect. One of my best buy was that steering box. It was an ebay purchase for 90 bucks. LOL
Nothing wrong with the TruTurn just it would increase my costs a lot because I should change the control arms also.

I thought the Speedtech parts will be good as well with wide wheels.
I really do not understand how the Ridetech kit can work with 10" wide wheels and 275 with no loss on turning radius and why the Speedtech's kit can not.
As you can see on the pics my biggest problem is the swaybar. I still have clearance at the outer tie rod ends. They never touched the inner rims. They are just very close to the inner rims.
Yes, I am using the CCP AFX spindle... but that doesn't make any difference at the swaybar. ( Correct me if I am wrong)
I would buy the ATS AFX spindle if I know for sure that would fix my problem but it is expensive just to give a try.
It seems like my cheapest solution would be to buy new inner rims for the Forgeline wheels to make them 8" or 8.5" instead of 9"

[the owl]

If you went with the TruTurn kit why would you change control arms? Speedtech parts work with wide wheels, the only piece is the tie rod ends which truturn will fix (and helps worlds in handling). On Speedtech's builds they move to a rack and pinion so there is no need for the truturn.

its obvious you need to modify your swaybar or buy a new one.... what swaybar are you currently running?

Edit..... FYI - all of what I am saying is on a 68 camaro not a nova but that shouldn't change anything except for maybe some nova specific swaybars.

Feel free to PM me and I can go into more detail or give you my phone number if you have specific questions. Overall I think your suspension is off to a great start, I wouldn't change anything except the swaybar(new or modify) and add a truturn kit.

[medbali76]

If you went with the TruTurn kit why would you change control arms? Speedtech parts work with wide wheels, the only piece is the tie rod ends which truturn will fix (and helps worlds in handling). On Speedtech's builds they move to a rack and pinion so there is no need for the truturn.

its obvious you need to modify your swaybar or buy a new one.... what swaybar are you currently running?

Edit..... FYI - all of what I am saying is on a 68 camaro not a nova but that shouldn't change anything except for maybe some nova specific swaybars.

Feel free to PM me and I can go into more detail or give you my phone number if you have specific questions. Overall I think your suspension is off to a great start, I wouldn't change anything except the swaybar(new or modify) and add a truturn kit.

I am not sure these control arms work with other manufacturer's parts. All these parts are designed (and tested) to work with their own parts.
They might work but I don't want to spend money just to try different combos.
The swaybar is Speedtech swaybar.
The only thing is not Speedtech's part on the front is the spindle.
That is the CCP tall spindle. It is not that bad part at all. It is not a drop spindle so the front height can be adjusted with the coil over. But that is all.
As you can see It is even allow me to run 18x9 wide wheel without getting problem with the outer tie rod end. It is close but I can live with that.
I have to find solution for the swaybar. That is more important.

The ridetech swaybar looks little better at the edge where my swaybar get contact to the wheel. I might try that one.

[Twentyover]

Well,it seems like my setup does not really work well together. The turning radius was decreased already with the steering stops but the Speedtech swaybar is still touching the inner rims and I really do not want to loose any more radius. Honestly I want to get back the original radius. The outer tie rods are very close to the inner rims also I can't even put my small finger between the tie rod and the rim.
I made a few pics to show.



I am thinking on the solutions...
Should I change the wheel width from 9" to 8.5"? (I can't add thicker spacer because I will have problems on the outer side)
Should I change the CCP tall spindle to the ATS AFX tall spindle? (It was in plan anyway however I am not sure it will be able to make big difference here)
Maybe new control arms?
Maybe new swaybar?
Or a new ridetech front kit with the TruTurn?

I would prefer to keep the Speedtech stuff because my front brake is for the C5 spindle but I have to solve this problem so anything is possible I am going to change the complete front if it is necessary.
I appreciate every comment.
Thank you.

Might want to try putting split collars on the swaybar to prevent any potential side to side movement of the bar?

[killer69]

The issue is the wheel BS. you have to keep in mind some of these parts (like the sway bar) were NEVER DESIGNED to run high back space wheels, once we start putting parts on that were never originally intended things start to contact other things.
We do not MAKE the sway bar, we did not design the sway bar. Possibly the ridetech Muscle bar will work as far as clearance goes but you will have to invent some way to attach it to the control arm as they use a different type and location for the sway bar end link location.
I am going to guess that you are using a 17" wheel?
The other option is to go to a narrower rim like you mentioned I know the following combinations work
17" with 5" BS is about max with the AFX spindle and even then will depend on the wheel barrel profile (depending on what steering arm you have.)
17 with 5.5 is max if using the Unisteer rack ( they supply a shorter steering arm)
18 x 8 with 5,25 BS stock spindle
18 x 9 with 6" bs ON THE AFX SPINDLE will fit but is tight.

I am sure this doesn't confuse the issue at ALL :-)

[medbali76]

The issue is the wheel BS. you have to keep in mind some of these parts (like the sway bar) were NEVER DESIGNED to run high back space wheels, once we start putting parts on that were never originally intended things start to contact other things.
We do not MAKE the sway bar, we did not design the sway bar. Possibly the ridetech Muscle bar will work as far as clearance goes but you will have to invent some way to attach it to the control arm as they use a different type and location for the sway bar end link location.
I am going to guess that you are using a 17" wheel?
The other option is to go to a narrower rim like you mentioned I know the following combinations work
17" with 5" BS is about max with the AFX spindle and even then will depend on the wheel barrel profile (depending on what steering arm you have.)
17 with 5.5 is max if using the Unisteer rack ( they supply a shorter steering arm)
18 x 8 with 5,25 BS stock spindle
18 x 9 with 6" bs ON THE AFX SPINDLE will fit but is tight.

I am sure this doesn't confuse the issue at ALL :-)

Thanks for jumping in again. I appreciate your advices.

The wheel is a Forgeline ZX3R That was originally made for a 2005+ Mustang.
It is a 18x9 with 36 ET (6,4"BS)
I am using a 23mm adapter to be able to use on the Chevy bolt pattern.
That means the BS "dropped" to about 5.5"

[rallystyle]

with the ride tech bar you have to cut the bump stop off the frame. dont know how well it would work with your setup

[killer69]

Thanks for jumping in again. I appreciate your advices.

The wheel is a Forgeline ZX3R That was originally made for a 2005+ Mustang.
It is a 18x9 with 36 ET (6,4"BS)
I am using a 23mm adapter to be able to use on the Chevy bolt pattern.
That means the BS "dropped" to about 5.5"

have you tried the wheel? my Nova had a 18 x 9.5 with 6.5 BS and I still had to eliminate the outer part of the inner wheel well and remove the fender lip. your saying your wheels will be 1/2 further out.

[medbali76]

have you tried the wheel? my Nova had a 18 x 9.5 with 6.5 BS and I still had to eliminate the outer part of the inner wheel well and remove the fender lip. your saying your wheels will be 1/2 further out.

I am using this Forgeline wheel now.
Yes, my wheel is out roughly 18mm ( 0.7" ) compare to your setup.
The outer part of the inner wheel was removed and trimmed the fender lip also to get more room. I could use a slight fender widening on the front like the Blu Balz 68 Camaro but we do not want to come out more with the wheel because of the scrub radius.
How did you get that 18x9.5 wheel work?
No way that BS is working on a stock subframe unless you drive straight only
I am really interesting how your setup looked like
I definitely have to change the swaybar and the upper control arm too. These modification would solve the problem for sure.
The question is which swaybar will work with your arms.
I do not want to decrease the tire and wheel size because it looks so cool and the handling is awesome.

[killer69]

I was using our Protouring subframe