Cuda at SEMA

[Bob Johnson]

He's got it..but I think a friend of Alan's is wanting it..he ran it at Maxton, N. C. last week-end..made 3 passes or so with it..his name is Rabbit..1-706-864-2328..I think Alan's friend was going to buy it as soon as Rabbit got back from Maxton..call him to make sure..Rabbit is pretty much in the know on those blower Mustang 4.6's..He built John Mafucci's that ran 210 or so at Bonneville..he could have gone 220 or so but he wanted to go break his own record..Rabbit ran 230 or so with the motor like yours in a 29 Roadster with a 32 grill.

[Bob Johnson]

Got word from Indy at 5:30 today..The Hemi ran out of oil..Rabbit and The Real had both told me it wasn't detonation..without seeing the engine, both said it had run it out of oil...they were right. Kenny @ Indy said it was a brief moment but it had run dry for a split second...Evidently the engine is going to have to have 20 plus quarts of oil to keep the oil tank/lines/sump supplied with enough oil to keep it from running low. Alan had discussed the oil tank/lines/etc with the pump manufacturer and he thought Indy too..Somehow we got goofed up. We probably have 16 quarts in it but as hard as we're running it, it isn't going to be enough. Those big old hemi Valve Covers and all those lines etc hold a lot of oil.. I guess the drag cars and their sub 10 sec. blast don't need what we're going to need. I'm just glad it didn't decide to turn loose on a road course in a high speed turn.. We're still doing a little research on the intake but I think I'm going to get it and the nitrous set up flow tested to see how it all works..We've got the headers set up for pyrometers where we can tune each cylinder separately this time. going to get Swain to coat the combustion chambers/exhaust ports/bearings etc this time. It's been a bad deal but it could have been much worse if the engine had turned loose and oiled the tires down in that cross wind we were running in..I guess every cloud has a silver lining..

[Bob Johnson]

I need to say that we haven't proven that the Intake is a real problem. Many people are stating it is not our problem. Hogan is a good guy and says he'll do anything we want, but he thinks if we tune it on each cylinder, he feels it will work fine..

[PTAddict]

16 quarts sounds like a heck of a lot of oil to be running around the system outside of the tank, even considering lots of oil lines, etc. This almost sounds like it might be a problem with the motor retaining too much oil in the top end of the motor, either from excessive oil feed to the top end, or poor drainback/scavenging, or both ... Some of the small block Chevy race heads have issues with insufficient drainback if you don't restrict oil flow to the top end. Might be a similar issue.

[Bob Johnson]

16 quarts sounds like a heck of a lot of oil to be running around the system outside of the tank, even considering lots of oil lines, etc. This almost sounds like it might be a problem with the motor retaining too much oil in the top end of the motor, either from excessive oil feed to the top end, or poor drainback/scavenging, or both ... Some of the small block Chevy race heads have issues with insufficient drainback if you don't restrict oil flow to the top end. Might be a similar issue.

I agree..Missle who manufactured the oil pump and OK'd the oiling system doesn't think it's an oiling problem..I'm like you, it seems like a drainback problem..those big hemi valve covers will retain a ton of oil. I want them to agree on the problem..The system was built according to their specs..Top of the motor was perfect..rockers etc weren't hurt a bit..as they wouldn't be if they were swimming in oil..I don't think we have a scavenging problem..we have a lot of return...They aren't used to building engines that are turned up as long as we're turning ours..Their specialty is drag motors..sub 10 sec blasts...

[PTAddict]

I read a few years back about Mark Steilow trashing a motor at One Lap of America due to a top end oil accumulation problem that never showed up on the dyno or street - not until the motor had spent extended time at high revs.

You could do a little experiment. With the motor sitting at the same angle it sits in the car, remove one of the valve covers, construct a temporary dam at the perimeter of the head, and pour a bunch of oil over the top end and see where it flows and how fast.

I don't know that much about dry sumps, but the other thing it seems to me could be an issue is insufficient air/oil separation - you might be pumping pure froth to those bearings after awhile.

[Bob Johnson]

Missle has our whole oiling system..he has a test stand where he can set it up and check the flow..I don't think it would show up the problem we might have if the oil is accumulating in the top end and not getting drained back through though..whole new set of problems for motors that are acclerated for extended periods of time..

[gt1guy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProStreet R/T
A safe starting place is to have the intake manifold volume equal to the CI of the engine.

Can you post pics of the intake manifold? It very well could be a design flaw more than volume issues.

Sequential cylinder tuning is great IF you have a pyrometer in each header tube so you know what each cylinder is doing. W/O that it's totally useless, and in most cases overkill anyway.

Have you measured the plenum volume on your current manifold?

Alan measured it..It was like 320 cu in or so...not near the volume of the engine. We have now put pyrometers in the exhaust headers..Alan has posted pix of the manifold on here somewhere I think. I'll try to get him to do it again...He's covered up right now..
__________________

I would also look upstream from the manifold. What do the throttle bodies flow? What do the cold air plenums running to the t/b's flow? How much does the opening for the cold air intake flow? The best intake manifold in the world is crap if it's not supplied with enough air. The entire intake has to be looked at as a complete system.

Kevin

[Bob Johnson]

I don't know what they flow but everyone said 2 90's are more than enough..We didn't have the cold air system finished while we were running it..just had a K&N filter on each Plenum..We've completely ruled out the intake and detonation causing the damage..Motor wasn't detonating at all Indy said. Just momentarily lost oil pressure..looks like the line from the tank to the pump collapsed under all the suction from the Missle dry sump oil pump...Needless to say, we'll be changine that. We're going to add some more oil volume to 20 qts. I think..

[ProStreet R/T]

Can you post pics of the bearings? Do they show any evidence of being pounded by detonation? or was it indeed just oil starvation on the bottom end?

I agree a pair of 90's is plenty in terms of airflow.

[Bob Johnson]

Alan has pix..I'll try to get him to post them..they looked hammered to me..but I only saw the second row of bearings, and only the cap end..Kenny @ Indy seems positive of his evaluation..convinced it was a momentary loss of oil.. was very pleased with the way the top end looked..looked a little fat but otherwise looked good..no detonation..We're sending the intake over to NOS to flow the nitrous and intake..hopfully I'll make The Year One Experience..going to be close. I'd hate to miss it..it's right in my backyard..Plus they're good guys and friends of mine..That show is destined to be a big deal in the real near future..

[Bob Johnson]

We were running 20W50 Castroil in it to break it in. Indy said to run 20W50 because it was set up a little loose. It was damn cold out there on that airstrip that day. We didn't have the car set up with an oil heater. Had a 100 micron Canton Filter on the dry sump system. Alan had made 5 or so passes in it before I drove it. We had run it easy before hammering it. A friend of mine thinks the 20W50 is way to heavy for the dry sump system but Missle said if the oil is 70 degrees or warmer, it will oil fine. Indy uses a 70 micron filter on their drag engines. We're going to heat the oil tank this time. I just don't have a warm fuzzy feeling with all the different opinions as to what is the culprit. We are going to hear back from Missile tomorrow after he ran the system over the week-end. Maybe I'll get more comfortable then.

[ProStreet R/T]

This is getting interesting.

When they say it was built "loose" exactly how loose? Were you using 1/2 or full groove bearings?

Seems odd that it would collapse a hose, is it possibl you picked up some debris and cloged an oil passage?

Who at Indy built the motor? I've used some of their parts in the past and I hope their engine building is far superior to their quality control.

Maybe post up on http://speedtalk.com/forum/index.php about it? I'm sure Darin and those guys can get it figured out in no time.

[Bob Johnson]

Ken Lazerri built the engine..I'm not sure on the bearings..I only saw 2 halfs..they were beat to hell..I don't think we had a clogged passage..they're supposed to be able to look at the hose and see if it collapsed..hopefully we will get a better idea after Missle looks at the whole oiling system. I just worry about no one wanting to accept the blame...The system was set up according to their information and advice.

[SN65]

Hi Bob,

If I could add a bit in my area of expertize.

If I understand your installation, you are pumping the oil from the pan to a remote collection sump. You are then pumping from that sump to the engine through a filter. Is this right?

The only way you could colapse a hose on the suction side of a pump is if there was some kind of restriction.

You don't have a filter /strainer on the suction side of the pump do you? Filters, etc... should always be on the discharge side of a pump.

I am sure that your oiling system is in good hands. Just a few questions.

Bob

PS: A level sensor in the collection sump would be a good idea. Also, I am assuming that the sump is baffled to keep the oil pump suction flooded at all times.

[preston]

I have always ran a standard -12 braided hose from my trunk mounted tank to the engine. I did have some concerns about collapsing but Weaver said it wouldn't be a problem. I am only running one pressure stage and only rev to 6200 rpms though.

Let me know what you do to heat the oil - getting the oil warm is a big problem on my "street" car even with a water based exchanger, and I"m sure it is putting a lot of wear on my motor, my gauge starts at 140 and I rarely see it budge unless it is warm out and I am putting some load on the motor. The tank even sits right next to the muffler and it gets pretty hot in the trunk but not enough.

I have though about running a nitrous tank blanket around the tank. All the dry sump tank heaters are AC based, which is stupid.

[Bob Johnson]

Alan made a oil reservoir custom for the Cuda..it is baffled..it was built to Missle's spec and approved by them. There is a #12 line coming out of the tank into the pump (suction)..There is a #12 line(pressure) coming out of the pump to the Canton 100 micron filter..then a #12 out of the filter passing back thru the pump into the block..Hemi's have the oil pump on the outside of the block..it runs off the distributor drive gear on the camshaft..there are 3 #12 scavenging lines coming out of the dry sump pan going to the pump..a #16 line going out of the pump back into the reservoir tank..it has a #16 vent on the tank...The 3 #12 scavenging lines create a vacuum which supposedly negates the need for a vacuum pump as I understand it...We didn't have a heater in the tank..we are putting a probe type heater in it this time, but like you say it's AC which is goofy..but I guess they draw so many amps, it would kill your battery..

[Bob Johnson]

look at my post about the clutch/trans. under the trans section..We just don't have any feel for the gears in the trans..

[Charley Lillard]

Bob...I gotta say it sucks to be you right now. I feel for ya.

[SN65]

Hi Bob,

Silly question...

What type of oil pumps are you running? Progressive cavity or Centrifugal?

Bob