Okay, cut the BS why coil overs?

[John Wright]

Absolutely agree, those clips are pathetic, does QA1 provide a replacement with the coilover conversions? My assumption by comments made here is that they do not.

I've not heard much good about those kits, it would seem to me that either a proper outboard coilover, or stock spring/shock arrangement would be superior.

I would think that in many cases the opening needs to be widened to allow the larger shock body to enter through the LCA, otherwise you need to disassemble the LCA from the LBJ to get the shock installed....anyway, if you widen the opening you will most likely cut out the factory bolting location and then have to fab up some sort of new type of lower shock mounting point. I have seen guys plate this area of the LCA with 3/8" thick plate, then drill/tap new holes to mount the lower ends of the shock at the T-bar assembly.

Purchasing a set of tubular LCAs that are already set up for coil overs is an easy alternative.

[1968Maro]

Well yes,

But chaning the mounts on the LCA are not nearly as difficult as modifying the stock sub frame to accept coilovers, this is where I get my "all the extra effort" comment.

[driftinblzr]

I would think that in many cases the opening needs to be widened to allow the larger shock body to enter through the LCA, otherwise you need to disassemble the LCA from the LBJ to get the shock installed....anyway, if you widen the opening you will most likely cut out the factory bolting location and then have to fab up some sort of new type of lower shock mounting point. I have seen guys plate this area of the LCA with 3/8" thick plate, then drill/tap new holes to mount the lower ends of the shock at the T-bar assembly.

On the QA1 ProCoil system, you do ditch the clips. The lower "T-bar" or whatever it's called goes on top of the LCA unlike the OEM shock setup. Two 3/8", IIRC, bolts go do through the T-bar then the LCA. On the underside the bolts are held with nylon lock nuts.

I have a pic, but it's not all that great. Also please ignore the rusty endlink. I got new shorter length ones.

Later, Doug

[bret]

I've done exactly the same thing:
1. Go to the track.
2. Forget to change the adjustment.
3. Make a run, feel lots of body roll.
4. Jump under the car, add to two or three to the current settings (QA1 single adjustable).
5. Make another run, feel less body roll, see time improvement.
6. Finish day, feeling good.
7. Drive home, hate the ride.
8. Put settings back where they were. Enjoy the ride.

jp

This is EXACTLY what you can do with a shockwave...EXCEPT omit step #4. You can adjust air pressure [and soon shock valving] from inside the car.
Definately enjoy the ride!

[Stu Seitz]

Coil overs also provide the ability to change the corner weights of your car.

[JRouche]

I see some guys talking about adjusting, but they are adjusting the shocks, NOT the springs.

Two legitimate uses of coilovers I see here (besides the coolness factor which is legit also) were from falcon and Stu.

Makes it easier to creep up on you preferred ride height. Yup Falcon.

And what Stu said, weight balancing. Its amazing to see how far off the side to side numbers are off. I have a set of digital scales. They are fun to play with. And you can jack the weights around with coilovers. But you still need to adjust the components of the car around to get a proper balance. Stiffening up one side to adjust for an imbalance will solve issues on a car that is really set up. As best as you can. But take it too far and the imbalance is gonna cause more problems. But I think Stu meant it for a car that is really set up and the driver is looking for the "sweet spot". Scales and coilovers can help you find the sweet spot. JR

[JRouche]

This is EXACTLY what you can do with a shockwave...EXCEPT omit step #4. You can adjust air pressure [and soon shock valving] from inside the car.
Definately enjoy the ride!

Not so quick.. He was talking about adjusting the shock valving. Not the spring (I think). You will still have to crawl under the car to adjust the shock valving on the shockwaves. Unless you guys came out with a new product? JR

[terryr]

They could also allow you to move the lower mounting point out nearer the tire. This would make the motion ratio closer to 1 to 1. [with custom lower arms.]



Easier to change springs. Good for race cars.

Easier to package custom suspensions.

[Bryce]

Thanks JR,

ridetech did come out with a new cockpit adjustable shock valving. Kinda like what certain OEM cars have.

One more idea. Coilovers can easily allow multiple mounting locations. So the ride height can be changed dramatically without bottoming out the shock but the suspension geometry will suffer. This would mainly be for a rear suspension setup when changing from roadcourse to drag. You can raise the car by changing the lower C/O mounting position.

[wmhjr]

Thanks JR,

ridetech did come out with a new cockpit adjustable shock valving. Kinda like what certain OEM cars have.

Related question. Has anyone ever had one of those OEM cars that had adjustable suspension that they really liked from a performance perspective? Not talking about "load level" type stuff - but actual performance. I wish i could say I have, but I've never liked the ones I've driven.

[Bryce]

from what I know, it adjusts compression and rebound at the same time. So a stiff shock verse a lighter shock.

[exwestracer]

They could also allow you to move the lower mounting point out nearer the tire. This would make the motion ratio closer to 1 to 1. [with custom lower arms.]

Easier to change springs. Good for race cars.

Easier to package custom suspensions.

Yes. Even though there is a lot of work involved in moving that lower mount out (including cutting the stock spring bucket out and moving the upper mount), it allows you to run much lower spring rates and remove a lot of the load from the control arm. Look at the lower control arms available from AFCO, etc. and you will see that they are MUCH lighter due to the force being transferred to the spring way out by the ball joint. Springs get lighter (3" vs. 5") as well. Not much gain in comfort, but a big step in reducing unsprung weight which gets more and more important as you go to low profile tires...

[JRouche]

Yes. Springs get lighter (3" vs. 5") as well. Not much gain in comfort, but a big step in reducing unsprung weight which gets more and more important as you go to low profile tires...

Unsprung weight and suspension springs..

Always something to look at. We used to have heavy leaf springs up front, prolly the worst for weight to spring value. Then we got coil springs. Much better. Then a car company used strait spring bars for suspending the car. Torsion bars, even better unsprung weight issues. OH, how bout a rubber spring. Thats pretty light. Air springs. They have to be the lightest. But Id love to learn about a cantilever suspension.

But for a simple reduction in unsprung weight Im thinking air springs are the simplest. And not without some performance. Talk about reducing unsprung weight, rubber air springs are the king. JR

[Chevy]

I see some guys talking about adjusting, but they are adjusting the shocks, NOT the springs.

Two legitimate uses of coilovers I see here (besides the coolness factor which is legit also) were from falcon and Stu.

Makes it easier to creep up on you preferred ride height. Yup Falcon.

And what Stu said, weight balancing. Its amazing to see how far off the side to side numbers are off. I have a set of digital scales. They are fun to play with. And you can jack the weights around with coilovers. But you still need to adjust the components of the car around to get a proper balance. Stiffening up one side to adjust for an imbalance will solve issues on a car that is really set up. As best as you can. But take it too far and the imbalance is gonna cause more problems. But I think Stu meant it for a car that is really set up and the driver is looking for the "sweet spot". Scales and coilovers can help you find the sweet spot. JR

Agree completely with JR and of course the two originally posters, Falcon and Stu. These two elements are CRITICAL to properly setting up the car for dynamic handling situations like the autocross or being able to set the old car up so it can run with (and even beat) a modern sports car in the twisties. As JR originally pointed out, nearly all short/long A-arm suspensions are designed so that the LCA is parrellel to the ground at ride height. To ensure that the car can be set up so that the LCAs are parrellel to the ground at ride height, you need coilovers--especially if the car has other mods and/or is a work in progress. When you relocate your battery to the trunk, do you want to have to buy a new set of springs? When you do a motor swap, ditto? How about when you buy a new set of tires with a little different aspect ratio? Coilovers solves all these issues with a few simple turns of the the wrench. The alternative is a whole collection of different rate/length springs and the time to swap them in and out, which gets expensive and tedious.

The other issue, that of weight jacking in the chassis, is also super-critical for dynamic situations and another element tha can't be accomplished without either coilovers or a vast collection of springs to swap in and out. It also changes anytime you move any weigh around in the car. With coilovers, that is not a problem...just a few turns away from being back where you need it.

These two elements make the difference between a well-sorted out classic Pro-Touring car that can run with modern Corvettes on the track and and an old car that someone has bolted some modern parts on.

[70camaro406]

Is adjusting the shocks (variable control) easier on a coil-over shock since it's easier to access over a traditional coil spring with the variable shock inside? I mean, since you can get variable shocks for both types of springs, is it just as easy to adjust the shocks on both types? Or is the coil-over shock easier to adjust? I know that I want the double adjustable shocks for my 2nd gen Camaro, just unsure about the spring, like the original poster.

[Bryce]

when the shock is inside the spring its hard to reach the adjuster knobs. where a coilover has easy access to the knobs.

[70camaro406]

I figured it would be harder. But is it still possible to reach them?

[LSx_88_Ciera]

Not really related to coil-overs but here is a good visualization of the effects ride height has on suspension geometry and ride height seemed to be a frequent topic in here.
http://www.racingaspirations.com/?p=286
I am working on a version based on the one above that allows you to enter the specs instead of the dragging points around.

[Roadbuster]

I figured it would be harder. But is it still possible to reach them?

Some adjuster knobs have a allen head in the center and the shocks come with a hex driver to get to the adjuster through the springs. Doesn't always work, and you might have to lift the car to make the adjustments, but better than disassembly.

A point in general with any type of shock is that there is a design sweet spot. The size of this sweet spot is proportional to the length of the shock. For our cars it is not much about +/- 0.5 inches. For a front suspension that is about +/- 1 inch of ride height adjustment. Running the shock out side this parameter will still allow it to work but will compromise performance on either compression or rebound.

For example: Varishock VAS 11111-350 coil overs have 3.50 inches of travel, which translates to 7 inches of wheel travel. The Compressed Length is 9.30 inches, Extended Length is 12.80, Minimum Ride Height of 10.70 inches, Maximum Ride Height of 11.40 inches. The minimum Ride Height is defined as 40% of travel available for compression (bump), 60% of travel available for extension (rebound). The maximum Ride Height: 60% of travel available for compression (bump), 40% of travel available for extension (rebound). All this is from the instruction sheet.

So for these coil overs 11.40 - 10.70 = 0.7 inches which translates to 1.4 inches of adjustable ride height. That is why shims or multiple mounting holes are required to adjust the ride height without pushing the shock outside its spec range.

Note that this range is for the shock. If you use a coil over, air spring or conventional spring you still want to set up the shock to be in its optimum range for the best performace.

Jon

[70camaro406]

Thanks for all the great info, Jon.