Okay, cut the BS why coil overs?

[1968Maro]

Another stupid question authored by me, so let me start this way.



I have never driven a 1st Gen Camaro with coil over suspension, so I am hoping for real advice by people who have done the switch.

I am talking about the front suspension only

I am at the point on my car where if I am going to do a coil over conversion on the front frame, I need to do it now. But I am still unconvinced that this won't be a lot of time and effort that is ultimately not going to gain me that much more performance.

I am looking for ride quality, ride performance, and ride height in that order. I am not going to be entering into the autocross anytime soon, but I want the confidence to know I can chase down a modern car on the freeway if I wanted to.

It seems the number one thing that coilovers gain you is ride stiffness adjustability. Beyond that my understanding is that the gains in responsiveness are marginal (not night and day) over a traditional spring and shock suspension. (I am only referring to the front suspension, not the leafs!!!

However if you only want your car to ride one way IMO that seems like a tremendous amount of effort for not much gain.

I am speaking as the inexperienced here so please set me straight!

[parsonsj]

David,

Coilovers are just a way to package springs and shocks. That's all. By themselves they only allow one thing: adjustability.

Adjustability includes ride height, spring rate (assuming one uses the nice packaging afforded by coilovers to change springs), and bump and/or rebound shock behavior.

The adjustability of the shock depends on the type/brand of the shock. Some have single adjustability (both bump and rebound are adjusted with a single knob), and some have double adjustability (bump and rebound are adjusted separately).

One final comment: you said if you only want your car to ride one way IMO that seems like a tremendous amount of effort for not much gain. You'd need to clarify what a "tremendous amount of effort" means, but the nice thing about using a coilover package is that you can fuss with it until you get your car to ride the way you want. With a traditional/OEM shock and spring, you don't have the adjustability to do that. You're stuck with what somebody else thinks is the right way for your car to ride.

jp

[driftinblzr]

I don't have a F-body but I have a 2nd gen S-Series Blazer, with the stock V6, that I have QA1 ProCoil single adjustable system installed on. The front suspension is of the same basic design so that's why I'm commenting.

I ordered the kit with the higher rate 550lb/in springs ($450). I loved the ride but I couldn't get the drop I wanted. I found a set of NIB 350lb/in springs to install ($50). Plus I got the thrust bearing kit and spanner wrenches ($45).

I finally got the drop I wanted but now I feel as if the front end is undersprung. I do have the adjustability but I also dropped $545 total on a kit that lowered me 2" and I never adjust the damping on.

For the same money I could have went with some high spring rate circle track springs and ride height adjusters, plus some decent shocks and probably been cheaper and happier with the ride.

That's just my $0.02 I could be wrong.

Later, Doug

[wmhjr]

I've had this same discussion with Marcus a while back. I hate to sound like a broken record, but call him and you'll learn the pros and cons of coilovers, air, tubulars, etc. Suffice it to say that coilovers can provide adjustment in dampening, but not really ride height (after installed). At least not while maintaining good performance - at least that's what I took away. I'm not the expert and defer to those who are.

[Jim Nilsen]

It's like more work now or more work later. Once coilovers are in they are much less time consuming to change the ride and stance. Changing stock type springs and shocks is more time consuming. The cost is all variable on both.

I stayed with the transverse leaf on my C4 suspension because I had it and I wanted to have a baseline to start with. I would never know what kind of ride it would give me if I didn't use what I already had. I also will know that if I go to coilovers what that differnce is and then I will be able to go back if I don't like them.

It's all about the cost to me and that all depends what you are starting with. If you have no real parts to start with and a good budget I would think coilovers are the way to go.

Then there is AIRIDE SUSPENSION !!!!

[wmhjr]

So would one way to describe it be...

With coilovers, while building the car you can swap in different spring and shock combinations more easily to adjust both height and performance with more detail...

But once you're done, there is little if any mechanical advantage with them?

So, if you have a known combination that somebody can provide specific recommendations the advantage is debatable? But if you have a pretty "Non-standard" build, coilovers could really help out?

[John Wright]

Coil-over or traditional coil spring both work about the same as far as I'm concerned. Shocks for either style can be single or double adjustable, if you so choose. There is nothing wrong with either choice provided you match the shocks up accordingly.

For stock LCAs, I like the traditional coil spring/shock package.

IMHO, those little 5/16" factory shock bolts/clips were not designed to support the whole front end of the car...just provide enough strength to hold the shock in place as it works to control the suspension movements. Several tubular LCAs were designed with coil overs in mind so they beefed this area up.

[JRouche]

I dont know but I see alot of talk about ride height and coilovers and similar products (air springs). Not just here on this thread but everywhere.

Coilovers wont give you any ride height changes that wont ruin your suspension geometry. The same can be said for air springs or doing it the old fashioned way with cut springs.

You can only change the ride height two ways. Move the control arm mounting locations (new cross member) or a modified knuckle. And I say only two ways. There may be more. But for performance purposses a changing of the spring wont gain you performance. You will get the wanted ride hieght change. But in all cases you will screw up the handling. It may feel better, and look better. But the reality of it is you wreck the handling. That is if the car was set up correctly to begin with.

You will take the lower control arms and move them from a horizontal attitude to a pointing down attitude. So during compression of the suspension you will start out pushing the lower ball joint out. Then the big swap. As the lower control arm continues up the ball joint passes the three or nine O-clock position and starts to pull the spindle in.

The ol flip flop. And thats just looking at the lower control arm. Usually we dont focus on it so much because we engineer it to be level at ride height, to remove the flip flop.

Now... We have to look at the upper CA. Thats a whole diff animal because of all the various suspensions out there. Some of them can actually benefit from a change in attitude (angle). But if you dont know for sure then its just a crap shoot. Better to know where the short comings are for the uppers than just hope a spring change will help. And it usually doesnt. Poor upper arm geometry is usually so sever that a proper fix is needed.

So anyway. My thought on coilovers is they should not be used for ride height needs. Wrong drug for the disease. They are great for racing where a quick swap for spring pressures are needed. They work great for what they were designed for, which wasnt ride height changes. JR

[JRouche]

IMHO, those little 5/16" factory shock bolts/clips were not designed to support the whole front end of the car...just provide enough strength to hold the shock in place as it works to control the suspension movements.

Not to question but I think 5/16" steel is plenty strong. I dont think the factory even used anything that thick (its over a 1/4"). Maybe you meant the common 3/16" tabs? JR

[parsonsj]

Good point. While "ruin" is a strong word, the front suspension geometry has a finite sweet spot. Someone once wrote:

Ride height: the position of the body relative to the tires. A common way to improve a car's handling (and looks) is to lower the ride height. This achieves a lower center of gravity (always good) with stiffer springs (usually good). Lowering the car too much can cause problems since most suspensions are designed for 2 to 2.5 inches of bump travel. If you lower your car 1.5 inches, you may only have an inch of reasonable bump geometry left before undesirable side effects occur.

[Bryce]

I dont think its about adjusting ride height. I think its more setting ride height. Since spring length and rate are fixed elements its hard to dial in your suspension ride height to exactly what you designed it to be. So using a coilover or any adjustable spring mount will allow you to dial in the height, to some degree. I am talking about an 1" max.

[monteboy84]

But guys.... they look cool!!

In all seriousness, the guys who are going to benefit most from coilovers are the ones who like to drive to the track, then drive home. You can very easily swap coilover shocks and springs (if mounted outboard of the frame) to change rate, and can more easily access adjustments on the shock with having them mounted outside the frame. JRouche is right about ride height, you can't change it without screwing up geometry, so let's ignore that feature. They're easier to install/remove, and they're easier to change rate and shock characteristics. Beyond that, if your stock style arrangement is properly dialed, you shouldn't see a difference.

Not to question but I think 5/16" steel is plenty strong. I dont think the factory even used anything that thick (its over a 1/4"). Maybe you meant the common 3/16" tabs? JR

He was referring to applications where the stock lower shock bolts are used to mount coilovers. They're 5/16" diameter bolts, normally only used to attach the shock for damping.

[John Wright]

He was referring to applications where the stock lower shock bolts are used to mount coilovers. They're 5/16" diameter bolts, normally only used to attach the shock for damping.

What really grabs my attention aren't so much the 5/16" bolts, but those cheesy sheetmetal fender style clips that they use as a means of securing the bottom of the shock to the LCA....I can't imagine that is designed to carry the whole weight of the car...especially the "shock" load(pun intended) during compression of the suspension when hitting a large bump in the road.

[6spdcamaro]

I like coil-overs because of adjustability ( i know everyone else already said that). This year i went to the autocross in a 31 ford with qa1 coil-overs. Took a pretty good chunk of time off with simple adjustments, just turning the knob. On the way home the ride was extremely uncomfortable so at the next gas station we sat under the car, clicked the knobs back to where they were. The ride quality was a HUGE difference, and so was the handling. It was amazing how different it felt after adjusting the bump/ rebound. If you plan on tracking the car and driving to/from the track, i would definitely recommend doing the work now or you'll regret it.

[parsonsj]

I've done exactly the same thing:
1. Go to the track.
2. Forget to change the adjustment.
3. Make a run, feel lots of body roll.
4. Jump under the car, add to two or three to the current settings (QA1 single adjustable).
5. Make another run, feel less body roll, see time improvement.
6. Finish day, feeling good.
7. Drive home, hate the ride.
8. Put settings back where they were. Enjoy the ride.

jp

[Vegas69]

You don't need a coilover for adjustable shock settings. Coil overs are beautiful because they allow the perfect stance in a reasonable amount of time. Especially in a race enviroment when sometimes you need to go up instead of down.

[wmhjr]

I like coil-overs because of adjustability ( i know everyone else already said that). This year i went to the autocross in a 31 ford with qa1 coil-overs. Took a pretty good chunk of time off with simple adjustments, just turning the knob. On the way home the ride was extremely uncomfortable so at the next gas station we sat under the car, clicked the knobs back to where they were. The ride quality was a HUGE difference, and so was the handling. It was amazing how different it felt after adjusting the bump/ rebound. If you plan on tracking the car and driving to/from the track, i would definitely recommend doing the work now or you'll regret it.

Adjustable shocks will provide the exact same result in this case. No need for coilovers. I think that's what Vegas was also saying.

[monteboy84]

What really grabs my attention aren't so much the 5/16" bolts, but those cheesy sheetmetal fender style clips that they use as a means of securing the bottom of the shock to the LCA....I can't imagine that is designed to carry the whole weight of the car...especially the "shock" load(pun intended) during compression of the suspension when hitting a large bump in the road.

Absolutely agree, those clips are pathetic, does QA1 provide a replacement with the coilover conversions? My assumption by comments made here is that they do not.

I've not heard much good about those kits, it would seem to me that either a proper outboard coilover, or stock spring/shock arrangement would be superior.

[agent784]

Budget wise I've found that the Hotchkis TVS system works for me because it handles just like a modern performance car. For now it was the most cost effective way to make the car handle without breaking the bank.

As far as appearance, only us enthusiasts will notice the difference by looking at the car. Otherwise, most people could care less. Most people are more likely to like your car based on your choice of color before your suspension setup. Go with what you like. But if you have the money, I say go with the coils like DSE or Global West. Hell if you have money to burn, put in a corvette subframe and call it a day.

[wmhjr]

I'm honestly a little leary of ANY of the kits. I'd rather get something tailored for my specific build and needs. That's why I talked to SCC.

One of the reasons as an example: Look at Hotchkiss #CHESTR013 - which claims to be a steering upgrade for '64-7 GM A-bodies - including Buick, Old and Pontiac. Now I know that they at least differentiated the Pontiac from the Chevy. However, though I'm not sure I was under the impression that the Pontiac and Olds were the same, but not the Buick - or vice versa. It's been a while, but for some reason I've got it in my mind that the drag links were not identical on all 3 brands. I'm just not sure here, and the point is that "packages" are tricky things.