Rick's tanks at the track

[Stielow]

I have been trying to make EFI engines work with first Gen F cars since 1993. I have tried a lot of different things over the years.

I will write a longer reply tonight on what I found that works and doesn't work.

I can say Hector at Rick's has helped me make a few differnt set ups. All of them a little better than the last. The set up I put in JA and my new '69 works the best.

Mark Stielow

Back in 1993 I had my first experiences with a ’69 Camaro and add on EFI fuel pumps. I bolted the pump to the frame rail added a return port to the tank and started to drive the car. As I was walking back to my house after the car quit for the 2nd time I had time to reflect on where I had gone wrong. The stock ’69 Camaro fuel pick up sock was falling apart and sending crap in to my pump causing it to fail.

I added a pre-filter and solved that problem. I left for One Lap of America and the engine would fuel starve at anything lower than half a tank on road courses. I also blew the high pressure fuel line off the fuel pump at Michigan International Raceway and had a large fire that year. (Kyle Tucker was driving at the time and had to bail out of the car) The fuel pump I was using only had barb fittings on it. The high cornering loads at MIS caused the line to pull part way off. But not enough to kill the engine.

· Lesson 1Stock fuel pick up won’t work
· Lesson 2 Don’t use barb fittings

On the Red Witch I used an ATL fuel cell with a remote mounted fuel pump. It worked fine just a pain to fill at the gas station with the foam in it. It also required cutting the trunk out of the car. It would pull down to about a ¼ tank before fuel starvation.

· Lesson 3 Fuel Cells work

When I was building the Trasher I added a “Fuel Bucket” to the inside of the stock tank. The ATL (http://www.atlinc.com/catalogs.html) (Page 20 – 21) fuel bucket had 3 check balls in it and the fuel pick up. I added a sump to the rear of the tank and put the fuel bucket in it. To get access to the inside of the tank I cut an access hole in the top of the tank. I closed out the hole in the tank with an ATL tank plate and back up ring. ATL no longer sells these due to a law suit. It also always seemed to seep a little fuel after you filled the fuel tank. I think this was due to the lack of a proper vent and pressure would build up in the tank and push fuel past the gaskets.

That system worked OK. I could use the fuel down to ¼ tank on a race track. I didn’t like the idea of cutting and welding the stock tank. I lined the inside of the tank after I modified them to keep them from rusting. It was all a pain. I used something similar to this on the Mule. Both of these set up uses external Bosch fuel pumps.

I had Ricks build me a stainless steel tank for Camaro X with the check balls and a fuel bucket in the tank and a Walbro pump in the tank. It worked OK and would pull fuel down to ¼ tank on track. On this tank Rick’s still had not sorted out the vent and it would push fuel out of the tank when full. I added a vent to the filler neck that tied into the Rick’s vent and seem to reduce the problem.

· Lesson 4 Fuel Buckets work fair

When I did Jack Ass I had had years of experience with low fuel handling problems at work.

A little background. People suggested using two fuel pumps and a surge tank. This will work on a race car but will not work in production. Fuel pumps need fuel to lubricate them. Transfer pumps will work for a while dry but not very long. If you plan to use electric fuel pump to feed a surge tank then some day you will burn up your transfer pumps.

What we came up with is a fuel pump setup that sits in its own buck the fills the bucket with “jet” pumps. Jet pump are siphon pumps that use some of the fuel flow to run through an orifice to create a pressure drop to pump fuel. Many factory fuel pumps have jet pumps. Many new cars have split fuel tanks and need one jet pump to keep the bucket full and one to pull fuel from the other half of the tank. Corvettes have two tanks connected by a transfer tube and Cadillac CTS’s have saddle tanks and a transfer tube. I had Hector at Rick’s build me a split tank for a ’69 Camaro with the ring in it to allow a stock CTS-V fuel pump module. The fuel pump module sits on one half and a ½” tube runs to the other side of the tank to pick up fuel.

During the Motorstate Challenge Charley and I forgot to put fuel in JA after the road race Saturday night due to doing a photo shoot. We went to the Autocross the next day. Again we forgot to add fuel. I did my 3 runs then Charley got into the car and made two runs. Waiting to make the third run he noticed the fuel gauge "E". Charley made 1 more run on the autocross course with no fuel stumble before we could get more fuel. So the set up we have will pull the tank to empty in a heavy lateral environment.

· Lesson 5 Stock stuff works!

I went through 5 tanks from Rick’s before I got something that I feel works. I would like to thank Hector for all his help building me one off tanks. I consider this all development. There later tanks also have the vent system working much better now.

A quick note on fuel pumps. If you run a big pump for a long time at low consumption like on Hot Rod Power Tour they over heat. (ask Charley or Jody) I like stock style intake pumps with FSCMs to step down the voltage at cruise to help to not heat up the fuel.

Now the down side – none of this is cheap. Just my 2 cents…

Mark

[66ls2]

Thanks for all the input that was one of my concerns when exploring the surge tank idea was the primary pump sucking air and burning out and I was told not to worry. I am going to call hector, pay the money and get a good tank.
Thanks again

[Z06vet]

Mark- let me run this by you quickly. I am still learning about the tank/pump setups. I have a 67 camaro with LS1. The previous owner installed everything, including an 01 F-body tank mounted in the trunk. Its not ideal & I dont care for it in the trunk. Yes I smell fumes at times, but I can run this tank on the street until the gauge pegs on "E" with no stravation problems. Is there any way to use the stock 01 pump/pickup assy in a stock style 67 tank? I want to put a tank in the stock location, but dont want to have all these problems were discussing. I am building a nice 69 right now, and was planning a Rick's tank- now im not sure. Thanks for taking the time to help everyone out.
Scott

[CarlC]

Mark,

Thanks for sharing your experiences. When you posted pics of the fuel module for JA I was in the middle of trying to find one that will come close to fitting a stock/aftermarket tank. Most modules are too tall to fit without major trunk surgery or adding a sump to the bottom of the tank.

What year CTS-V does the JA module come from?

Thanks again for sharing.

[Bow Tie 67]

Another thanks Mark, I had to cut windows in the basket on my 4th gen Camaro to stop surging in corners. I know that sounds like going backwards, but it worked.

I'm curious if I could mod the Ricks tank I have now. At 1/2 tank I experience surging in high g corners. Do you happen to remember the width and depth of the cts unit?

[T/Aaron]

Oh boy, I wonder if I should post pics of mine after I'm finished? Mine is a bit different...

[CarlC]

Don't wonder. Do. We like different.

[MCMLXIX]

Oh boy, I wonder if I should post pics of mine after I'm finished? Mine is a bit different...

Post during.. dont wait till your done.... show progress....

[RSX302]

It's been a long time waiting...I talk to Hector the other day and it sounds promising that I will get my creation soon. He said it was all tacked up and he was able to stay about 80% to my drawing. Once I get it, I will post pictures of what I can. Looks like the pump is going to be mounted offset in the tank instead of the middle(passenger side). They also made there own version of stainless check balls. Can't wait!

[RSX302]

My Rick's Tank is finely here. Here's some pics....

I think it turned out nice. There are a couple areas I shook my head at, but I think overall I think it will work.

I put some captions verbiage over the issue pictures that I will inform Hector about.






Not sure about the vents at the top corners? They go to the back of the tank up higher then the threaded bungs in front of the tank. I see fuel coming out every time I land on the power or fill to the top. I will try, but I think they will be plugged and a vented from the fuel neck as Mark said.


Problem Photo: Fuel will go right around the sump to the other side of the tank. Should of had a baffle tack welded on each side.


Solution: Stuffed 4" fuel cell foam in 1.5" gap to stop or dramatically slow fuel from going around. Very tight fit..my fingers and arm were sore..shouldn't move.


Unfortunately with the A1000 pump, it wouldn't allow for a second baffle.





More Fuel Cell Foam to help.

[Flash68]

Very cool Ron. Should be a nice setup with your little tweaks. :D

[formula]

I am in no way bashing rick's or hector as it seems like they build an excellent product and I know on custom jobs it is always a mix of what the customer wants and what you think will work...but do they do much product testing on their own? It sure seems like they are relying a lot on customer input and not much on their own knowledge..or are their tanks designed more for drag or cruising and we're trying to push them beyond what they're designed for?

I may not understand how this part of the business works, as I am totally new to the EFI game, so please forgive me if this is dumb.

[The WidowMaker]

Not sure about the vents at the top corners? They go to the back of the tank up higher then the threaded bungs in front of the tank. I see fuel coming out every time I land on the power or fill to the top. I will try, but I think they will be plugged and a vented from the fuel neck as Mark said.

were you planning on leaving the vents as is, or running an external line from them that went a little higher with a loop?

i would like to see a few more pics of the sump. im not really grasping what it looks like. is that a solid box with a few checkballs? i cant tell if the back is open or not. it looks like a reflection on it though.

[alnoe]

PLease post how well this works. I am on the fence about which tank to buy and don't want to spend a ton of coin for poor results.

Thanks for posting the pics!

Al

[RSX302]

I am in no way bashing rick's or hector as it seems like they build an excellent product and I know on custom jobs it is always a mix of what the customer wants and what you think will work...but do they do much product testing on their own? It sure seems like they are relying a lot on customer input and not much on their own knowledge..or are their tanks designed more for drag or cruising and we're trying to push them beyond what they're designed for?

I may not understand how this part of the business works, as I am totally new to the EFI game, so please forgive me if this is dumb.

I think you are right...

They have a nich in stainless fabrication, but R&D seems as its up to us. Hector was awesome to work with and very intrested in different methods of fuel control.

I pretty much told Hector that there is a pro-touring community out there that is looking for a EFI factory tank replacement that will handle 1.2g's in all directions. (without starving at lower fuel levels) If we get it right, could equal much more sales.

[RSX302]

were you planning on leaving the vents as is, or running an external line from them that went a little higher with a loop?

i would like to see a few more pics of the sump. im not really grasping what it looks like. is that a solid box with a few checkballs? i cant tell if the back is open or not. it looks like a reflection on it though.

I could probably go in a couple different directions with this. One is the higher external loop as you said or I was think about plugging off one side tank vent (the side I can't get to) and slip a rubber hose inside the tank on the other and run up to the fill neck. Possibly put a very small loop in the neck? I wouldn't think it needs to be very big for vapor venting only?

Yes, it is a solid box that is open to the tank on top. The back was a screw up on there part. It should of had plates there to slow the fuel down. This is why I put the fuel cell foam back there. The idea is when you're in a corner,(either direction) the fuel builds up against the outside of the sump wall and has to flow into the check ball filling the sump. With the pick up and return in the sump box, it keeps the pick up tube submerged in fuel.

I can't get a finished picture of the sump. (sealed up) This is what Hector sent me during the build.

[RSX302]

PLease post how well this works. I am on the fence about which tank to buy and don't want to spend a ton of coin for poor results.

Thanks for posting the pics!

Al

If this work (as I think it should after correcting the minor items) It'll be worth it.

I think this design would work even better if an in-tank style pump is mounted on the top, in the middle of the sump. The baffling could go back in that spot where my A1000 sits.

I will absolutely post the results. I plan on testing how low of fuel it can go before it starves. (In all directions---1.2g's)

Oh yea...not cheap $$$... Hector quoted me $1800.. First payment was $900 and I havent seen the second half of the bill yet to see if he gave me any breaks for being so patient. This was without the A1000 pump. I will find out! I think a designers credit! LOL

[Vegas69]

Ron, once you have spent all the time and money perfecting the tank, I'll call Hector and order mine. haha Isn't it great being the guinea pig?

That whole loop in the fuel vent line doesn't work very well. What ends up happening is you get some fuel caught in the bottom of the loop and once the tank builds pressure, it belches that trapped fuel. I'm using a one quart resoirvoir in the trunk with no loops and it's working well. I've tried a loop, loops, no loops with just a k&n, different routings and finally came up with the deal I'm using.

[The WidowMaker]

What ends up happening is you get some fuel caught in the bottom of the loop and once the tank builds pressure, it belches that trapped fuel.

interesting. i'm glad i read that part.

on our newest fire engines, they are running a vented cap with another vent somewhere that is plumbed back into the filler neck. this was nice since you dont have trouble while filling with fuel wanting to come back up the neck. but, it does start burping fuel into the neck if you really pack it full.

not to get off topic, but what are the oems running?

[ErikLS2]

OEM's use the charcoal cannister system and it works great. I'm quite familiar with these systems and am considering using one on my 69 camaro with an LS2, although I'm a ways away from that part of the build. Since I'm using the oem computer, the purge solenoid is already on the engine and the software to control it is obvoiusly there as well. One problem is the system is designed to diagnose itself for leaks as there are EPA limitations to fuel vapor emissions. It basically does this with a pressure sensor on the fuel tank or cannister which it uses to monitor pressure in the tank (less than 1 psi) and thereby determine if there is a leak or not and if there is turn on the MIL. It gets more complicated than that but it's not really relevant to our situtation.Getting it to work without setting a trouble code might be a challenge but it should be able to handle all the venting requirements easily. I'm n sure if it's possible to turn off the trouble code in tuning but still have the purge system work properly.

The biggest challenge is where to mount the cannister and plumbing the vent lines between it and the tank and running an additional line up to the purge valve on the engine. If you can accomplish that I suspect any venting issues will be solved.

I know this is not the main topic of this thread but I read enough commments about venting that I felt I might be able to contribute something. Like I said I'm not quite there yet on my car but I would be happy to investigate a little more on this if it would interest anyone.