Ridetech OUT, 4 link Watts-link in.

[Tweak]

So I have amazing bump and No bind characteristics.



The compromise is 5% of Anti-Squat



Looks very DSE?

[Tweak]

So I thought it was about time to add the body and fix it to the Roll Axis to see if the results differ.
Excuse my crude body model, its about establishing movement. If anyone has a 3d scanned cad model of a 1st gen floor, id be happy to pay for a copy.

When moving the diff this model only had like 0.9mm of Rear Steer, but with the tyres fixed to the ground and the body rolling on the Roll Axis it now has 4.25mm of Rear Steer. Very Interesting.

That's with 2 degrees of body roll.. That's my next question...How much body roll does my car have?

[Tweak]

Halved the rear steer as you would expect after moving the top mounts inboard.

Should be able to tune it out, need to get under car and look and measure options.

[stab6902]

That's with 2 degrees of body roll.. That's my next question...How much body roll does my car have?

I'd guess 2-3 degrees per g would be in the ballpark. You could do the math with spring rates, sway bar rates, center of gravity location, roll centers, etc, but at the end of the day it's still a calculation that will likely have quite a bit of error. If you really want to know, I think you'd be best off driving in a circle at maximum lateral g's (think skidpad test), have someone take a picture of the back of the vehicle, and then use photo editing software to measure the angle between the vehicle body and the rear axle (hopefully you'll be able to see it under the car). You don't want to measure body angle relative to the ground because then you'd be including tire deflection.

[Steve Chryssos]

When it articulates, ie going down a driveway in reverse and the rear end twist due to uneven surface, the diff rear steers.
This also happens on very uneven roads.
If you only drive on flat roads you have no issue, here in New Zealand we have awesome roads that really test a cars suspension......

For the record: Rear suspension does not experience anywhere near full articulation during high performance driving on any road at any appreciable speed. Effective spring rate, sway bar design and driver skills would keep your car close to level.

That little nugget of wisdom is common knowledge to anyone who has ever taken part in a high performance driving event. ...and most people agree that you should also drive slowly when backing out of your driveway -- especially at a steep angle. Complaining about rear roll steer while going in reverse at some speed approaching zero is silly and misleading.

If you ever visit the United States, I strongly encourage you to attend one of the dozens of high performance pro-touring driving events that take place from coast to coast. If that happens, you will see that the pro-touring community is STRONG. We don't bash each other. We HELP each other with tuning, and driving skills -- shade, and whatever is needed. We cheer each other on. In the evenings, we loiter together in hotel parking lots. You will also find that ALL of the available suspension options found on on typical 3400lb cars routinely compete within TENTHS of one second of each other at any given event. Sometimes that delta shrinks to HUNDREDTHS of a second with the biggest variable ALWAYS being DRIVER skill. ..and ridetech-equipped vehicles are ALWAYS competitive. ridetech cars win regularly and you can almost always find Ridetech cars finishing in the top ten. Our easy to install 4-link swaps the lead with products from our friendly competitors week in and week out -- Detroit Speed, Speedtech, Schwartz Performance, No Limit Engineering, TCI. You'll see the same brands at each event. That's how little difference exists in the real world. On public roads, that delta shrinks to zero point zero. As a company Ridetech works very hard to develop suspension that works well and is easy to install. The Easy-To-Install mandate may seem to be at odds with ultimate suspension geometry -- but only in the message board Keyboard Kung Fu universe. We don't race on paper.

..and I absolutely, positively A-100% assure you that the Ridetech cars -- Bolt-on 4-link and all -- experience loads far in excess to anything you might experience on any winding public New Zealand road at legal speeds or close.


Be part of the community. In the meantime.... Here's that same Ridetech 4-link rear suspension and TruTurn front suspension system in action experiencing well over 1g of lateral load on sticky 200 TW tires.


Bolt-On 4-Links, click HERE

Cheers,
Steve

[Tweak]

Wow!! Seems to me ridetch is a company that focuses on profit not performance
Very ignorant response

[2yellow69]

Wow!! Seems to me ridetch is a company that focuses on profit not performance
Very ignorant response

Ignorant response? Please. You are slamming a product that 99.9% of drivers will never see the full benefit of. I know the limiting factor would be me, not the ridetech 4 link in the back of my Camaro. We are talking about a BOLT IN suspension for a car that is over 50 YEARS OLD!!! With a solid axle. That was originally designed with leaf springs. A unit body/subframe car that flexes like a wet noodle compared to a modern tube chassis race car.

Some modern cars actually design some rear steer into the rear suspension to prevent things like lift-throttle oversteer.

As for profit, if a company doesn't make any money they can't bring out new parts for people to buy. If there was an unsafe aspect to a part they would not still be in business. The negative reviews on this site alone would ruin most companies. There are a couple of companies that were prominent on this site who no longer exist because of bad business practices.

By no means am I saying you shouldn't design your own rear suspension. Kudos to you! I get it, you want perfection.
I don't have the time or the desire to do that so I bought what works for me, as have many others. I have dealt with ridetech a few times and have nothing but good things to say about the experiences. I also have some of their competitors parts. I don't work for any them. I don't receive any money from them. The parts I bought work. Plain and simple. There is no reason to bash a company and their parts because you need that last 1% of performance and their product doesn't do it (and wasn't meant for it).

I typically stay out of these types of arguments/disagreements but I had to say something. I have dealt with many of the vendors on this site and have had good experiences.

[Tweak]

Ignorant response? Please. You are slamming a product that 99.9% of drivers will never see the full benefit of. I know the limiting factor would be me, not the ridetech 4 link in the back of my Camaro. We are talking about a BOLT IN suspension for a car that is over 50 YEARS OLD!!! With a solid axle. That was originally designed with leaf springs. A unit body/subframe car that flexes like a wet noodle compared to a modern tube chassis race car.

Some modern cars actually design some rear steer into the rear suspension to prevent things like lift-throttle oversteer.

As for profit, if a company doesn't make any money they can't bring out new parts for people to buy. If there was an unsafe aspect to a part they would not still be in business. The negative reviews on this site alone would ruin most companies. There are a couple of companies that were prominent on this site who no longer exist because of bad business practices.

By no means am I saying you shouldn't design your own rear suspension. Kudos to you! I get it, you want perfection.
I don't have the time or the desire to do that so I bought what works for me, as have many others. I have dealt with ridetech a few times and have nothing but good things to say about the experiences. I also have some of their competitors parts. I don't work for any them. I don't receive any money from them. The parts I bought work. Plain and simple. There is no reason to bash a company and their parts because you need that last 1% of performance and their product doesn't do it (and wasn't meant for it).

I typically stay out of these types of arguments/disagreements but I had to say something. I have dealt with many of the vendors on this site and have had good experiences.

I'm trying to build a better rear end. Why don't you all **** off if you have nothing productive to say.

If you read the whole thread and not just the bits that suit you you would see I haven't bagged there products like you suggest.
What I have said is if you don't have there ride height, they have issues.

Ridtech is a company that will say you are wrong, we are right!! Rather than listen to constructive advise regarding quality R&D experience.

That is why you are just as ignorant.

Move along mate.

Actually don't bother replying, ill **** off and deal with people that don't have there head stuck up there arse.

Sorry to anyone following that wanted my final specs to build there own quality rear end.

So much for being a " supportive community"

[slammed68]

I'm trying to build a better rear end. Why don't you all **** off if you have nothing productive to say.

If you read the whole thread and not just the bits that suit you you would see I haven't bagged there products like you suggest.
What I have said is if you don't have there ride height, they have issues.

Ridtech is a company that will say you are wrong, we are right!! Rather than listen to constructive advise regarding quality R&D experience.

That is why you are just as ignorant.

Move along mate.

Actually don't bother replying, ill **** off and deal with people that don't have there head stuck up there arse.

Sorry to anyone following that wanted my final specs to build there own quality rear end.

So much for being a " supportive community"

Steve @ ridetech has over 5k posts on this site. Pretty much the definition of supporting the community.

Call others ignorant all you want but you totally dismissed a product based on what you THOUGHT to be poor performance specs and thinking curved roads dont exist anywhere else. You seemed to have a decent understanding of engineering so when you initially said you could build something way better, I figured you had thought it through. Most of this thread has been you asking for information because you dont fully understand the theory behind suspension. That would be like setting your tesla on fire, telling them they dont know **** about electric motors, and then googling "how to build an electric motor".

[eville]

If you read the whole thread and not just the bits that suit you you would see I haven't bagged there products like you suggest.

You called their product junk. Meets my definition of bagging a product.

[jetmech442]

Man, I'm so conflicted posting here with all the anger, but I’m going to share my experiences on my Cutlass in hopes of furthering a better path for this thread.


Below are my lessons learned/thoughts/suggestions from designing and running my 3link at the road course.
1) 100% antisquat is not great for either coming out of corners or going into braking zones. Mine is adjustable from 30-160AS in ~30 degree increments. The next time I go to the track I'm starting off on the 30% mark because I never want to experience that wicked wheel hop coming down from speed ever again. I'd rather have to be smoother on throttle out of turns than bring a duffel bag full of clean underwear.

2) The 3 link will offer more articulation than parallel 4 bars, and if you have to adjust it at the track, 1 bar is much easier to move and deal with than getting 2 the exact same length while maintaining pinion angle(especially in the grass on a hot day). That being sad, our cars don't travel a whole lot in the rear, so I'm not sure I'd ever notice the extra articulation available. But I wanted what I considered the best and so I went the 3 link route. My advice here is to devour every word Ron Sutton has ever posted here on this subject. His posts along with the others that have contributed and debated with him improved my understanding in a way that wouldn't have been possible just by reading Milken in the bubble bath while Katy Perry sang away my frustration.

3) I purposefully designed 3 settings into my frame mount on the lower arms so I can could change my rear steer to turn out (helps rotate for autocross, turn in (high speed stability for roadcourses), and neutral. to do this I loaded 270lbs of salt into the driver seat(a sad sight) and welded the brackets in the right height. so now I have an asymetric setup. great when it's just me, but when a friend or instructor is in the car, the setup is not perfect. I'm not going to say that I'm good enough to fully notice when the instructor is in the car...I'm sure I eventually will, but by that time hopefully I'm on my own. Ride height severely effects this so for now I am kinda stuck with my current size tire and tire choices.

4) You need to have the front roll center nailed down before you set the range for your watts link. The pivot of the watts will create the roll center and the line connecting those two will be a roll moment. some of the best money I ever spent on my cutlass was the Fays2 Watts link. It is frame mounted, which means the roll center doesn't migrate with the suspension movement. Stable roll centers are key contributors to predictable cars. In less than 3 minutes, I can throw the pivot to the top and have a stupid fun street car that throttle steers everywhere, drop it way down to the point of understeer, or...find just the right position for the track I'm at for best grip. Unless you know the front roll center though, you would need a ton of adjustment range to cover all the bases.

I hope this helps in your design considerations. I also hope that you can be part of a community of gearheads that don’t insult and flame posters/sponsors. I’ve bought my share of parts that didn’t work out as advertised. I realize with all my old ass frame and mods to the car that some stuff just doesn’t work out(especially if it’s a bolt on). When stuff like that happens, I pass it on to the next guy at a discount and get to work learning and making something myself if needed(kinda like you are doing).
Some of the best knowledge comes about from open debate and idea exchange between experienced racers/manufacturers in environments that encourage open dialogue, I hope this thread can become one of those examples.


-Scott

[SSLance]

^ Great post!!

[dhutton]

Man, I'm so conflicted posting here with all the anger, but I’m going to share my experiences on my Cutlass in hopes of furthering a better path for this thread.


Below are my lessons learned/thoughts/suggestions from designing and running my 3link at the road course.
1) 100% antisquat is not great for either coming out of corners or going into braking zones. Mine is adjustable from 30-160AS in ~30 degree increments. The next time I go to the track I'm starting off on the 30% mark because I never want to experience that wicked wheel hop coming down from speed ever again. I'd rather have to be smoother on throttle out of turns than bring a duffel bag full of clean underwear.

2) The 3 link will offer more articulation than parallel 4 bars, and if you have to adjust it at the track, 1 bar is much easier to move and deal with than getting 2 the exact same length while maintaining pinion angle(especially in the grass on a hot day). That being sad, our cars don't travel a whole lot in the rear, so I'm not sure I'd ever notice the extra articulation available. But I wanted what I considered the best and so I went the 3 link route. My advice here is to devour every word Ron Sutton has ever posted here on this subject. His posts along with the others that have contributed and debated with him improved my understanding in a way that wouldn't have been possible just by reading Milken in the bubble bath while Katy Perry sang away my frustration.

3) I purposefully designed 3 settings into my frame mount on the lower arms so I can could change my rear steer to turn out (helps rotate for autocross, turn in (high speed stability for roadcourses), and neutral. to do this I loaded 270lbs of salt into the driver seat(a sad sight) and welded the brackets in the right height. so now I have an asymetric setup. great when it's just me, but when a friend or instructor is in the car, the setup is not perfect. I'm not going to say that I'm good enough to fully notice when the instructor is in the car...I'm sure I eventually will, but by that time hopefully I'm on my own. Ride height severely effects this so for now I am kinda stuck with my current size tire and tire choices.

4) You need to have the front roll center nailed down before you set the range for your watts link. The pivot of the watts will create the roll center and the line connecting those two will be a roll moment. some of the best money I ever spent on my cutlass was the Fays2 Watts link. It is frame mounted, which means the roll center doesn't migrate with the suspension movement. Stable roll centers are key contributors to predictable cars. In less than 3 minutes, I can throw the pivot to the top and have a stupid fun street car that throttle steers everywhere, drop it way down to the point of understeer, or...find just the right position for the track I'm at for best grip. Unless you know the front roll center though, you would need a ton of adjustment range to cover all the bases.

I hope this helps in your design considerations. I also hope that you can be part of a community of gearheads that don’t insult and flame posters/sponsors. I’ve bought my share of parts that didn’t work out as advertised. I realize with all my old ass frame and mods to the car that some stuff just doesn’t work out(especially if it’s a bolt on). When stuff like that happens, I pass it on to the next guy at a discount and get to work learning and making something myself if needed(kinda like you are doing).
Some of the best knowledge comes about from open debate and idea exchange between experienced racers/manufacturers in environments that encourage open dialogue, I hope this thread can become one of those examples.


-Scott

I agree, great post but all of Ron Sutton’s threads have been deleted. Sort of a shame, there was some good info to be gleaned from them.

Don

[David Pozzi]

They are available on the Wayback Machine internet archive:
Rear Suspension: https://web.archive.org/web/20170624...ck-Performance
Front Suspension: https://web.archive.org/web/20180425...ck-Performance
Aero: https://web.archive.org/web/20180717...ck-Performance

[jetmech442]

They are available on the Wayback Machine internet archive:
Rear Suspension: https://web.archive.org/web/20170624...ck-Performance
Front Suspension: https://web.archive.org/web/20180425...ck-Performance
Aero: https://web.archive.org/web/20180717...ck-Performance

Wow thank you David! I've been searching for the disc brake one with Ron and Tobin for about a month, didn't know they were actually removed.

[dhutton]

They are available on the Wayback Machine internet archive:
Rear Suspension: https://web.archive.org/web/20170624...ck-Performance
Front Suspension: https://web.archive.org/web/20180425...ck-Performance
Aero: https://web.archive.org/web/20180717...ck-Performance

I can’t open these links.

Don

[68Formula]

I can’t open these links.

Don

I had no problem.

[anguilla1980]

They work for me too.

[dhutton]

Working for me now.

Don

[Gmc427]

love the vid on ridetechs site promoting their new 'R joints' and basically rubbishing the old joints they still supply,btw probably 90% of ridetech 'equipped'cars are still running.