LS vs BB advice needed

[andrewb70]

Except you're 200 pounds less than a 454...You should just sell me that junk 6.0L and go back to the 454 :-)

Andrew

[Fbird]

Except you're 200 pounds less than a 454...You should just sell me that junk 6.0L and go back to the 454 :-)

Andrew

Yes, weight saving is a benefit. But, i could have cut weight with some aluminum BB heads. Still not as light as a LS but every bit helps.

I think i will put the whole LS setup for sale when i get the time. Maybe i can get lucky and find a guy with a BB that wants to go LS.

[badazz81z28]

Nothing is wrong. The car has been through two tuners and was just dyno tuned. The fact is that with a 401 hp number, the whole swap was a waste of time and money. I was at the same power level with my old 454.

A 90mm throttle body was talked about. It wouldn’t add much more power. The ECM is a 038 newer style. Gearing is at 4:10 and converter is 2500. Really not much more that can be done and im not dumping another $1000 into it for a different cam and tune just to gain 20 or so hp.

400 rear hp is very low for a cammed 6.0. Of course dynos are tuning tools, how does it run? Even if it’s the same as a 454, it’s lighter.

[andrewb70]

Four hundred RWHP through an automatic and a fairly loose converter is about right for a 6.0L with a relatively mild cam. I have a buddy with a LS3 and BTR racing stage 2 LS3 cam with a 4L65 and Vigilante TC (3200 stall) in a 66 Fairlane. The car only dynoed at 360rwhp (who cares...LOL)....but it has run a best of 11.60@113mph at a race weight of 3900 pounds. The thing frigin rips...I would put it up against a 454 powered car any day!

My GTO is 4000 pounds with me driving and I have run a best of 12.60@112 with a clunky Richmond 6 speed and street tires. It made 420rwhp. I wouldn't stick the 600HP 502 that it had in it before even if someone gave it to me for free.

Andrew

[Fbird]

400 rear hp is very low for a cammed 6.0. Of course dynos are tuning tools, how does it run? Even if it’s the same as a 454, it’s lighter.

I would be happy with 460-475 rwhp. At 400, its no better than what i had. Even though its lighter, roughly $6000 spent to shed a couple hundred pounds isnt a good trade off. Unfortunately with the bad weather here i havent had a chance to drive it except on and off the trailer. Honestly, even if it drives great i still wouldnt be happy with those numbers. The car used to run 9s in the quarter so im accustomed to what power feels like.

I have looked into the MAST products in the past but at this point, i dont think that they would be better than what i got. I might gain some HP with one of their tunes but i cant see a 60-75 hp gain. Before i totally ditch this whole setup any other suggestions?

[Fbird]

Four hundred RWHP through an automatic and a fairly loose converter is about right for a 6.0L with a relatively mild cam. I have a buddy with a LS3 and BTR racing stage 2 LS3 cam with a 4L65 and Vigilante TC (3200 stall) in a 66 Fairlane. The car only dynoed at 360rwhp (who cares...LOL)....but it has run a best of 11.60@113mph at a race weight of 3900 pounds. The thing frigin rips...I would put it up against a 454 powered car any day!

My GTO is 4000 pounds with me driving and I have run a best of 12.60@112 with a clunky Richmond 6 speed and street tires. It made 420rwhp. I wouldn't stick the 600HP 502 that it had in it before even if someone gave it to me for free.

Andrew

Thanks for that info. That makes me feel a little better. Maybe im just not accustomed to these LS engines yet?

[andrewb70]

Thanks for that info. That makes me feel a little better. Maybe im just not accustomed to these LS engines yet?

If you're used to running 9s, then I can see the disappointment. For me, performance is not measured just in quarter mile numbers. My GTO was quicker with the 502...I don't care. The improvement in drivability alone was worth every penny. After swapping out the 502, I put more miles on the car in one year than I had in the 6 years prior. I made long road trips from KY to Chicago, took a detour to MI and did a track day, then drove out to Colorado and Wyoming and back through Chicago and too KY. You can read all about it in my swap thread.

My combination is very mild and uses a stock LS7 cam. I like how tame the engine is, but if I floor it in first gear, it will break the tires loose.

Since you have not really put a lot of miles on the car, I would hold off on making any drastic decisions. I have found that cars with automatic transmissions can be very deceptive. My buddies Fairlane actually feels pretty slow, but the time slips don't lie. I also daily drive my 67 Cougar that has a mild 5.3L in it and that thing rips too...but it is only 3400 pounds with me in it.

It is also entirely possible that something is wrong with your trans or converter. Sometimes if those are not right, the car will feel like a dog...

GTO thread:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...TO-Version-2-0

Cougar build:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/1...7-Cougar-build

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

This has to be a joke right? You had a BBC that was capable of 9s and your disappointed a 6.0 LS production engine isn't comparable to that? Well duh! IMHO a 1/4 mile comparison is a pointless comparison unless the cars intent is to be a 1/4 mile bruiser. An LS swap is to take your old car and put modern power, drivability, handling, benefits of fuel injection etc. all in one. If you want nothing more than drag strip car, I agree the LS investment isn't needed. If you want a daily driver that runs good like a modern car and still puts out 500hp while getting 20mpg, the LS is the ticket. I think you had unrealistic expectations....However put a turbo or two on that engine and it will run that fast or faster in the right set-up. If your car isn't fun, your combination isn't right. A stock 6.0 has no issues making 500 crank HP.

The only N/A LS engine I have seen run 9s is a LS7 with MAST heads and even in that configuration much more all around better engine than the comparable 454.



https://www.powernationtv.com/episod...60-on-a-budget

[Fbird]

If you're used to running 9s, then I can see the disappointment. For me, performance is not measured just in quarter mile numbers. My GTO was quicker with the 502...I don't care. The improvement in drivability alone was worth every penny. After swapping out the 502, I put more miles on the car in one year than I had in the 6 years prior. I made long road trips from KY to Chicago, took a detour to MI and did a track day, then drove out to Colorado and Wyoming and back through Chicago and too KY. You can read all about it in my swap thread.

My combination is very mild and uses a stock LS7 cam. I like how tame the engine is, but if I floor it in first gear, it will break the tires loose.

Since you have not really put a lot of miles on the car, I would hold off on making any drastic decisions. I have found that cars with automatic transmissions can be very deceptive. My buddies Fairlane actually feels pretty slow, but the time slips don't lie. I also daily drive my 67 Cougar that has a mild 5.3L in it and that thing rips too...but it is only 3400 pounds with me in it.

It is also entirely possible that something is wrong with your trans or converter. Sometimes if those are not right, the car will feel like a dog...

GTO thread:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...TO-Version-2-0

Cougar build:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...7-Cougar-build

Andrew

Thanks for the info. I started reading through your GTO build. Long but good info it there.

When weather gets better ill drive it around and see what its like. Worst case scenero if i dont like it i can give the car to the wife. Im sure it will be a good cruiser.

[Fbird]

This has to be a joke right? You had a BBC that was capable of 9s and your disappointed a 6.0 LS production engine isn't comparable to that? Well duh! IMHO a 1/4 mile comparison is a pointless comparison unless the cars intent is to be a 1/4 mile bruiser. An LS swap is to take your old car and put modern power, drivability, handling, benefits of fuel injection etc. all in one. If you want nothing more than drag strip car, I agree the LS investment isn't needed. If you want a daily driver that runs good like a modern car and still puts out 500hp while getting 20mpg, the LS is the ticket. I think you had unrealistic expectations....However put a turbo or two on that engine and it will run that fast or faster in the right set-up. If your car isn't fun, your combination isn't right. A stock 6.0 has no issues making 500 crank HP.

The only N/A LS engine I have seen run 9s is a LS7 with MAST heads and even in that configuration much more all around better engine than the comparable 454.



https://www.powernationtv.com/episod...60-on-a-budget

No joke and i wasn’t expecting a 9 second engine. I had stated that as the power level that i have been at. That was with the old 540. Since then the car has had a 396 and 454 that were mild street engines. So i wasnt expecting a 1/4 engine as i took the car off the track years ago.

I dont think i was unrealistic with the engine swap at all. 460-475 hp is not unrealistic on these engines from what people have been saying. Is is unrealistic to expect that power with better drivability and fuel mileage? I dont think so. So i dont see how you can say i had unrealistic expectations to expect what others are getting. From what ive seen so far, i dont believe that a stock 6.0 is anywhere near making 500hp. Mine is not stock and im nowhere near that number.

Also, i dont see how anything can be wrong when ive had 2 tuners with their hands on it. Not to mention the 3 hours of dyno time making countless changes and many hours research. Unfortunately, it just is what it is.

[badazz81z28]

No joke and i wasn’t expecting a 9 second engine. I had stated that as the power level that i have been at. That was with the old 540. Since then the car has had a 396 and 454 that were mild street engines. So i wasnt expecting a 1/4 engine as i took the car off the track years ago.



I dont think i was unrealistic with the engine swap at all. 460-475 hp is not unrealistic on these engines from what people have been saying. Is is unrealistic to expect that power with better drivability and fuel mileage? I dont think so. So i dont see how you can say i had unrealistic expectations to expect what others are getting. From what ive seen so far, i dont believe that a stock 6.0 is anywhere near making 500hp. Mine is not stock and im nowhere near that number.

Also, i dont see how anything can be wrong when ive had 2 tuners with their hands on it. Not to mention the 3 hours of dyno time making countless changes and many hours research. Unfortunately, it just is what it is.

You can’t put all your faith in a dyno # as dynos can be told to spit out any number you want. You need to drive the car and see how it performs. If it’s not strong, something ain’t right. You are the only one....ever! Have I heard complain about the power or a 6.0 especially with a cam!

[Fbird]

You can’t put all your faith in a dyno # as dynos can be told to spit out any number you want. You need to drive the car and see how it performs. If it’s not strong, something ain’t right. You are the only one....ever! Have I heard complain about the power or a 6.0 especially with a cam!

Thanks for all your info and advice.

Four hundred RWHP through an automatic and a fairly loose converter is about right for a 6.0L with a relatively mild cam. I have a buddy with a LS3 and BTR racing stage 2 LS3 cam with a 4L65 and Vigilante TC (3200 stall) in a 66 Fairlane. The car only dynoed at 360rwhp (who cares...LOL)....but it has run a best of 11.60@113mph at a race weight of 3900 pounds. The thing frigin rips...I would put it up against a 454 powered car any day!

My GTO is 4000 pounds with me driving and I have run a best of 12.60@112 with a clunky Richmond 6 speed and street tires. It made 420rwhp. I wouldn't stick the 600HP 502 that it had in it before even if someone gave it to me for free.

Andrew

Do you recall what size tires in the rear you and your friend was running?

[andrewb70]

Thanks for all your info and advice.



Do you recall what size tires in the rear you and your friend was running?

I was running the Falken R615 tire in the 295/40-18 size. My buddy made his passes on a tiny 235/60-15 MT drag radial.

Andrew

[Bad Bowtie]

FBird,
I understand your dilemma... I am one who is sitting on the fence right now with a new ZZ454 (w/ camshaft change) sitting in my subframe waiting on mating to the body of our 68 Camaro (waiting on paint). Across the room I'm staring at a LS7 from a ZO6 that is being stored for a friend of mine and if I could talk him out of it I'm just chomping at the idea of pulling my 454 out and dropping that in. I know there is a big difference in a LS7 vs hopped up 6.0. So in my situation comparing the 2 engines I have a ZZ454 (est. 485-490hp) and LS7 427 (proven 505hp) my 454 is going to be running MPFI Holley so both are going to need tuning. In my situation the change of engine mounts, oil pan swap on the LS7 finding a location for the dry sump, new headers, serpentine kit that will the fit ac compressor in the chassis, possible radiator change, and adding flex plate for automatic trans all adds up for me just to get a few more hp and maybe just a little better fuel mileage. That's where I have to make the choice. But also for me I know if I ever sell the car the LS7 is going to bring more money than if it had the 454 that's just the way things happen.
Hope you can eventually get the HP numbers your looking for.

BB

[badazz81z28]

FBird,
I understand your dilemma... I am one who is sitting on the fence right now with a new ZZ454 (w/ camshaft change) sitting in my subframe waiting on mating to the body of our 68 Camaro (waiting on paint). Across the room I'm staring at a LS7 from a ZO6 that is being stored for a friend of mine and if I could talk him out of it I'm just chomping at the idea of pulling my 454 out and dropping that in. I know there is a big difference in a LS7 vs hopped up 6.0. So in my situation comparing the 2 engines I have a ZZ454 (est. 485-490hp) and LS7 427 (proven 505hp) my 454 is going to be running MPFI Holley so both are going to need tuning. In my situation the change of engine mounts, oil pan swap on the LS7 finding a location for the dry sump, new headers, serpentine kit that will the fit ac compressor in the chassis, possible radiator change, and adding flex plate for automatic trans all adds up for me just to get a few more hp and maybe just a little better fuel mileage. That's where I have to make the choice. But also for me I know if I ever sell the car the LS7 is going to bring more money than if it had the 454 that's just the way things happen.
Hope you can eventually get the HP numbers your looking for.

BB

It really comes down to what you're looking for. I'm pretty confident my LS7 Camaro will wax the floor of any Camaro with a BBC between the fenders. The power, the lightness, the 7000RPM redline makes it a hands down an all around better engine for the street/strip/autocross/road course. Where massive BBC power prevails is straight line performance. If that's all you want, that probably is the best way to go. The swap has been done so many times, finding the parts you need isn't difficult. When I sold my 454 parts and my LS1, its offset the LS7 cost significantly where the swap really only cost me a few grand and that was "want" cost more than essential. The OPs comparison of the 454 and $6K on the 6.0...sell the 454 and that 6.0 isn't that much of a costly upgrade (if the 454 is as good as represented).
Theres a reason no production performance car uses large block/large head cube engines anymore. These SB LS heads flow comparable aftermarket BBC head #s and they are significantly lighter and produce comparable power #s. Its a no brainer for a performance vehicle.

http://www.roadkill.com/700hp-shooto...own-big-block/

[Bad Bowtie]

It really comes down to what you're looking for. I'm pretty confident my LS7 Camaro will wax the floor of any Camaro with a BBC between the fenders. The power, the lightness, the 7000RPM redline makes it a hands down an all around better engine for the street/strip/autocross/road course. Where massive BBC power prevails is straight line performance. If that's all you want, that probably is the best way to go. The swap has been done so many times, finding the parts you need isn't difficult. When I sold my 454 parts and my LS1, its offset the LS7 cost significantly where the swap really only cost me a few grand and that was "want" cost more than essential. The OPs comparison of the 454 and $6K on the 6.0...sell the 454 and that 6.0 isn't that much of a costly upgrade (if the 454 is as good as represented).
Theres a reason no production performance car uses large block/large head cube engines anymore. These SB LS heads flow comparable aftermarket BBC head #s and they are significantly lighter and produce comparable power #s. Its a no brainer for a performance vehicle.

http://www.roadkill.com/700hp-shooto...own-big-block/

I agree with this on several levels, the only real reason I have that 454 in mine now was because I started building it for a friend of mine and half way through he decides to sell the car he was putting it in and gave me a GREAT deal on it. I'm not over trying to convince my buddy to sell me that LS7 and I would do exactly as you and sell off the BBC stuff, but once that subframe get mated to the body I'm not changing it. I'm really down on my big block stash anyway so I'm not replacing it and I think I'm gonna start collecting LS stuff as I come across it

BB

[Interceptor5588]

I've tried making a Pontiac 400 more modern and reliable with a Sniper EFI. Started and ran better, but mileage was no better than the nice lean-tuned QJ, the exhaust still smelled rich no matter the tune, and 2 Sniper units in a row failed and left me on the side of the road. NEVER AGAIN. Currently swapping in an aluminum 5.3 turbo setup and not looking back. I expect it will make similar HP to the Pontiac 400 NA, and then blow it out of the water with a turbo. and still be a couple hundred lbs lighter. All with tried and true combinations.

If you like just cruising 200 miles a year and polishing and showing your ride and bragging about torque and fiddling with carbs and distributors, then go ahead with that BBC. If you like to actually DRIVE your car across the country worry-free, there's only one way to go. Yes the cost is high but the OEM engine controls are proven to run for 100's of 1000's of miles; never had anything fail on one since owning new cars and trucks since 1991. True, the big-block V8 looks and feel and originality are important, but aren't worth **** when sitting on the deck of a tow truck … twice.

[showdog75]

I think most people look at the overall package as the reason for a LS swap. I'd guess a aluminum LS making 400 hp is nearly the same as a iron big block making 500 when you consider the weight savings. The difference in mpg and efficiency is a no brainer. I'm doing my swap because I want to do Route 66 as well as the Power Tour. A cantankerous big block would take the fun right out of that. If all you want is power then maybe the big block is better but I'll take less power but much more linear and reliability overall.

[badazz81z28]

I think most people look at the overall package as the reason for a LS swap. I'd guess a aluminum LS making 400 hp is nearly the same as a iron big block making 500 when you consider the weight savings. The difference in mpg and efficiency is a no brainer. I'm doing my swap because I want to do Route 66 as well as the Power Tour. A cantankerous big block would take the fun right out of that. If all you want is power then maybe the big block is better but I'll take less power but much more linear and reliability overall.

There are lots of things to things to think about that you don't realize until its done. BBC is cool, powerful and a good street/strip bruiser. I know in my sec gen...the BBC required front coils. The driver side valve cover hit the master cylinder. The passenger side header hit the AC box and my favorite...my intake and carb wouldn't fit under the flat hood. All that headache for 9-10mpg and a nice strip car. The LS is a small package, the aftermarket supports it greatly. Same power #s, fun factor because its light, 20mpg and starts right up and doesn't die on me because its 55 degrees outside. Its an amazing platform to have. I'm not bias at all...I have been through all iterations and happiest with what I currently have. 50 years from now because are still going to be doing these LS swaps...Its the new SBC 350 of the new generation.


The OP should call Texas Speed and Performance and talk with Jason. Tell him you have a 6.0 and want it to be a monster. He will set you up with a nice set of CNC work for your OEM heads and a cam that will amaze you in the power #s.

[andrewb70]

This thread is highly entertaining :-)

Andrew