American Motors Xperimental full frame

[Norm Peterson]

A decoupled 3-link is certainly a unique choice for a street-drivable car, though this build of yours still has a fairly short wheelbase.

I assume that you'll be triangulating where that sort-of-U-shaped bar attaches, as the harness bar isn't going to be very rigid in bending and the 3rd link loads will be significant.


Norm

[Ron S]

No worries Norm, I'm not done, this thing is so over built, I'm pretty sure it won't fall off. Wheelbase ended up at 105ish. Cool part is, I can run it in torque arm mode if I'm going to do alot of street driving, change from one design to the other is less then 30 minutes.

[813Demon340]

Glad to see you're back at it. Sometimes its best to walk away from things for a bit to get clarity and focus. Your build is some great inspiration for this AMX owner!

[Ron S]

Started with the front changes, control arms will be getting moved up an inch and forward .625. Never really liked the LCA mounts on this clip, so I cut old mounts off, and started making new ones. Still have to design and build the front mounts, but I'm getting there.

[preston]

>A decoupled 3-link is certainly a unique choice for a street-drivable car,

Norm any other comments on using a decoupled 3 link on a "street car". I think I read Ron Sutton say it would begin binding at 2+" of travel, and I would think it might bang and crash around a bit. I know it won't bother Ron Schwarz but I'm curious if you have ever ridden/driven in a car with a decoupled 3 link ?

Great work Ron, getting Sutton's input must be invaluable. I intend to go that way myself, I totally missed all his posts until recently been reading them like a book.

[Norm Peterson]

No direct experience, but I think that transitioning the loads back and forth between the acceleration link and the brake link is where the most time and experimentation will occur. Much like it was with Unbalanced Engineering's decoupled torque arm a decade ago, which I know was discussed over at C-C.com. IIRC there was at least one person over on FRRAX.com (forget who it was, now) working with that one.

Kinematically it's over-constrained (that 'bind' thing), but with the right compliances it can be made to work at least over some range of suspension travel. I know I've seen 'sprung' links used in circle track racing. Not sure if anybody has ever tried damping those but doing so might allow the use of softer link springs (less bind) or some sort of dual-rate arrangement where the soft rate is mainly there to accommodate bump travel.


Norm

[Eric Howell]

I'm so happy to see you are back at this Ron! Any plans to add any type of adjustment to the lower mounts?

[Ron S]

Funny Preston, I will be the first to admit that I don't know what I'm doing on suspension design. I've always copied a factory design, figuring no one had more money to spend then GM on design R&D. Knowing what roll center, ackerman, and bump steer are, means nothing without knowing how to apply them with something that works. I do think some of us have a good brain, for what work well, and will be strong when it comes to chassis design. Knowing precisely where on the chassis to weld those parts, (when it comes to link mounts), probably should be left to the pro's.

On the 3 link, their is no question in my mind, that the decoupled 3 link is the most tunable rear suspension design available. Being able to tune both acceleration , and deceleration is invaluable. Whether I'm skilled enough to tune it properly is another question, I'm looking forward to the challenge.

Ron Sutton likes two different designs when it comes to the decoupled 3 link. One involved a bumper for accel, and a second link and bumper for decel. The second design use a spring for accel, and a shock absorber with bump stops for the decel. I haven't desided which I will run yet, I designed my brackets etc. so I can run either. And of course the torque arm mounts are still in the car, so I always have that option if I'm going to do a lot of street driving, only 3 bolts to install that big bitch.

I did double up where the control arms mount to the brackets, one for strength, although I think the 3/16" bracket is more then enough. Two: to make assembly easier, trying to slide the control arm between those two tight brackets would have been a pain, sliding them on the little circles will call for less curse words.

[Ron S]

No Eric, I'm going to trust in my suspension designer, all the adjustability is on the uppers in this car. Thought about doing slugs, but decided I'm just going to give the Mr. Sutton what he wants.

[Ron S]

Finishing up the rear mounts, Dailey dry sump allows me to run a tie bar across the two mounts, made it removable just in case I don't always have that engine. The bad part about the Dailey system is the oil pump hit the engine mount badly, so I had to cut it off of the frame. Next on the list is building a new passenger side mount, and engine bracket. I have a game plan for the fronts, we will see if it has the cool fact or not.

[Eric Howell]

Can't go wrong with Mr. Sutton. When it's my turn I am going the same route. I'm stuck using the C5/6 knuckles because I want AWD for some reason. Kinda shame to watch all these front ends get cut up or scrapped.

Anyway, this is my favorite build on the whole internets. Not much for the bolt on or what's cool now deal. Tons of inspiration in this thread. Thank you.

[Ron S]

Motor set back in with dry sump pan and pump. Absolutely no room for a motor mount on the passenger side. I want it to be easy to get the motor in and out, Greg suggested a motor plate, but I feel like I'm to far along. I got an idea but we'll see how it works out. The adapter I made to fit the mismatched pan and pump worked out pretty good.

[Ron S]

Did figure a way to sneak a motor mount between the headers and dry sump pump. Did it opposite the drivers side, put bushing on motor bracket rather then frame. Hangs way below dry sump pan, so bolts are easy to get out.

[Ron S]

Another couple brackets made, only 100 more to go. Proud of the center bracket that doubles as a control arm and a motor mount bracket. Now I get to start on the front of the control arms, yippee. Thanks, Ron Sutton LOL

[Torquedork]

Glad to see you back at it Ron. Figured out what you are going to do with the quarter panels?

[Ron S]

I will do what we discussed earlier, Humpster eyebrow with shortened window opening. I know your dying for me to get on that, unfortunately the suspension comes first, then I have to finish the front fenders for the new wheelbase change, and get them off to have the molds made. Then I'll get on the quarters, can't wait.

[Zanie]

Good to see you back on such an awesome project!

[Ron Sutton]

Hey Everyone ... those of you posting & those of you reading along ...

I figured I'd jump on here real quick and clear up some things on the Decoupled 3-Link. I describe them as the most tunable, highest grip rear suspension linkage available for solid axle race cars.

Race cars.

I'll get the street usage thing out of the way first, then discuss why Decoupled 3-Links work so well. I don't think of a Decoupled 3-Link as a street car suspension. It can be driven on the street ... just like race cars are driven on the street. But if someone was building a "driver" or what I think of a typical "Pro Touring" car they plan to drive primarily on the street ... and rarely or occasionally run autocross or track days ... I would not suggest a decoupled 3-link. The issue would be poor ride quality. On smooth roads, the ride quality will be fine. On typical bumpy roads the ride would be noticeably harsher. Hitting big potholes ... or tall speed bumps at speed ... would be the worst ... because the suspension can not travel straight up or down very far .. with low/no throttle. It doesn't go into a bind per se. It's just the spring rate from the bushings (2 red ones in this photo) in the Decel system goes up exponentially when the both tires push straight up equally when off throttle. On throttle ... it can move up & down freely ... because the Accel bushings (blue in this photo) are compressed ... and the Decel bushings (red) are not loaded at all.



What the decoupled system allows ... is for the rear end to articulate plenty within the chassis. So if a car with a Decoupled 3-Link drives on a normal street with occasional bumps ... each side can absorb the bumps it hits pretty much like any other suspension. If the bump is huge ... and hit at speed ... the compression amount would be great enough to get into the higher spring rate in the Accel/Decel system. So it would be more harsh than a other rear suspension styles. To summarize ... a Decoupled 3-Link rides fine on smooth roads, feels rougher on rough roads & would be very harsh driven over large potholes or speed bumps at speed.

So again, I would NOT recommend a Decoupled 3-Link for anyone building a "driver" or typical "Pro Touring" car they plan to drive primarily on the street. But Ron Schwarz is not building a cruiser. Neither are all my other clients that have chosen to go the Decoupled 3-Link route. I would call them "Very Mean Street Legal" cars or "Race Cars with License Plates." I suspect they WILL drive them on the street ... to the track or event they're going to. But each learned about the possible harshness ... as well as the advantages of the Decoupled 3-Link ... before choosing them.

Now if they want to drive them on the street & be comfortable ... the car can quickly be converted away from Decoupled 3-Links. With 3-bolts, they can replace the the Accel/Decel system with a regular top link. Then it will ride like any 3-link, 4-link, torque-arm car. In Ron Schwarz' case, he is also keeping the Torque Arm mounts, so he can compare them. I can't wait for that.

The reasons to go to a Decoupled 3-Link in these cars ... as the PT genre evolves more & more toward race car technology ... is the superior track performance. If a person can tolerate the car riding rougher to be bad ass on track ... it is worthy of considering. or if they're ok making the switch I mentioned ... with 3-bolts make it a normal 3-link ... and viola ... normal street ride. Before I go into the advantages of the Decoupled 3-Link ... it's important to understand what parts of the rear suspension affects the handling in the different parts of the corner.

Let's break driving the corner down into the 3 parts:
1. Corner entry ... where the driver is braking, then turning into the corner (and continuing to brake).
2. The "Roll Through Zone" where the driver steps off the brakes & lets the car "roll" through the corner ... before picking the throttle up.
3. Corner exit ... where the driver picks up the throttle & starts unwinding the steering wheel coming out of the corner.

* Some people ... even relatively experienced PT drivers ... don't recognize this "Roll Through Zone" concept because when they step off the brakes in their car, the front end shoots up (lifts) ... instantly causing the car to push. So they don't allow a "Roll Through Zone." They stay on the brakes all the way to the point they need to pick up the throttle. This is not ideal, as using the brakes to keep the front end down scrubs off way more speed. In professional racing, we use special shock pistons, bleeds & valving to keep the front end down ... when the driver lifts off the brake ... so the car can roll and keep higher cornering speed ... versus continued deceleration from constant braking.

Ok. Time to shine some light on the rear suspension functionality. The choice of rear suspension type ... 3-Link, 4-Link, Torque Arm, Truck Arm, 19-Link, etc ... has NO effect on the car's handling in the Roll Through Zone. I know. What ??? And ... the anti-squat percentage, instant center location, length of arm, etc, etc ... have NO effect on the car's handling in the Roll Through Zone. The suspension linkage acts as a mechanical lever when torque is applied. There is no torque being applied to the rear end (or rear suspension) in the Roll Through Zone. No brake torque & no engine torque.

So what affects the car's rear grip in the Roll Through Zone? A lot.
Tire width
Tire Contact Patch
Tire Camber
Tire compound (softness/bite)
Spring Rate
Sway Bar Rate
Weight Mass (rear specifically)
CG
Roll Center
Track Width
Shock Valving

... just not the suspension linkage.

I hear someone asking ... as happens at the workshops ... "So Ron, what does the rear suspension linkage ... and it's settings like anti-squat percentage, instant center location, length of arm, etc, ... affect?" Everything to do with corner entry ... before the Roll Through Zone ... and everything to do with corner exit ... after the Roll Through Zone. So when we're choosing a rear suspension linkage ... and setting it up ... our focus needs to be on getting into the corner ... and out of the corner ... the quickest way possible.

With a torque arm, regular 3-Link, 4-Link, truck arm, etc ... the instant center location defines the swing arm length & anti-squat percentage of the rear suspension.
* If we move the instant center location closer or up ... we are increasing the loading on the tires for increased corner exit grip ... but decreasing the loading on the rear tires for decreased corner entry grip.
* If we move the instant center location forward and/or down ... we are decreasing the loading on the tires for decreased corner exit grip ... but increasing the loading on the rear tires for increased corner entry grip.
* It is ALWAYS a compromise. So knowledgeable tuners/builders choose their rear suspension weapon & set it up appropriately to have the best compromise they think will produce the quickest laps ... or in some cases ... will provide the feel the driver wants. (Some drivers are ok with a loose car on exit but not entry & vice versa.)

This is where the Decoupled 3-Link can out perform every other solid axle rear suspension. There doesn't have to be a compromise with a Decoupled 3-Link. The Decel link can be set where the car has amazing corner entry grip to drive in deep ... see Elvis ... and then brake safely with full grip. The Accel link can be set where the car has amazing corner exit grip ... to roll the throttle on quicker & harder ... and giddy up out of the corner better than any other set-up. The Decoupled 3-Link is so good many racing sanctioning bodies outlawed them back in the 90's. But we don't have to follow those rules in the PT, optima, Good Guys, track Car world.



Some Racing Sanctioning bodies still allow Decoupled 3-Links ... as long as there is no damper as part of the design. With good reason. When we add a damper (shock) with the right valving & response rate ... the grip is amazing. It calms the car down when accelerating full throttle out of the corner & smooths out the gear shifts. It makes a high powered race car ... easier to drive fast.



And ... if we utilize a double adjustable shock ... and make the shock cable adjustable from the driver cockpit ... the driver can tune the rear suspension to any track conditions in an instant. Need more rear grip on exit? Turn the Accel knob one way. Too much rear grip on exit (pushing)? Turn the knob the other way. Need more rear grip on corner entry under hard braking? Turn the Decel knob one way. Too much rear grip on corner entry ? Turn the knob the other way. No climbing under the car to tune it. Grab a handful of rear grip whenever you need it. Give some back if you got greedy.

[Ron S]

I'd love to say, I couldn't have said it better myself, but I couldn't have said that if I wanted to. Great tech Ron, taking the complex and breaking it down for the masses is definitely your best skill. It is easy to see why I went this route, after that explanation, I am dying to drive this thing, and compare it to the truck arm arrangement I drive now. This car will be minus 150 horsepower from my Mustang, at least at first, so it will be an apples and oranges comparison. Still pumped

[Torquedork]

I will do what we discussed earlier, Humpster eyebrow with shortened window opening. I know your dying for me to get on that, unfortunately the suspension comes first, then I have to finish the front fenders for the new wheelbase change, and get them off to have the molds made. Then I'll get on the quarters, can't wait.

That's Cool Ron. I know it won't be easy. I still like the look of a Donohue Spoiler on the back. Seems to balance the look of the car out really nice.



Thankfully, my Turd Brown Rambler hasn't blown up yet. LOL