IFS Technology - No Limit Sniper IFS

[RobNoLimit]

As many of you are aware, we moved last year from So. Cal. to Dandridge Tn. (just outside of Knoxville) One large factor in the move was our desire to grow, beyond the choke hold of Ca. regulations and economics. And part of that growth will be aimed squarely at the 'Car' market. We've dominated the 'Truck' suspension market for many many years, and now that we have some extra room, we're going to start the push. As you would guess, our first offering will be for the Pro-Touring Icon, the First Gen Camaro.
While unknown to most, we have a lot of experience with the f-bodies. While in Ca. we worked on, installed, tuned, and repaired every IFS available for these cars, sorting them out, fixing geometry and fitment problems, and getting things to work, one by one. We gathered a lot of information, and took a lot of notes. We had built a few front subframes with our Wide-Ride IFS geometry, and while these were great drivers, and handled better than most, the 2.375" roll center is a bit high for a truly track worthy F-Body. (Great RC height for a C10, just ask Smitty) Shortly after our move last fall, a good friend and customer of ours fulfilled a dream of his and purchased the ridetech 'Velocity' Camaro. The car is gorgeous, and Keith's goal is to attend as many GoodGuys and USCA events as he can. We took the car to Scottsdale for the 2014 Shootout and I manages to qualify the car in , but was knocked out in the first round. The truth emerged, the eight year old car is still a looker, but not really competitive with today's crop of Pro-Touring muscle. After a few conversations, the fuel had hit the fire, and Kieth had convinced me that the First Gen Camaro should be our next development project.
What follows is a combination of 6 years of notes and sketches, over 300 hours of CAD work, an unknown amount of measuring, fitting and testing, and a lot of sleepless nights. The first thing we did was to talk to a lot of builders to see what problems the had with known subframes. Then we searched out an array of supporting components, so the the installs could be easily finished. Performance, safety and ride quality trumped all other concerns. Here was the Goal list:

1. Modern SuperCar performance and feel. To be worthy of the purchase and install, the new IFS must fundamentally change the driving experience of the car. The driver should feel confident and in control at all times.
2. A stronger platform. Todays builds can easily pass 600 hp with a crate motor. The suspension and subframe system must easily hold up to 1000 hp, AND add strength to the car as a whole.
3. Street manners, Track superiority. We must go to new ideas and technology to deliver a premium experience, worthy of a championship car and driver, yet comfortable on the Power Tour.
4. Safety First. With the trend of track days and racing events, Safety MUST be the top priority of design and component choice. At no time will a compromise of safety be allowed.
5. Component compatibility. Installers and users must be able to work with a variety of Off-the-shelf parts during the build. Headers, engine mounts, A/C and P/S pumps and brackets, oil pans,... At no time will we force a 'one item only' situation onto the user.
6. Braking solutions. We must design a system where in many aftermarket brake systems will bolt into place and perform, NOT forcing the user into a certain brand or size, but offering many solutions and options.
7. Value. We must deliver ALL of this in a package that fits within the current marketplace of F-Body suspension systems.

Sounds simple enough. And, I am happy to say, WE DID IT. If you been following our Facebook posts, you've seen the progress. We are now in production, and will be filling orders by the end of the month. Test driving and track testing has exceeded our goals, and we are very proud to introduce you to the No Limit Engineering "SNIPER IFS"

[RobNoLimit]

Many long hours programming lead us a some new parts and design ideas. The result is the best suspension geometry we have ever built. The graphs are Bumpsteer, Side Scrub and Camber Gain.

[RobNoLimit]

Bump Steer Graph. Yes, those are .000" values.

[DJW32]

Rob,

When will you be releasing pics and price? Also, what kind of spindle is on the new sub?

[RobNoLimit]

Camber Gain Graph. Smooth at first, and becomes very aggressive. Note that the camber gain is steep during compression, and much less during suspension droop.

[RobNoLimit]

Here is the side scrub graph. I think it's important to note that the concept of "0" side scrub may not be ideal. Keeping the center of the tire's contact patch on the planned driving line is the goal. When the car is in a corner, the outside tire is pulled 'in' under the car, and the inside tire is pushed to 'out' from under the car. This amount of sidewall flex in the tire would be moving the contact patch away from it's intended patch. We can use Side Scrub, or Side Shift, to counter act the sidewall flex and keep the contact patch centered on it's path. - Side Shift is the second graph. Not sure why the Bump graph loaded again.

[RobNoLimit]

Rob,

When will you be releasing pics and price? Also, what kind of spindle is on the new sub?

Yes, I'll be posting up picts and info for the next few days.

[bmbrzmn101]

I have been following this on the fB page. That is some nice engineering and packaging. Definitely some outside the box thinking on it. Wishing I had my old firebird back.

Chris

[RobNoLimit]

To change the driving impression, we had to think beyond the suspension geometry, shocks, springs, sway bars and such. We had to start at the beginning. The F-body design was penciled out in 1964, design and tooling was done through 1965, and production started in 1966. The forces in play on the car in those days were 300 hp, G-70-14 bias ply tires, and drum brakes. The engineers knew that the subframe would flex under these loads, so to save the rest of the unitized body from being torn apart, the sub was mounted in relatively soft rubber bushings. Through the years racers and builders added solid mounts, subframe connecters, cages, and front strut bars to help strengthen the platform of the car. While this helps, there is a down side. Most commonly we see solid subframe bushings and some type of bolt-in subframe connecter, and over time with today's forces of 500 hp, 200 TW tires and monster brakes the flex of the subframes slowly starts to tear the body of the car apart.
To deliver a premium experience that will last years and years, the subframe design itself must be stronger than the OE unit. The goal of reducing flex in the subframe and it's mounting points is now added to the list. Planning for a subframe connector and it's mounting is added, and a new design for the center section, A-arm, sway bar and rack mounts starts to take shape. Even the transmission crossmember is integrated into the design to help reduce flex.

Starting with the lower sub rails, the rear mount is sleeved and the mount eye is inset in 3/16" so that even solid mounts can't twist the rail. Thread inserts are welded to the inside of the sub rail for subframe connector mounting points. 'Through bolts' that pinch the subframe will loosen up over time and sleeving the sub rail would interfere with the body mount.

[ace_xp2]

So you've got scrub in on jounce? That means a below ground roll center though, how are you dealing with that? Or better question, how do you deal with the initial understeer provided by the roll axis you'll end up with on most solid axle equipped rears?

[RobNoLimit]

So you've got scrub in on jounce? That means a below ground roll center though, how are you dealing with that? Or better question, how do you deal with the initial understeer provided by the roll axis you'll end up with on most solid axle equipped rears?

You'd have to see all of the geometry as a whole, not just one piece of the puzzle. The roll center at Ride Height is set at 1.120" (above ground) Ride height is spec at 4.750" to the bottom of the center crossmember. The lower arms are extremely long in comparison to other offerings, so roll center migration is very low. We have no problems with understeer, although, as you stated, the choice of rear suspension could have negative effects. Lowering the rear roll center into the range of 4" to 6" is common, at least for us. And with the understanding that for most of our style of track days and street driving, we are using tires with a 200+ TW rating, the lower RC is a big help. Glad to see that you thinking about the suspension in motion, as static views don't tell the whole story.

[efs69]

Rob,
That looks to be a really nice package. Looking at the FB page you can run 315's in the front. Is this with no mods to the inner fender well and outer fender? I
would imaginge clearance on a 69 camaro would be a bit better. Looking forward to seeing more info and package availability.

[RobNoLimit]

Rob,
That looks to be a really nice package. Looking at the FB page you can run 315's in the front. Is this with no mods to the inner fender well and outer fender? I
would imaginge clearance on a 69 camaro would be a bit better. Looking forward to seeing more info and package availability.

Yes, one of our build goals was to run a 315 tire with a stock fender. To be honest the inner fender has some clearance issues with the 315. The rear of the tire rubbs the lower edge of the inner at appx 28* of steering. The subframe is built to turn a full 32*. Also, depending on ride height, the inner edge of the tire will rub the top of the inner fender. We are working on a set of high clearance inner fenders to solve this and they should be available in glass or carbon in a few months. As for the Velocity Camaro, a few well placed strikes with a rubber mallet solved the problem. Total tread width was also a factor. As the front track becomes wider than the rear track, the car will naturally start to push (understeer). So while we were working out the details, we were trying to keep in mind matching this to a mini-tubbed car, which has a narrower track width (center tread to center tread) than an un-tubbed car.

[ace_xp2]

I didn't know there was any way to get side scrub to bring the tire in towards the vehicle without an IC (And so RC) height below ground, I mean you can change magnitude with arm length, but direction (scrubbing in or out) is dependent on IC position relative to the ground plane. Regardless, I like the dropped RC height, I'm really interested to see how that shakes out for people.

[RobNoLimit]

I didn't know there was any way to get side scrub to bring the tire in towards the vehicle without an IC (And so RC) height below ground, I mean you can change magnitude with arm length, but direction (scrubbing in or out) is dependent on IC position relative to the ground plane. Regardless, I like the dropped RC height, I'm really interested to see how that shakes out for people.

Sorry for the confusion. I must have mis-read the original comment. The side scrub is Positive (moving outward from the centerline of the car) during suspension compression, and Negative (moving inward to the centerline) during suspension droop.Here is the graph again, I tried to clean up the image so it is easier to see the scaling.

[RobNoLimit]

As part of the rail construction, the physical fitment of other components is a key concern. The engine and trans are offset .750" to the passenger side. This was done to help with side to side weight balance, as well as steering clearance. The driver and passenger side rails are not 'mirror' images of each other. With the engine offset, portions of the passenger side rail had to be moved outboard to allow clearance for headers, and A/C compressors (in the low LS mount location). The nice thing about this level of advanced planning is that we know what Headers, A/C pumps and mounts, P/S pumps and mounts, Oil pans and such will fit in with no problems.

Inside the rails we incorporated tabbed spacers to help set the rail width and shape. These spacers, welded in to place also help to add rigidity to the rails, helping to reduce the flex of the subframe. The shape of the rail is also a deviation from the OE design. With no steering box, there is no need for the subframe to rise up just ahead of the firewall mount. The Sniper IFS rail makes a smooth rise up toward the suspension area. The smoother shape also adds strength, and saves weight. The rails are also pulled 'in' in the tire well area, allowing a 315 tire to fit in a stock fender, and still retain the 32* turn angle.

[Rod]

excited about this one!!

[RobNoLimit]

During the last few years we've done a fair amount of racing and Track days. It is key to remember that we are not building 'race' cars, many are drivin to and from the events, to shows and to get a burger. Street duty can be tougher on a car than a groomed track, and honestly, some of the tracks aren't that great. Lately, in the last few years, as speeds increase along with braking loads and tire technology, we've seen some parts fail. Spindle flex, brake fade and knock-back, spindle failure, bearing and ball joint failure....... Any of these can take the fun out of the weekend in a hurry. We also paid close attention to the amount of tinkering and tuning some guys want to try. - And some don't.

It was for these reasons that we made some of our component choices.

The ball joints are both Chrysler screw in type. #K727 lower and #K772 upper. The lower can be seen in the picture next to an OE 1rst Gen Camaro ball joint. These are a huge improvement in strength and service. The screw in ball joints can be changed without removing the A-arms. Also, the Racing Aftermarket has a wide selection of Taller, Low-friction, Adjustable, and Mono-Ball replacements. So you can tinker away to your hearts content.

The Bearing choice was really a spindle choice. As much as we have witnessed braking problems due to spindle flex, and seen some scary moments due to bearing failure, we went BIG. To get what we wanted in a total package took some doing. With a custom built modular spindle and a new designed billit hub we were able to package what we wanted, and use off-the-shelf consumables. The three bearings in the picture are A-3, large GM outer, it has an 1130 lb. load rate. Next is an A-6, GM inner, such as 2nd Gen Camaro, with a 2360 lb. load rate. On the right is the Timken 368A, with a load rate of 5930 lbs. This is the bearing we are using for both the inner and outer bearings. Yes, total bearing load rate of the front hub is 11,860 lbs. Properly maintained and adjusted, these will never fail.

[RobNoLimit]

Ok, I know what your thinking. "what kind of spindle uses a giant bearing like that?" Well, a real race car spindle does. We worked with Coleman Racing to get a short snout version of their 5x5 spindle. These have 7 degrees of SAI (or KPI if you like that term) The steering arm was custom built to our spec with the rack we are using. These spindles weigh in at 7 lbs 3 oz. less than half the weight of a 1rst or 2nd gen spindle. total spindle height is set at 10.850", that's ball joint center to ball joint center, so it's easy to get this deep into the wheel with no clearance issues.

[DJW32]

Rob,
This is very interesting. Keep the updates coming.