IFS Technology - No Limit Sniper IFS

[Rod]

excited about this one!!

[RobNoLimit]

During the last few years we've done a fair amount of racing and Track days. It is key to remember that we are not building 'race' cars, many are drivin to and from the events, to shows and to get a burger. Street duty can be tougher on a car than a groomed track, and honestly, some of the tracks aren't that great. Lately, in the last few years, as speeds increase along with braking loads and tire technology, we've seen some parts fail. Spindle flex, brake fade and knock-back, spindle failure, bearing and ball joint failure....... Any of these can take the fun out of the weekend in a hurry. We also paid close attention to the amount of tinkering and tuning some guys want to try. - And some don't.

It was for these reasons that we made some of our component choices.

The ball joints are both Chrysler screw in type. #K727 lower and #K772 upper. The lower can be seen in the picture next to an OE 1rst Gen Camaro ball joint. These are a huge improvement in strength and service. The screw in ball joints can be changed without removing the A-arms. Also, the Racing Aftermarket has a wide selection of Taller, Low-friction, Adjustable, and Mono-Ball replacements. So you can tinker away to your hearts content.

The Bearing choice was really a spindle choice. As much as we have witnessed braking problems due to spindle flex, and seen some scary moments due to bearing failure, we went BIG. To get what we wanted in a total package took some doing. With a custom built modular spindle and a new designed billit hub we were able to package what we wanted, and use off-the-shelf consumables. The three bearings in the picture are A-3, large GM outer, it has an 1130 lb. load rate. Next is an A-6, GM inner, such as 2nd Gen Camaro, with a 2360 lb. load rate. On the right is the Timken 368A, with a load rate of 5930 lbs. This is the bearing we are using for both the inner and outer bearings. Yes, total bearing load rate of the front hub is 11,860 lbs. Properly maintained and adjusted, these will never fail.

[RobNoLimit]

Ok, I know what your thinking. "what kind of spindle uses a giant bearing like that?" Well, a real race car spindle does. We worked with Coleman Racing to get a short snout version of their 5x5 spindle. These have 7 degrees of SAI (or KPI if you like that term) The steering arm was custom built to our spec with the rack we are using. These spindles weigh in at 7 lbs 3 oz. less than half the weight of a 1rst or 2nd gen spindle. total spindle height is set at 10.850", that's ball joint center to ball joint center, so it's easy to get this deep into the wheel with no clearance issues.

[DJW32]

Rob,
This is very interesting. Keep the updates coming.

[Nothingface5384]

looks awesome and very promising
are their plans down the line for a A body kit?

[RobNoLimit]

looks awesome and very promising
are their plans down the line for a A body kit?

We have looked into that. At the moment we are busy with 1rst and 2nd gen F-body subs. While the suspension geometry and components are adaptable to the A-body, the subframe design is not. This would require a new front sub assembly that would have to be installed onto the chassis. So there's the catch. How many A-body owners would be willing (and able) to cut off the front of their chassis, say just behind the OE steering box mount, and fit up and weld on a new front section? Now for reference, we make a front snout for 49-51 Mercs with our Wide-Ride IFS, and these guys don't think twice about getting out the sawzall. I also personally think that a clean 66/67 Chevelle with 315's on all corners, updated suspension and brakes, LSX and 6 speed would be a great Power Tour or One-Lap car. But the big question is, would enough guys do it?

[Nothingface5384]

We have looked into that. At the moment we are busy with 1rst and 2nd gen F-body subs. While the suspension geometry and components are adaptable to the A-body, the subframe design is not. This would require a new front sub assembly that would have to be installed onto the chassis. So there's the catch. How many A-body owners would be willing (and able) to cut off the front of their chassis, say just behind the OE steering box mount, and fit up and weld on a new front section? Now for reference, we make a front snout for 49-51 Mercs with our Wide-Ride IFS, and these guys don't think twice about getting out the sawzall. I also personally think that a clean 66/67 Chevelle with 315's on all corners, updated suspension and brakes, LSX and 6 speed would be a great Power Tour or One-Lap car. But the big question is, would enough guys do it?

if ots priced right, i dont think cutting and welding up a section of tje frame would be a big deal

[DJW32]

Rob,
What brakes is velocity running on the new sub?

[RobNoLimit]

Rob,
What brakes is velocity running on the new sub?

We chose to re-use the 14" 6P Baer brakes that were on the OE spindles before. With the new spindle and hub design, it is very easy for us to match up a variety of rotors and calipers. We already have mount kits for Baer 14" 6P, Wilwood 13" 4P and 6P, and Brakeman 13" wave rotor with 4P. The rotor adapter is machined to interlock onto the hub so that the hardware isn't taking the brake load. One set of rotor adapters (your choice) is included with the IFS, the caliper mounts are additional, and range from $195 to $245 per pair (one pair per car) This makes the brake addition to the suspension a lot more affordable.

For example :
Wilwood 14" x 1.25 Spec 37 rotor #160-12341/2-bk $329 each
Wilwood Forged 6P Superlite, Radial mount #120-13236/5 $278 each
Wilwood E pads, 15E-6084K $109 set
No Limit caliper mount set $229

So for $1552 =/- you have 14" 6 piston brakes with good pads. That's a good deal compares to the $2200 upgrade price of most other subframe assemblies.

[dhutton]

It's amazing to see these new F body subframes coming out. I thought this segment was pretty much done evolving several years ago. Interesting to see where they are heading and how and if the competition counters.

Don

[RobNoLimit]

It's amazing to see these new F body subframes coming out. I thought this segment was pretty much done evolving several years ago. Interesting to see where they are heading and how and if the competition counters.

Don

Thanks Don. We're excited to see what the next level can do. I think it's cool that Blake (SpeedTech) and Ron Sutton are working together on a new sub/suspension design as well. Ron and I have had some great conversations over the years and when it comes to suspension performance we share many of the same ideas. It will be interesting, to say the least, to see how these new designs stack up against the current crop. I'm hoping Blake gets one underway and can possibly make the trip out to Columbus later this year, it would be cool to see the new designs together.

[Ron Sutton]

It's amazing to see these new F body subframes coming out. I thought this segment was pretty much done evolving several years ago. Interesting to see where they are heading and how and if the competition counters.

Don

Thanks Don. We're excited to see what the next level can do. I think it's cool that Blake (SpeedTech) and Ron Sutton are working together on a new sub/suspension design as well. Ron and I have had some great conversations over the years and when it comes to suspension performance we share many of the same ideas. It will be interesting, to say the least, to see how these new designs stack up against the current crop. I'm hoping Blake gets one underway and can possibly make the trip out to Columbus later this year, it would be cool to see the new designs together.

I agree Don. It did seem the front clip designs had become stagnant. Then Speedtech & No Limit commit the time, work & $$$ to take it to another level. It's pretty cool.

Rob! Congrats on the new project! You coming out West for any events this year? I will be coming out East for a few events ... Goodguys PPG Nationals, Ohio in July, the Holley LS Fest in Sept & the Goodguys Lone Star Nationals in October. We need to have a beer & catch up.

[RobNoLimit]

I agree Don. It did seem the front clip designs had become stagnant. Then Speedtech & No Limit commit the time, work & $$$ to take it to another level. It's pretty cool.

Rob! Congrats on the new project! You coming out West for any events this year? I will be coming out East for a few events ... Goodguys PPG Nationals, Ohio in July, the Holley LS Fest in Sept & the Goodguys Lone Star Nationals in October. We need to have a beer & catch up.

With the move and everything going on, I don't see a West Coast trip until SEMA. Will will be in Tx next weekend, and Keith and Velocity will be in Tx for the USCA the following weekend. He was planning on taking the car to Tx, But managed to get in on a last chance bid to the NCM event/school that same weekend. So, we'll be in Columbus and at the LS fest. See ya there.

[srh3trinity]

I like the fact that you essentially started from scratch on the design and that you planned ahead for brakes and headers, etc.

[RobNoLimit]

I like the fact that you essentially started from scratch on the design and that you planned ahead for brakes and headers, etc.

Thanks Stephen. We even made room for the OE Camaro LS oil pan. No need to pay for a "swap" pan.

[DJW32]

Rob,
Thanks for the brake info.

Are there any plans for sub frame connectors?

[RobNoLimit]

Rob,
Thanks for the brake info.

Are there any plans for sub frame connectors?

The easy answer is yes. We did incorporate thread inserts to positively mount subframe connectors, so that part is done. Now, while we have built a few of these subs and been road testing and driving them, we have not yet finished our rear suspension packages. At the moment, we are leaning towards a weld-in subframe connector that will include a new front leaf pocket with a set of sleeved front eye mount sockets (no more removing the pocket to get the spring or link bolt out). Once welded in place these would use a small bolt in section to connect to the front subframe (with this approach the subframe connector can be used with most other front and rear suspensions) We are also planning in a set of outriggers to tie into the cage hoop area, and a fitted weld in cross support for seat belt/harness mounts and a driveshaft loop. While this may be more involved and require some cutting and welding (nothing more than a mini-tubb install) we believe this will be critical to delivering true a Supercar experience.

[ccmc]

Has pricing been determined yet?

[DJW32]

Has pricing been determined yet?

I agree. I'm curious.

Also, what rear suspension are you working on... Torque arm with watts link, 3 link??

Have you tested the tbm brakes? I've read plenty of info about them, but I have not seen feedback from any users.

[RobNoLimit]

I agree. I'm curious.

Also, what rear suspension are you working on... Torque arm with watts link, 3 link??

Have you tested the tbm brakes? I've read plenty of info about them, but I have not seen feedback from any users.

1. The rear suspension we are working on is a 3-link and panhard. The coil-overs and sway bar will be mounted in the trunk, and drivin via a pushrod and rocker assembly. The rear seat can go back in, but the base cushion needs a bit of re-working to fit. We know there will be some work involved to install this type of suspension system, but it takes no more skills than to install mini tubbs or replace a trunk pan. And, it will work!

2. TBM brakes. I have run their 4 piston caliper for two seasons now on the Hellboy C10, and I love them. We have used every aftermarket brake set that you can think of, and I think that the TBM caliper may be the most effecient. Over the years we have performed this simple test on brake sets. Pull of the wheel/tire. Screw in a brake pressure guage into the bleed port. Set a large (12") dial caliper over the center of the brake caliper (across the caliper inside to outside) and snug it up and note the width. Push on the brake pedal until you get 750 lbs of line pressure (or as high as you can get if it system won't get to 750). Then note the new measurement on the dial calipers and do the math to se how much the caliper flexed. We have measured some calipers to have as much as .100" flex!!! At this rate less than 50% of the pad is doing any work. We have tested the TBM calipers on the truck many times, and the most we could measure is .008" @ 1000psi.

The set we like from them is a 13" wave rotor at .810" thick. Gas slotted but not drilled. 4 Pistom caliper and a good set of pads. BP-30, E-pads, TBM-3S, or Hawk. This caliper uses the same pad as a Wilwood superlite 4P, which is the circle track racers favorite, so there are many many pads to choose from. This set up will run appx $1575.

Wes Drelleshack runs TBM on his Apache, and the guys at Dueces Wild in Filmore use them on everything they build. You can see them in Pomona this weekend at the Street Machine nats.