IFS Technology - No Limit Sniper IFS

[cornfedbill]

I'm not sure I'll make Loveland, but Keith might. He is the new owner of the Velocity Camaro, which now has a Sniper IFS. I know that his goal is to qualify the car for the GoodGuys Scottsdale Shootout, and the OUSCI. So if he needs the points, he'll be there. We are going to Raleigh this weekend for the GoodGuys show and the car will be there. Our current set back may be tires. We got a used set of Falkens in the winter when we put the new suspension in and have been testing and racing on them, and they're pretty worn out. - No new tires available at the moment, so Raleigh and Kissimmee we be on used hides. I bet she still makes the board.

I am eager to see how the Camaro performs. This is an interesting IFS design.

[RobNoLimit]

Just back from the 1rst GoodGuys North Carolina Nationals. If you missed this one, you missed a great show! We got 12+ runs Friday and Saturday, and another 6+ Sunday morning. This was an All Years event, so the Street Machine class had late models as well. Lots of C5 and C6 'Vettes. The track was small and tight with a lot of elements, and right from the start I knew I would have trouble in the truck (too wide) Keith, driving Velocity, ran a few 43's and then 42's. I ran a few 42's and then 41's. I thought that 39's were possible. They were, but not from us. Kyle Tucker in his '70 Camaro ran a 39.6xx and Mike Johnson ran a few 39.6xx in his 'Vette. Low 40's seemed to be the fast kids. Smitty ran a 40.3xx in the 48 Hour 'Vette, I ran a 40.4xx in the HellBoy, and Bret Voelkel ran a 40.5xx in the Mustang. Keith's best lap of 41.6xx put him in 5th in the Pro class. I drove Velocity for one run (my first time driving it on an auto-x track) and ran a high 42. And then, totally understood Keith's difficulties. It's just plain uncomfortable on the track. Not the whole car, but the drivers compartment sure is. The pedals are crowded, the steering wheel is too small and too close to the dash, and the seat doesn't hold you in. Really, it looks like a bucket, and it's comfortable to sit in, but in a corner, you may as well be on a bench seat. It takes all of you focus not to fall over. We changer to a 15" dished wheel from the swap meet on Saturday at lunch, and that helped, but the message was clear. Driver Ergonomics is a big problem. By the way, this does not show up when driving down the street. The car feels nice.

My thoughts, after driving, is that these ergo problems were worth at least a full second, putting the car in range of a mid to low 40 sec. run. So, this week we will be changing the drivers seat and harnesses, and reworking the column, wheel, and pedals.

As for the suspension, we did a bit of tuning, and it was doing everything we asked. One rotation of toe out (appx 1/4") for the tight coarse, and another 1/2 degree neg camber on the right front and the turn in was quick and on line. No push. the rear was slightly loose but very controllable. We think a larger front bar may be in order. Tire temps were even, and tire wear was good. The used Falkens held up well, but new skins are definitely in order. Some new rubber could be worth a second as well. Florida GoodGuys is not looking so good next weekend, but "Cruisin the Smokies" is in two weeks, and we should be ready for that.

[bret]

Rob makes a great point...driver "comfort" is a big deal! When we built this Velocity in 2008, we were using tires that had MUCH less grip. Now that they have the far stickier Falkens on it, brake knockback has raised its ugly head. The seats were cool looking and quite adequate back then...there is better stuff available now. Pedal and steering wheel placement is subjective and must be arranged for the individual driver.
One thing that has not become outdated...that car still looks bitchin! We all went to dinner Thursday nite in Raleigh...to see Velocity roll thru the mall parking lot, pull into a parking spot, and unload three people like a minivan brought yet another smile to my face!
Congratulations to Rob McGreagor and Keith Corrigan for continuing the concept in which Velocity was born...very proud to continue to be a part of it!

[RobNoLimit]

Hell yes, the car IS bitchin! By no means am I implying that it wasn't built well. As we work on the car, I am continually impressed with some of things that Snaps did. It really is built well. But it was built over eight years ago, things have evolved, and we learned things since then. Look at the difference between my old truck, the Silver Bullit F-100 and the HellBoy C10. And those two builds are only 4 years apart. If your not learning new things on a regular basis, your just steeling oxygen from those of us who need it. I've talked to about a hundred people in the last month or so about the pedals in a first gen, and everyone just says "that's how they are" What? Drum brakes is "how they are" too. Time to evolve this platform a little more. It'll just take a few tweeks. Trust me, or ask Smitty, he drove it. It's fast, it turns and it's predictable. You can trust it going in to a corner. So, first GoodGuys event with the new suspension and Keith makes the board in a tough and fast crowd, Yeah, it's bitchin.

[DJW32]

Is Velocity running the ridetech rear suspension?

[RobNoLimit]

Is Velocity running the ridetech rear suspension?

yes. We did change from the urethane bushed ends to rod ends, to free up the rear motion. We didn't notice any change in ride quality. So, some more info on the car. We are using the 1/2" drop solid subframe bushings. - Don't know who's, they were on the car. It has a bolt-in ridetech "Tiger Cage", and we added a crossbar for the seat backs. There are no subframe connectors. The car has been 'mini' tubbed, with DSE tubbs. Everything is steel. Fenders, hood, inner fenders, valences, everything. No Diet plan here. Full interior, stereo, A/C,.... It's an honest "Pro-Touring" car.

[bret]

I think it's cool that many of us arrive at mostly the same points...tire size...suspension geometry...drive ergonomics...brakes...these things all add up to tenths of a second. When the top 5 of many events are separated by maybe 2/10ths...these little things are important.
The other cool thing is that none of these refinements are a compromise to the drivability and organic enjoyment of the car...in fact they enhance it. The short story is that we are all building better cars these days!

[DJW32]

Quick question:
What seats are in Velocity and hellboy?

[RobNoLimit]

The HellBoy has some E-Bay seats from a place called "Sick-Speed" These are 'tuner' seats, and kind of flimsy at first. I cut the headrest down for looks, and once the seat was mounted and the back braced to the cage, they are very solid. The covers are showing some wear after three years, but i do like the way they fit around you. They are non-adjustable. I think the seats in Velocity are Recarro, but not sure, they have custom covers and no logo. They are adjustable, and nice seats, but lack the 'holding' support we're after. We are now fitting V with a Kirkey seat for the driver. This will be non adjustable and set up to remove quickly, so that the seats can be swapped for normal driving to track days.

[RobNoLimit]

I have been asked about this, and to lay it out in one format. Also, to put the brakes into packages, and to allow for shock choices. The Sniper Sub-frame assembly will start without brakes or coil-overs. You can chose those items from us, or not. Shocks and brakes are a big part of the performance ability, so we are not offering any package that will not live up to the performance level of the suspension design. As for recommendations, I am a loyal ridetech soldier, and will stay with them. Some have asked for JRI and with JJ's help we can supply these if you choose. I sell a lot of Wilwood product and it is proven. Personally I fell that the TBM package has the edge. All brake packages include Wilwood "E" pads, others are available.
What would my recommended package be?

Sniper sub-frame IFS package $6550
ridetech TQ shocks $1650
Tuner pack of springs $200
TBM 13" x 4 piston brakes $1797
Tuner pack of sway bars $225
SGB powder coat $300
Brake hoses $85
Steering kit $95
Yes, that's a big hit, at $10,902, but you get everything, and its all matched, and it works! We are in production of our first run, and are offering a discount for the first 15 orders. Please PM for details. (6 already sold, 9 are left)

[carbuff]

Rob,

What is your plan and timeline for the second generation F-Body platform?

[RobNoLimit]

Rob,

What is your plan and timeline for the second generation F-Body platform?

Right now we are getting up speed with the first gens. Second gens are on deck. Right now I'd say that we are looking at mid June to July before we have second gen Camaro in the works, and another month or two to be ready for sale. The subframe is only slightly different, and all of the suspension components are the same, so this should be a lot easier than the first one.

[cornfedbill]

Rob,

It looks like you have a winning subframe. Every car has do be dialed in, as you know.

I am looking forward to some fast times from Velocity.

[bret]

Current seats in Velocity are Cerullo...nice seats, comfortable, state of the art in 2008, but not supportive enough for the cornering capabilities of todays equipment.

[RobNoLimit]

A few updates on the Velocity Camaro. Last week we make a few changes to the car. We swapped in a Kirkey seat, pulled the column back 1 1/2" and changed to a 15" wheel (a 14" is really the answer I think). On the Sniper IFS, we changed the assist slave on the rack from a 1 3/8" to a 1 1/2". The steering was good, but in tight low speed corner with low engine RPM it was a bit too firm. This change will be updated on all Sniper IFS units.
On Sunday we went out to the local SCCA Auto-X and had some fun. With the differences in track layouts we can judge the car in two ways. 1-simply by the butt dyno. Seat of the pants driver feel. 2-comparisons with 'known cars'. We compared with "Jim" and his A/C Cobra on slicks, in the Pro class, and "Dale"in a C7 Vette in the Pro class. The coarse at Pellisippe State is close to the same each time, but with minor changes, run time is appx 60 sec. for the fast group. The last few times out Keith ran 6 sec slower than Jim, and 4 sec slower than Dale, this seems to be the norm. Yesterday he ran 2 sec slower than Jim, and even with Dale. So the comparisons say 4 seconds improvement, and the butt dyno says "Oh Yeah!" The car and driver are happy all the way around the coarse. Still on wasted tires, but a huge step. The ergonomics was the last piece of the puzzle. Now it's tuning and driving. Can't wait for CTS and Nashville!

[dontlifttoshift]

. I sell a lot of Wilwood product and it is proven. Personally I fell that the TBM package has the edge. )

Please expand. What do you like about the TBM brakes? I already have a set, just curious about your feedback.

[DJW32]

Seat looks good. Which kirkley seat is that?

[RobNoLimit]

Please expand. What do you like about the TBM brakes? I already have a set, just curious about your feedback.

OK Donny. Here is something I've done for about 20 yrs. A performance car comes in with some brake issues of XYZ..... one of the first things I do is pull the pads out and measure them. Thickness, in six places, the four corners, about 1/2" from the corner, and then the 'middle top' and 'middle bottom' of the pad. I started to notice a pattern of wear that indicates that the caliper is "opening" up, like a clamshell. The pads are worn most at the the top two corners, and least in the 'bottom middle'. Then, I put the pads on the mill and use an old (as in dull, and I don't like it any more) fly cutter and surface cut the pads. I have had pads that needed as much as .050" cut to get them square again. With just that, most of the 'pad fade', 'brake fade', knock back' problems are gone. What that tells me is that caliper flex is a big deal. Also, if the pads have the same pressure on a smaller contact (due to an en-even wear) area, they will run much hotter. The system will require more pedal travel, and the brakes may also exhibit some drag. SO, I started to put a set of dial calipers (to measure) over the brake calipers on new installs, across the brake caliper from inside to outside, and then push on the pedal to build 700 psi (brake pressure gauge screwed into the caliper) and measure the flex of the brake caliper. Over the years, the TBM calipers flex the least. So, if you believe that this makes a difference, it may sway your opinion. Have you run the TBM brakes? how do you like them?

[RobNoLimit]

Seat looks good. Which kirkley seat is that?

Not sure, keith picked it up. I'll see if I can find out for you.

[dontlifttoshift]

Rob, I don't have any experience with them yet, just have a set on the car I'm building. They are supposed to magical, that's why I bought them. You are the only person I have heard any feedback from that wasn't trying to sell them to me.......so naturally I was curious. Good that you were able to match E pads to them, I figured I could, just haven't tried yet.

Thanks!