Magazine Gripe

[Damn True]

The new car mags can get away with it. They test trucks head to head. Sport-sedans head to head. Under 30k cars head to head.

Someone always comes in first, someone always comes in last. Yet the auto manufacturers still buy ads. I'll bet that the last Chevy Trucks ad in Motor Trend cost a whole bunch more than the 1"x2" ad that Hotrods To Hell buys every month.

But if you could get Freiburger to quit calling it "racing".....

[6'9"Witha69]

I don't agree that these cars are not "raced". By definition they are raced when on a track competing for time or speed. If anyone just wants to do some "spirited driving" on a track for fun or exhibition, be my guest, but I want to race. If times or position can be compared at the end of the day, it's racing.

[Damn True]

You planning on running NASA TT or actual wheel to wheel racing?

[6'9"Witha69]

Time trial and Auto X for now. Wheel to wheel when I can better afford the inevitable body work.

[Damn True]

Auto-x and HPDE for me in my Camaro. If I ever get the bug for open passing or wheel to wheel racing I'll build a Miata.

[NOT A TA]

PHR feature on my car stated "It is a street-driven vehicle that is raced at dragstrips and road courses." I felt funny about them saying I raced on road courses.The fact is I have raced it at dragstrips (heads up)and the ECTA (for top speed) but I'm only in HPDE 2 in NASA at Road Course events so there's no "racing" there just having fun on a road course and learning. I think the magazines just like the word racing to describe on track activities.
John

[Damn True]

PHR feature on my car stated "It is a street-driven vehicle that is raced at dragstrips and road courses." I felt funny about them saying I raced on road courses.The fact is I have raced it at dragstrips (heads up)and the ECTA (for top speed) but I'm only in HPDE 2 in NASA at Road Course events so there's no "racing" there just having fun on a road course and learning. I think the magazines just like the word racing to describe on track activities.
John

I have a feeling that they do it because it takes less space than explaining an HPDE to someone who has no idea what that might be. The problem is that in doing so I think they are probably scaring a lot of people away from road courses because they think that HPDE's are actual wheel to wheel RACING and all their minds eye sees is:



Which is exactly why I have been trying to encourage Rupp to do a series of articles on prepping a car, and mostly a driver, for HPDE events and auto-x.

[68Formula]

As long as we're griping, I wish they would bring back Autobuff. I bet Hunkins would do the photography for free.

[Steve Chryssos]

The XV Motorsports event is only for muscle cars. There will be no hermetically sealed, scientifically flawless comparison, but there is a wide assortment of suspension types signed up from an air ride Street Challenge Camaro (Allegretta) to a an XV Xtreme long wheelbase Charger (Howell). There will be at least one 3-link car (ProBell), one torque arm car (Mulvey) and multiple leaf spring cars. Stock clips, aftermarket clips--you name it. There will be manuals and automatics.

And there should be a big four magazine on hand. These million plus circ magazines carry obscene ad rates, so the aftermarket usually cannot afford to advertise. That rules out the "ad contract" variable. These are mostly owner supplied cars anyway.

And the winner will be...... The car that already has the most track time, driven by the most experienced driver. Or the car with the best oil temp management since there is a 3700 foot straight. Some cars will need to lift. After meeting Sean Hyland and John Buscema, my money is on the XV Challenger.

True, why don't you start a new thread in the open section (where it will get the most play) for XV event participants check in and post vehicle specs. Exclude driver experience since it might dissuade some from posting. Don't do it in the sticky, a lot of people don't read stickies more than once. Start a new thread.

And we should all forget about a direct and thorough comparison of suspension parts. It ain't gonna happen. Some folks will never be happy unless parts and systems are swapped on one car in one day through a comprehensive battery of tests. That is just plain unrealistic. How ridiculous is it to think that subframes can be swapped and rear suspension systems welded in place on the same car in any reasonable time frame? Can you picture cutting out a welded truck arm system and replacing it with a welded 3 link system? Goofy.

Be glad that we have muscle car-only events like RTH2 the XV Track Day. Sift thru the loosely structured results and subjectively extrapolate the results. Never forget that we are ONLY building fast hot rods--not competitive race cars. If we're not having fun, we screwed up.
/Steevo

[andrewb70]

Never forget that we are ONLY building fast hot rods--not competitive race cars. If we're not having fun, we screwed up.
/Steevo

Well put my friend! Key words there....

Andrew

[Steve Chryssos]

Gosh. Thanks buddy...and I thought that part was a little "over the top"

[andrewb70]

Gosh. Thanks buddy...and I thought that part was a little "over the top"

I think people need to keep those words ringing in their heads at all times. Especially when people get into these silly debates about the last 2% mods. We are all addicted to sexy hardware, but we forget that $1000 spent on a driving school is probably worth about $20,000 in suspension mods. Not to mention the fact that I can't think of a single car on this board that is actually a race car. So people just need to remember that all this is supposed to be fun...damn it...

Andrew

[MADMIKE]

I have a feeling that they do it because it takes less space than explaining an HPDE to someone who has no idea what that might be.

That is fraking true TRUE. I NEVER had even heard the term HPDE until I joined a certain 'carving' site. I *thought* there was such a thing but most speed shops only admit to the dirt track roundy-rounds >:-(.

The problem is that in doing so I think they are probably scaring a lot of people away from road courses because they think that HPDE's are actual wheel to wheel RACING...

That is a sickening FACT amongst us. It was either 20bucks for the 1320 or 10K to play 'race car driver' at a Solo event at Sears Point. Visiting Cone events NEVER interested me since my vehicle choice was twice as long as a Miata. No way in a frozen hell would my car even begin to compete.

Which is exactly why I have been trying to encourage Rupp to do a series of articles on prepping a car, and mostly a driver, for HPDE events and auto-x.

Hecks-E-D-YAH and back!!!(keep it family orientated folks) I used to read HRM, eh it got too BS, CCM was fairly decent to the cause, but just regurgitated the Ponti-hack story or 440/Dart story OVER and OVER again. Thats great and all but teaching kids HOW to drive is better. Everyone wins, as a result. We as a community get better drivers, and the 'kids' get to have fun going out on a race track with their pride and joy. The 'FTW' attitute NEEDS to be crushed, the 'my econ-box Civic/Focus/whatever can dust a Corvette' mentallity needs to be obliterated.

If people knew about an HPDE event exsisting then they would most likely go to said event, and try to learn. Obviously there will be the one loud mouth saying he didn't learn anything but he will also be the same one who didn't listen, and in doing so still drive like the typical moron.

I'm the optimistic, and if anything they will at LEAST learn some kind of tactic that will not get anyone harmed/killed.

[Steve1968LS2]

I think people need to keep those words ringing in their heads at all times. Especially when people get into these silly debates about the last 2% mods. We are all addicted to sexy hardware, but we forget that $1000 spent on a driving school is probably worth about $20,000 in suspension mods. Not to mention the fact that I can't think of a single car on this board that is actually a race car. So people just need to remember that all this is supposed to be fun...damn it...

Andrew

HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!


A slow car with a good driver will always beat a fast car with a mediocer driver..

[Steve1968LS2]

PHR feature on my car stated "It is a street-driven vehicle that is raced at dragstrips and road courses." I felt funny about them saying I raced on road courses.The fact is I have raced it at dragstrips (heads up)and the ECTA (for top speed) but I'm only in HPDE 2 in NASA at Road Course events so there's no "racing" there just having fun on a road course and learning. I think the magazines just like the word racing to describe on track activities.
John

Ahh.. the old "exageration" deal.. lol.. maybe it was because your car LOOKED like it belonged on a road course?

And if you go to open track day and your trying to go fast it really is "racing" even if it's not "competative" ;)

[Steve1968LS2]

Yeah, like the Engine Masters' Challenge isn't??? Admittedly, it's not quite the same thing, but it is the same idea. I do see your point about creating a fair and equitable playing field for the challenge.

...

Comparing an Engine Dyno event to something like this is sorta silly.. don't you think?


How about we have a rocket to the moon contest.. they will build rockets and the one that gets at least sub-orbital and closest to the moon wins. It's not quite the same thing but it's the same idea.. lol

I think things like Pidgeon Forge and the XV Motorsports deal is about the best we can hope for. Pidgeon Forge was the best case so far and it showed the the driver is way more important than the parts.

[trapin]

The reason you don't see a story like this or will ever see a story like this is because the cold hard truth is there's really not that much difference in performance between them. If you were to put a stock frame with Tyler's spindels, a Hotchkis front sway bar and springs, DS&E Arms and Koni shocks up against a Wayne Due clip, it's going to be close. It's going to be VERY close. The only real advantage the aftermarket clips offer you is ease of adjusting ride height and room to fit wider tires on the front.

There's no story to tell in my opinion.

[67SSDan]

There's no story to tell in my opinion.

I hate to say it (as my quadra-link is being installed right now), but I think this is very true. The one thing I think everyone at RTH2 learned was that all the setups were really close. The major difference was tires and driver skill. Since, as has been mentioned before, none of us are really building race cars here... in my opinion at the end of the day what matters is how it performs on the street... and can you take it to the track and have fun with it, and be safe in it.

I feel you though True... it would be nice if they would drive some of these feature cars and give some "driving impressions". Car and Driver does it with multiple drivers in the same car... and they even come right out and tell you that the results are subjective.

Then again... I don't know many car guys that would let 4 or 5 different magazine guys drive the snot out of their cars.

That's my .02. You get what you paid for it.

Dan

[406 Q-ship]

As an past Guldstrand Employee, the shootout articles that were done back in the 1980's (there were 2 actually) were some of the best business generators. The first article used 2nd gen F-bodies if memory serves, Herb Adams (78 Camaro), H.O. Racing (Trans Am), Rancho (Camaro), and Guldstrand (70 RS Z/28) and was similar in format to the later article. Basicly all contestants built a car using basic bolt ons, which solved the cost issue to small companies (they could sell the car when done). At the time all builders did was a spring and swaybar package. See I told you I have been doing a "pro-touring" type of cars long before there was a pro-touring.....

[Scott Parkhurst]

The Engine Masters comparison is similar...if you'd have read all the mail I recieved after launching it.

There were many, many requests to do something similar to what is being requested here:

Run the engines in a 'mule' car at the dragstrip to "really show which one is best" because, obviously, dynos lie and the quarter-mile is the absolute best-possible way to determine the dominance of one engine over another (ahem...)

But, the requests were dead serious. They felt it'd be 'easy' to have a suitable car that could readily accept all the different makes of engine, that could be adapted to the same transmission, and be tested at the same track to really show what these engines could do.

I never really thought people were that daft until that point in time.

This request (for the suspension comparo) is almost as insane. The work required is prohibitive, only because I, for one, have never truly been able to 'bolt' things on and have it go together smoothly without anything requiring any modification whatsoever. To think that a series of full suspension swaps could concievably be done in a reasonable time, tuned, tested, and also be representative of the performance one could expect under their own car, is kind of dreamy.

The closest one could honestly hope for would be something like the Hot Rod deal, where mfr's bring their own representative cars. Now, if all of those cars were of the same chassis (say, first gen F-bodies or Fox-bodied Mustangs) then you'd have something- especially if you limited it to 'stock replacement, bolt-ons' that could be inspected...and I like the RWHP dyno test, too.

Results could be varied as long as costs were shared. I'd expect a suspension system costing twice as much to perform better...but how much better? A 2,500 setup that was within reach of a 6,000 setup might be okay. "Losing" a magazine shootout is all a matter of definition, especially when costs are figured in.

For instance, I know Steve's "Penny" Camaro will probably outperform my old station wagon, but it'd take 3 times the cash outlay (or more). For the performance difference between the two cars, I think the wagon justifies it's price. Of course, until both cars have some performance data, the discussion is moot, but I think you get the idea.

Losing isn't losing if you can perform very close to the winner for half the price.

~SP~