Magazine Gripe

[Damn True]

Ya know what I wish?

I wish the mags would install test and run some different suspension "systems" from the major players (WD, GW, DSE, HRTH etc) and give us an idea of how they compare.

Perhaps one might be best suited for the guy who trailers his ride to the track or auto-x, another might be best for the daily driver etc. But going off what is provided in articles and the companies marketing fluff you really can't tell one from another.

I know, I know...it would be prohibitavely expensive, but they could always use a customers car for the testing, who among us wouldn't dig having his car in a magazine?

[TitoJones]

The only way for that test to be accurate enough for someone to make a real honest judgement about each setup is to use the same car, with the same tire sizes, for each one. To be fair, one person would drive the car for all setups, but each manufacturer would be allowed to dial the car in.
It will never happen though, but it would be nice.
Tyler

[MrQuick]

I think money also has alot to do with it. Can you imagine is one company was tested to be "The Best"? Its a big gamble for a small company.
I would love to do an independent study, check this out. say all top suspension builders put up a grand. Subtract overhead such as track rental and insurance etc. Take the remainder, put it in the pot and the winner gets the pot and be crowned the "Best". Another problem is diversity with drivers and car usage.

[David Pozzi]

Here's a good one. Hot Rod Magazine "Shootout" July 1982

Comparison between cars prepared by Quickor, Maier Racing, Adams VSE, Guldstrand Engineering.

CARS:
82 Mustang GT (Maier)
82 Capri, (same drivetrain as Mustang) (Quickor)
82 Firebird (Adams)
82 Camaro (Guldstrand)

TESTS:
1. Skidpad
2. Tight Slalom course
3. Road Course
4. Brake Test 80-0

The cars were limited to a fiew bolt on HP adders but limited to 180 hp at the rear wheels, dynoed for proof.
11 pages of rules, no headers, very stock appearing, 8" rim widths
Test drivers were none other than Dan Gurney and Jerry Grant!!!

Photo: Russ Harness from Quickor on the left, then by the Firebird, Herb Adams standing behind Jerry Grant with helmet, next is D!ck Guldstrand behind Dan Gurney kneeling, on the right is Bill Maier.

[Damn True]

I'm not suggesting they quantify the testing by saying Brand "X" is better than Brand "Y". That's a sure way to loose advertizing dollars so we know they wouldn't do that.

More like characterize them by the style of driving that each system is most appropriate for. GW does a fairly good job of giving customers an idea of the type of performance and ride quality to expect from their Stage 1-4 kits (though for some reason they omit characterization of the Cat-5 system.

I just think it'd be nice to have a better expectation of the performance characteristics of the various systems prior to laying down big $$.

[Steve1968LS2]

The only way for that test to be accurate enough for someone to make a real honest judgement about each setup is to use the same car, with the same tire sizes, for each one. To be fair, one person would drive the car for all setups, but each manufacturer would be allowed to dial the car in.
It will never happen though, but it would be nice.
Tyler

I agree it would be nice but it is HUGE logistical and finacial deal to pull off..

Imagine installing subframe systems in the same car over and over.. and then you need the same professional to set up each of these subframes or the others will cry foul.

What if the weather changes from day to day (it would take multiple days to do)..

Also from a business standpoint lets say you have 8 mfgs.. you do the contest and there is a winner.

From a business standpoint you now have one happy mfg and 7 pissed off ones that will complain that the test was not done right. Unless you are consumer reports this is a bad thing. Plus it is a test that is filled with variables. You would have to use the same driver and not too much each day or he/she would get tired and affect results.. The main problem I see is time. How long would it take to install and dial in each subframe?

I do agree that it would be great to see though..

[DarkBuddha]

I agree it would be nice but it is HUGE logistical and finacial deal to pull off.

Yeah, like the Engine Masters' Challenge isn't??? Admittedly, it's not quite the same thing, but it is the same idea. I do see your point about creating a fair and equitable playing field for the challenge.

Still, If there were some rules, like limit tire size and RWHP & RWTQ and maybe require each entrant/company to supply components for one common musclecar generation car (i.e. Camaro, A body, Mustang, etc.) and one common late(r) model car (i.e. Camaro, Mustang, G body, etc.), then maybe at least there is the beginning of something. Heck, maybe even use enthusiast/reader cars which have the appropriate full suspension setups from the likes of WD, GW, DSE, HRTH, TCP, Cobra Automotive, Griggs, etc... then do a shoot out, all on the same day, RSE style, maybe even do it as part of the Year One bash or something. Sigh... ok, now that I really think about it, it really does sound completely infeasible and ridiculous. Still fun to think about though...

[JLM]

My take on this is that it may go beyond anything that really needs to happen anyway. There are a lot of people out there that simply want "the best" for their car. That is fine for them. Not for everyone though. What I really want is a balanced suspension that simply works.

Keeping in mind that everyone has a different driving style etc. crowning something "the best" through given tests may not yeild the precise results that everybody is looking for. Obviously there are going to be verrying degress of suspension setups between people that like to auto x, or open course, or drift etc. What works for one person may be horribly wrong for another.

With that said I still think the stock suspensions with a bit of tweaking are more than adaquate. I'll be running G_mod modified geometry on stock uca's and lca's with AFCO springs, and properly valved shocks in the front. In the rear I'll run a proper rate custom leaf again with proper shock valving. The entire suspension should come in at less than $1300.00 and I bet with a bit of seat time I can get it to perform pretty well.

My personal opinion is that a lot of people are simply too eager to dtich the stock pieces, especially when I haven't seen and hard evidence of the benefits of the new aftermarket peices. But then, I have to be frugal. I'm a student so finances for me are limited.

[Steve1968LS2]

Yeah, like the Engine Masters' Challenge isn't??? Admittedly, it's not quite the same thing, but it is the same idea. I do see your point about creating a fair and equitable playing field for the challenge.

Still, If there were some rules, like limit tire size and RWHP & RWTQ and maybe require each entrant/company to supply components for one common musclecar generation car (i.e. Camaro, A body, Mustang, etc.) and one common late(r) model car (i.e. Camaro, Mustang, G body, etc.), then maybe at least there is the beginning of something. Heck, maybe even use enthusiast/reader cars which have the appropriate full suspension setups from the likes of WD, GW, DSE, HRTH, TCP, Cobra Automotive, Griggs, etc... then do a shoot out, all on the same day, RSE style, maybe even do it as part of the Year One bash or something. Sigh... ok, now that I really think about it, it really does sound completely infeasible and ridiculous. Still fun to think about though...

Yea but is easier to strap engines to a dyno than to test subframes.. I don't know of any subframe dynos so you would have to bolt them to a car.. the SAME car.. with the same driver and variables..

It is apples and oranges.. besides, the EM engines are customs and the subframes you want to test are production pieces.. there is a difference

[Damn True]

It wouldn't have to happen in a "comparo" format.

For instance - CHP just ran a pair of articles with a HRTH built '69 Camaro, and a mild '68 ragtop.
How hard would it have been to bring along one of the hot-shoe testers from Automobile magazine to put the car through it's paces and offer some driving impressions as well. That way we as readers can see not only what a given feature car owner has done, but how well it works. How balanced the package is. Or what application (road race, auto-x, aggresive street driving, grand-touring, general street etc) the setup is best for.

I dunno, maybe a 1-10 scale on the following criteria.
Ride Quality
Street Cornering
Track Cornering
Auto-X Cornering
Acceleration
Braking
Engine driveability

I think one of the biggest challenges in building a car is wading through all the marketing fluff, second or third hand info, and "my buddy at the hot-rod shop says..." rubbish to try and make an informed buying decision.

[DarkBuddha]

Yea but is easier to strap engines to a dyno than to test subframes.. I don't know of any subframe dynos so you would have to bolt them to a car.. the SAME car.. with the same driver and variables..

It is apples and oranges.. besides, the EM engines are customs and the subframes you want to test are production pieces.. there is a difference

Exactly... there really are too many variables. Even if you could get a bunch of customers' cars that would allow test drivers/evaluators all assembled on the same day at the same track, and limited the tire/wheel sizes, it still wouldn't be fair. All of this stuff is so subjective anyway. Heck, just a change of steering wheel, seats, belts, etc. could make one car better/easier to control than another that is setup with the exact same suspension. And some folks like the driving position in GM products, and some prefer Fords. Oh well, I guess we'll never find out...

[bnickel]

i don't think it would work with anything like subframes anyway. the only way anything like this would ever work is test major components like say a TCP and GW mustang front coilover system. also whatever is tested would have to be bolt on in nature and cuold only be done to a stock car, any mods to the car at all would taint the results. both cars would have to be dyno tested and tuned so that actual output is the same or very similar. the only way i could see it being fair at all is for the mag to build 2 identical cars using all the same "resto" components doen to the part numbers and then blind testing the cars with the 2 different drivers, with each driver driving both cars, to see what the difference is. and even then you could have tuning issues between the 2 suspensions. i have to admit though, that a double blind test would be cool as hell. heck if it was worked right the manufacturers could even donate the parts for the test and have the parts returned afterwards. still the logistics would be a bitch. but that is the only way you could accurately do a test like that

[Damn True]

Arrrgh, there's just too many choices.
DSE
GW
WD
Gulstrand + GW with or without coilovers
HRTH

All I wanna know is how a given setup might perform so I can tell which one is gonna be right for what I want without having to shotgun the thing by buying stuff then buying other stuff.

Maybe we need a thread in the suspension forum that will allow people to talk about their particular setups, the strengths and weakness' etc

[MuscleRodz]

How hard would it really be if you used a Mule? Say 69 camaro, carbureted 350 and a simple tranny with all subframes and front wheels with correct offsets ready to go?Its not like you would need to get the gaps perfect each time. I bet a handful of guys could have it swapped in 1-2 hours. Cost would be a huge issue, next being a long perfect weather week or weekend. Top problem would be what Rupp said. Don't expect a magazine to bite the hand that feeds it.

Mike

[Jim Nilsen]

If I am hearing the opinions right ,what would make the most sense is to run an article on what each supplier would cost overall with the labor included.

It is more what the visual impact of each platform brings to the game along with the ease of labor to install yourself vs having it done as a package by a professional installer.

If people knew what to expect overall I don't think any of the suppliers would have anything to lose or gain since there are so many different levels of budget and time.

In the end the real reality of it all is who can tune the car for final performance the best and who has the best overall tire and wheel package for the most grip. Afterall if you don't have 1g tires you will never get 1g in a car capable of more anyway and vise versa.

Jim Nilsen

[Damn True]

Existing gripe still stands, but I have a new one.


When the mags do a feature article on a car that is used for Open Track events and they refer to it as "racing".

It aint, and it shouldn't be refered to as such.

[vanzuuk1]

Ditto! None of the cars here are raced, I have sounded off on this a few times already. Taking your car to a racetrack does not make it a racecar. Which is good, driving a race car on the street would suck,peaky power,metal suspension bushings and metal interior panels,twitchy stiff steering etc...


I almost went with jasons plan but I got antsy and bought the cool dse arms. I bet his car will work great, the car wont "Know" how much he spent on parts

[Van B]

Yeah, I hate that also. You take it to the track and everyone says you are "racing" it. No, I race the Miata, the Camaro, I drive on the track.

You could probably get a fair number of cars together to test. I can think of two off the top of my head that are similar enough with different manufacturers parts.

My car vs. Penny.

Mine. DSE coil overs and leafs, Baer brakes, carbed LS2 approx. 570 HP, T56, etc.

Penny 21st Century, Lateral Dynamics, Wilwood brakes, injected LS2 approx. 570 HP, T56, etc.

Only separated by a couple thousand miles.

How many more are there?

[Steve1968LS2]

The only way for that test to be accurate enough for someone to make a real honest judgement about each setup is to use the same car, with the same tire sizes, for each one. To be fair, one person would drive the car for all setups, but each manufacturer would be allowed to dial the car in.
It will never happen though, but it would be nice.
Tyler

It's true.. Don't forget.. the suspension have to be tuned fairly and ran on the same track in the same weather conditions.

There were be cries or "cheating" and in the end if there were 6 companies in the "shoot out" there would be one happy one and 5 that feel they were screwed.. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

My car vs. Penny.

Bring it sucka!





Actually Pidgeo Forge was like that... and the winner was air ride Technologies Buick ... lol

All the cars were very close on the upper end. The DSE car was second I believe followed by another air ride car..