weird starter issue

[taz]

1996 Chevrolet Camaro | Camaro, Firebird VIN F Service Manual | Engine | Engine Electrical | Diagnostic Information and Procedures | Document ID: 18384
Starter Noise Diagnosis
Step
Action
Value(s)
Yes
No
DEFINITION: Noise occurs while cranking the engine.
1
Does the engine emit a high pitched whine during cranking but the engine cranks and fires OK?
--
Go to Step 2
Go to Step 3
2
Decrease the distance between the starter drive pinion and the flywheel.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9
3
Does the engine emit a high pitched whine as the ignition key is being released, but the engine cranks and fires OK?
--
Go to Step 4
Go to Step 5
4
Increase the distance between the starter drive pinion and the flywheel.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9
5
Does the engine make a loud whoop after the engine fires as the starter drive pinion is still engaged?
--
Go to Step 6
Go to Step 7
6
Repair or replace the starter drive.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9
7
Does the engine rumble, growl or knock as the starter motor is coasting down to a stop after the engine is started?
--
Go to Step 8
Go to Step 9
8
Repair or replace the starter armature.
Has the noise disappeared?
--
System OK
Go to Step 9
9
Refer to Section 8A for a complete Engine Electrical diagnosis.
--
--
--

[taz]

Starter No Load Test

1. Caution: Keep fingers, tools, and any other objects away from the opening in the drive end housing while making electrical connections. The strong shifting action of the starter solenoid can cause severe personal injury or damage to components as the drive pinion moves into the cranking position.
   Notice: Do not crank the starter motor for more than 30 seconds at a time. Cool for at least two minutes after cranking before continuing. Excessive cranking can cause serious damage to the starter motor as well as erroneous test results.
   <LI type=1>Remove the starter motor. Refer to Starter Motor Replacement . <LI type=1>Turn OFF the carbon pile.
   
   
   <LI type=1>Make connections as shown with the switch open. <LI type=1>Close the switch. <LI type=1>Adjust the carbon pile in order to obtain 10 Volts. <LI type=1>Compare the readings of the current, the RPM, and the voltage. Refer to Starter Motor Usage . <LI type=1>If the pinion does not shift into the cranking position or the pinion does not rotate, then turn OFF the switch immediately. Ensure that the test electrical connections were properly made. If so, then replace the starter motor.
2. If the starter motor energizes and the pinion rotates, then, while maintaining 10 Volts on the voltmeter, check the current draw on the ammeter and the pinion speed on the RPM indicator
   • Turn OFF the switch.
   • Compare the values to the starter specifications table. Refer to Starter Motor Usage .
   - If the current draw and the pinion speed (RPM) are within the specifications, then the starter motor is good.
   - If the current draw or the pinion speed (RPM) is not within the specifications, then replace the starter motor. Refer to Starter Motor Replacement .

[taz]

Starter Usage ///// It says in gm si starter was not designed to use shims but up to two shims may be used for excessive noise
Application
Description
No Load Test at 11.5 Volts
Starter Motor
PG-260
Current Draw (AMPS)
60-125
Pinion Speed (RPM)
2900-3400
Pinion Clearance
0.25 mm (0.01 in) - 4.06 (0.16 in)
Starter Solenoid Switch
Hold-in Windings
5-15 Amps
Both Windings
30-50 Amps

[6'9"Witha69]

just to double check i pulled the starter and bench tested it. i used jumper cables to attach the starter directly to the battery and it immediatly spin, so i know my starter is good.

This leads me to believe that more than likely my issue is the ignition switch or lock cylinder

someone had mentioned earlier about the pinion hitting the flywheel and making a clunk sound. I do get a loud clunk sound everytime it doesnt start. Is this in refernence to it needing a shim, like the starter motor sticks out to far and hits the flywheel instead of catching and turning it?

thanks

YES. It means the pinion is hitting the flywheel and not engaging the teeth. It needs to be shimmed down for consistent alignment/engagement.

[69camarokid]

YES. It means the pinion is hitting the flywheel and not engaging the teeth. It needs to be shimmed down for consistent alignment/engagement.

threw in the shims.... no change.

[Nessumsar]

If the starter was hitting the fly wheel and not engaging the teeth, you would be able to hear the starter motor wind down since the engine isn't running. Like: turn key, clunk, release key, wind down.

Im thinking you are hearing the solenoid clunking and and and then not having enough juice to spin the motor.

Im still thinking it is a wiring problem. Have you checked the end of your cables? Both positive and negative? Where do you have your negative ground cable attached to? On my Nova, I run a ground cable from one of the starter mounting bolts, to the engine, and from that same point to the battery. That way the starter is grounded to the engine, and the engine to the battery.

I also have had a terminal on my battery break. Happened on my Ranger, the actual terminal broke down inside the battery, sometimes it would make contact and sometime it wouldn't; took forever to figure that one out...

If all else fails, you could take the sheild off, and have some watch the starter when you key it on.

[taz]

And do a votage drop test on positive battery cable and negative cable . Then on wire from ignition switch to solenoid and then make sure everything is gounded properly . There is a acronym to keep you from overthinking things . K.I.S.S. Keep. it. simple. stupid .I use this acronym when i start overthinking things and go back to the basics.
Tim

[Type73LT]

How is the problem going?? You do have a heavy gauge ground wire from the engine to the frame and/or battery right. I agree with above me to have both.

[69camarokid]

i started school this last week and thus have been super busy and unable to check any of the wiring...

ill be checking it out this weekend and do a voltage and amperage drop test adn ill check corrosion on all the wires as well as check my grounds