Would You Use E85?

[DriverzInc]

Here is that article I was looking for. A few paragraphs down it talks about the different sourches for Ethanol. Read under the "Production" heading, although the whole article is very informative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

[71dusterdan]

okay i have been in for sometime now. even if it isnt right for everyone and a cure for our problems it will be available to run cross country eventually. for everyone no, but you build for it why not. all 3 of my engines will be built for it the duster, my driver and my f250. racegas octane for pump gas prices is my factor. all 3 vehicles will be optimised for e85, and built to work with the negatives, as well with the positives. but i will acknowledge reading from several sources that we cannot produce enough for everyone to burn it. as for everyones finances and the effect the corn prices pose, hello, the price of gasoline and diesel has effected my budget, as well as heating oil, electricity, etc. a gallon of milk is about 20 cents a gallon more expensive to me just due to trucking costs, i have to make due, and nobody is worried about me. i know it doesnt sound real compassionate, but we ALL feel those same problems regardless of our financial means. Dan

[MonzaRacer]

For every 1.3 gallons of ethanol produced, 1 gallon of standard oil-based fuel is consumed.
This is wrong, period. to produce. Read this below from www.ethanol.org

A ways down towards the bottom of this article it relates to the "net energy balance" here are some answers. Read on:
ACE Ethanol 101:
Frequently Asked Questions
What is ethanol?
Ethanol is “ethyl alcohol,” 200-proof grain alcohol. An ethanol plant produces fuel-grade ethanol, and that ethanol
is then blended in a percentage with gasoline to make a finished motor fuel.
Terminology is important because the term “ethanol” means different things to different people:
• “Ethanol” is the 100% pure ethanol coming from the production facility.
• Sometimes people say “ethanol” and mean the blend of 10% ethanol / 90% gasoline called E10.
• Sometimes people say “ethanol” and mean the blend of 85% ethanol / 15% gasoline called E85.
Different definitions of “ethanol” can lead to confusion, such as the misunderstandings that “a special vehicle is
required to run on ethanol” or that “ethanol is only available at a small portion of the nation’s gas stations.” In
these cases, people say “ethanol” but actually mean the alternative fuel E85.
Will my vehicle run on ethanol-blended fuel?
All vehicles are “ethanol-capable” and can use a blend of up to 10% ethanol. This “E10” is a blend of 10%
ethanol / 90% unleaded gasoline and is the most common way ethanol is sold to motorists. Since the 1980s, all
automakers have covered the use of up to 10% ethanol under warranty, and no engine modifications are
necessary to use E10. E10 is a cleaner burning fuel than straight gasoline.
Can ethanol blends be used in small engines, such as boats, lawnmowers, or chainsaws?
Yes. Manufacturers of small engines realize that up to a 10% blend of ethanol is very common in gasoline, so
they make their engines compatible with this fuel.
What is E85? How do I know if my vehicle can use it?
E85 is not gasoline, but rather an alternative fuel comprised of 85% ethanol / 15% unleaded gasoline for use in
Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFVs). These vehicles are truly “flexible” in that their owners have a choice whether to
use E85, any blend of ethanol up to that 85% level, or straight unleaded gasoline. On some models this comes
as an option, and on some it is a standard feature.
To identify whether a vehicle is flexible fuel, check the owners manual and inside the gas cap. Also, visit
www.ethanol.org/e85.html to link to a complete list of FFVs, including the new ’06 model year vehicles.
Can my vehicle run on E85 even if it’s not an FFV?
If your vehicle is not an FFV, use of any higher ethanol percentage than 10% is not covered by warranty. People
have reported that they blend higher percentages of ethanol in regular, unmodified vehicles. A pilot study
conducted earlier this year suggests that up to 30% ethanol could be used in a non-flex fuel vehicle, but more
research is required on this subject and we as an organization do not endorse this practice until further study is
done.
2
Can I convert my vehicle to use E85?
In theory, it is possible; in reality, it is difficult. A vehicle could be converted to operate on E85, but the challenge
would be converting it to be a truly flexible fuel vehicle, one that could operate on any blend of fuel up to the 85%
ethanol. There are no companies in the U.S. that sell conversion kits for vehicles to operate on E85. The good
news is that automakers are increasing their lineups of FFVs each model year, so whether you’re looking for a
new or used vehicle, they are available.
Where can I buy E85 in my area?
A link to a complete list of gas stations offering E85 can be found online at www.ethanol.org/e85.html. This site
has a searchable map that gives E85 pump locations by state. The number of stations offering E85 is increasing
at a rapid pace.
If gas contains ethanol, is it labeled that way on the pump?
An 85% blend of ethanol is always labeled at the pump because it is an alternative fuel for use only in flexible fuel
vehicles.
Because up to a 10% blend of ethanol can be used in any vehicle, in some areas it is labeled and in some it is
not. Each state legislates whether labeling is mandatory, voluntary, or not required when gasoline contains
ethanol. Many states have moved away from labeling ethanol, so it is not always possible to tell if you’re getting
ethanol-blended fuel at the pump.
The American Coalition for Ethanol supports the consumer’s right to know if gasoline contains ethanol, but we
don’t favor labels that appear more like a warning label or a poison sticker.
This can be detrimental because people will shy away from purchasing something they are not familiar with or
something that looks potentially harmful. If ethanol-blended fuel is labeled at the pump, it should be done in an
attractive way that shows consumers all of the benefits that ethanol offers.
A good analogy is the labeling of cigarettes. Labeling gasoline that it contains ethanol is like labeling cigarettes
that they contain paper – ethanol is the only part of gasoline that would not hurt you.
Is there any funding available to add E85 to my gas station or convenience store?
Yes, sometimes there is. The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition is a non-profit association that promotes the
development of E85 vehicles and infrastructure. Contact them through www.e85fuel.com or by phone at (877)
485-8595.
The Energy Policy Act of 2005 contains a new federal tax credit to assist with the installation of equipment and
infrastructure to dispense E85 at retail outlets. This new incentive provides a 30 percent federal income tax
credit, up to a maximum of $30,000, to assist with the establishment of alternative fuel infrastructure, including
equipment necessary to dispense E85. This tax credit became effective in 2006 and is scheduled to expire
December 31, 2008. Contact the Internal Revenue Service for more information about this tax credit.
What storage and dispensing conversion procedures should I consider before offering E85 at my gas
station?
The technology for storing and dispensing gasoline can be applied to alcohol fuels such as E85 because alcohols
and alcohol blends, like gasoline, are liquid fuels at ambient pressures and temperatures. However, only E85-
compatible materials should be used in the storage and dispensing systems. Most operating problems with
ethanol-fueled vehicles have been traced to contaminated fuel. Consequently, choosing the right materials for
fuel storage and dispensing systems and following proper fuel handling procedures are crucial for successfully
operating ethanol-fueled vehicles. Although material research and testing is expected to continue, the parts and
materials discussed in this guidebook have performed well with E85. They can be obtained from your usual
supplier.
3
What is the ethanol “subsidy”?
Many are misinformed that ethanol producers receive a huge government subsidy. That is a myth. In fact,
ethanol’s “subsidy” is really a federal tax credit that goes to oil companies as an incentive to blend ethanol with
gasoline. This blender’s tax credit totals 51 cents per gallon of ethanol or 5.1 cents per gallon on E10 blends.
This benefit is a lower tax which not only serves as an incentive for oil companies to blend ethanol with gasoline,
but it also enables ethanol to compete with gasoline, even if it is higher priced. The benefit to petroleum
marketers is that they can offer a higher-quality, higher-octane fuel containing ethanol at a competitive price. The
benefit to taxpayers is that this tax credit is usually passed all the way back to the consumer in the form of lower
pump prices for higher octane ethanol enriched fuel.
What impact does ethanol have on gasoline prices?
Ethanol adds to the overall supply of motor fuel in the U.S. and helps keep pump prices competitive and
affordable. The blender’s tax credit is usually passed down to consumers in the form of more competitive prices
at the pump. According to the Consumer Federation of America, consumers who purchase gasoline blended with
10 percent ethanol could be saving as much as 8 cents per gallon compared to straight gasoline.
Does ethanol help reduce air pollution?
Yes. There is a significant reduction in both carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon tailpipe emissions when ethanol
is blended and used with gasoline in automobiles. Many cities and states across the nation take advantage of the
environmental benefits of ethanol, including Chicago, Denver, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, New York, and Los
Angeles.
According to the Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratory, ethanol-blended fuels reduced CO2-
equilvalent greenhouse gas emissions by 7.8 million tons in 2005, which has the effect of removing the annual
greenhouse gas emissions of over 1 million automobiles from the road.
What about ethanol’s impact on fuel economy?
Critics of ethanol often allege that because ethanol contains fewer British Thermal Units (BTUs) of energy,
ethanol-blended fuel has a negative impact on gas mileage. In reality, variables such as speed, stop-and-go
driving, tire pressure, and the weather’s effect on driving conditions have a much greater impact on fuel economy
than what fuel you use in your engine.
In 2005, ACE conducted a study comparing gas mileage between unleaded and E10, E20, and E30. On average,
the difference between straight unleaded and E10 was only 1.5% - a negligible amount. Some believe that lower
BTU value has a one-to-one impact on fuel economy – this research proves that is not the case. In light of this
finding, more research is underway to examine the fuel economy of E85.
What is ethanol made from?
The majority of ethanol is made from corn, but it can also be made from many other crops including wheat, barley,
milo/sorghum, potatoes, etc. New technology will allow ethanol to be made from “cellulosic” feedstocks, including
corn stalks, grain straw, paper pulp, municipal solid waste, switchgrass, and other sources.
How is ethanol made?
Ethanol is produced by taking the starch or sugar portion of the corn and fermenting it. The fermented starch is
then distilled into alcohol. The excess water is removed so the resulting ethyl alcohol (ethanol) is very pure – 200
proof.
Only the starch portion of the corn, which is about 70% of the kernel, is made into ethanol. The remaining portion
is left over in the form of a co-product called distillers grain. This is a highly nutritious animal feed that contains all
the remaining fats, oils, and proteins after the starch is taken out and converted to ethanol.
4
How many gallons of ethanol can be made from a bushel of corn?
With today’s technology, one bushel of corn yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol. And that number is constantly
increasing. Just a few years ago, that number was closer to 2.5 gallons per bushel of corn.
How many bushels of corn are needed for a typical ethanol plant? How many acres of corn would be
needed to satisfy that demand?
An “average” ethanol plant today might be able to produce 50 million gallons of ethanol annually. A plant this size
would require approximately 18 million bushels of corn. At the 2004 national corn crop average yield of 140
bushels per acre, approximately 128,500 acres of corn would be needed to supply the ethanol plant.
How much of the nation’s corn crop is used for ethanol production?
In 2004, 1.26 billion bushels of corn went to ethanol production – about 12% of the nation’s total crop. That figure
rose to 14% for the ’05 corn crop – about 1.6 billion bushels of an 11.1 billion bushel crop. As the nation’s ethanol
production climbs, some bushels from the export category will likely shift over into ethanol production.
Also, about 11% of the nation’s sorghum crop was used as a feedstock for ethanol production in ‘04. Grain
sorghum is used as a feedstock for ethanol production, mainly in areas on the periphery of the Corn Belt such as
Kansas and western Nebraska.
Why should we use grain such as corn for fuel when people are hungry throughout the world?
Corn used for ethanol production would otherwise be fed to livestock or used for export markets, yet some
suggest that it is immoral to use corn for fuel instead of food. Clearly there is a world hunger problem, but it is not
appropriate to fix blame for world hunger on farmers and U.S. ethanol producers. The world produces ample
crops containing the proteins and nutrients needed to feed the world’s population. However, there are distribution
bottlenecks that hamper these supplies of food from reaching those in need. Additionally, corrupt governments
and wars cause havoc and disrupt the otherwise safe, efficient, and peaceful provision of food to hungry people.
What is cellulosic ethanol?
Cellulosic biomass, dubbed the most abundant material on earth, holds tremendous promise as a feedstock for
ethanol production due to its widespread availability and potential for high fuel yields.
Examples of sources for cellulosic ethanol include corn stover (the stalks and husks left over after harvest), wheat
and barley straw, sugarcane or rice bagasse, sawdust, paper pulp, small diameter trees, and dedicated energy
crops such as switchgrass and other fast-growing grasses.
How is cellulosic ethanol made?
As with producing ethanol from grain, processing cellulosic sources extracts the fermentable sugars from the
feedstock for distillation into alcohol. Unlike in grain, the sugars in cellulose are locked in complex carbohydrates
called polysaccharides, or long chains of simple sugars. Separating these complex structures into fermentable
sugars is essential to the efficient and economical production of cellulosic ethanol.
Is the ethanol from corn and cellulose the same?
Yes, the ethanol produced from corn or milo and the ethanol produced from cellulose are chemically identical.
What is switchgrass? Why is it a good potential source for ethanol?
Switchgrass is one source likely to be tapped for ethanol production because of its potential for high fuel yields,
hardiness, and ability to be grown in diverse areas. Switchgrass’ long root system – actually a fifty-fifty split
above ground and below – helps keep carbon in the ground, improving soil quality. It is drought-tolerant, grows
well even on marginal land, and doesn’t require heavy fertilizing.
5
How close is cellulosic ethanol to being commercialized?
The technology to create cellulosic ethanol is available today, and is in the early stages of commercialization.
Though most of the pieces are in place, the key is to continue to make it more cost-effective and economically
competitive. Some estimate the technology is within 5 to 10 years of being fully commercialized.

What does “net energy balance” mean? What is ethanol’s energy balance?
Net energy balance is a term used to describe how much energy is needed to produce a product versus how
much energy that product provides. Two professors that are long-time critics of ethanol claim that ethanol has a
negative energy balance, meaning more energy is required to produce ethanol than ethanol offers as a motor
fuel.
This is not true. Scientific study after study has proven ethanol’s energy balance to clearly be positive. The latest
USDA figures show that ethanol made from the drymill process provides at least 77% more energy as a fuel than
the process it takes to make it.
The bottom line is that it takes about 35,000 BTUs (British Thermal Units) of energy to create a gallon of ethanol,
and that gallon of ethanol contains at least 77,000 BTUs of energy.
How much oil can ethanol really displace?
Research has determined that 1 barrel of ethanol (1 barrel = 42 gallons) can displace 1.2 barrels of petroleum at
the refinery.
In 2005 the U.S. produced 4 billion gallons of ethanol, which equates to about 3% of the country’s total gasoline
consumption (140 billion gallons per year). This is a small percentage, but a critically important one. Every gallon
of ethanol we can make and use means we are less dependent upon oil and more dependent upon clean,
renewable, homegrown energy sources.

[MonzaRacer]

One thing ,if you read it right the waste isnt waste its 26 percent protein distillers dried grains and its good for cattle feed.
This means that you can use prety much all of the production from fermentation/distillation can be used, the carbon dioxide produced from the fermnting process can be collected and sold, the left overs can feed cattle, the cattle can make methane to run the distilation process. You can also use an incinerator process to make heat too.
The big thing for your system is to not let it run super low and sit. Use a fuel system that is closed rather than vented to the atmosphere. did you know that if you use 50 gallons a week of fuel in average climate of 70 degrees over one year and have an open fuel system vented to the air you will loose as little as 25 gallons of raw fuel on a minimum and you can loose as much as 200 gallons.
Fact , you can raise your fuel mileage by a minimum of 1 mpg by simply having a proper vapor recovery system.
Alcohol DOES NOT HAVE A NEGATIVE ENERGY RETURN FROM PRODUCTION.
The neat thing is I have seen a small scale cellulosic distillery and the fella used his grass clipings. He made enough fuel to race every weekend. He used one 500 gallon tank of propane over the complete race season and he ran 3 tracks last year. every weekend and never bought on gallon of extra fuel.
Anyone wants to see some true facts go to www.ethanol.org for some true facts.
Good luck to you all.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[71dusterdan]

rock on monza racer, i appreciate you putting that out there. i have been doing my homework, and have seen alot of that before. i cant find any negatives there. just goes to show the propaganda machine can be used both ways. thanks for your post. Dan

[Fuelie Fan]

i can only really debunk the one point in monza's link that I know for sure: fuel economy IS affected. I can't believe they'd suggest that it isn't a serious effect when going from gas to E85. Even using their data and extrapolating it (which is DANGEROUS), that going from gas to E10 (about 4% less energy) resulted in only 1.5% less economy, going to E85 (about 45% less energy) is going to cut your economy by 17%. That's pretty substantial. It is also overly optimistic! Yes, driving habit can ALSO affect economy, but that's a total red herring. If you changed habits AND stuck with gas, you'd be saving even more fuel.

I can only wonder, therefore, how much twisting and misdirection is present in the rest of that text, being uninformed enough not to be sure for myself.

[bingham72]

Anyone wants to see some true facts go to www.ethanol.org for some true facts

I sure it's an unbiased source, but it absolutely affects gas mileage. In the end, the cost is cheaper than paying for ethanol in you daily driver.
However, it could definately be a big difference for a race car where it can be as an alternative to race gas.

Long term, the solution is to cut down on consumption. PERIOD. By a hybrid for your DD.

[barraza]

Anyone wants to see some true facts go to www.ethanol.org for some true facts.

The American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) that runs that website is organized to promote and expand the development of the ethanol industry, not exactly an unbiased source.

Their waffling on the fuel milage issue telling, as is the dance they do trying to justify the tax credit ethanol receives.

Bottom line is that it would be great to have an alternative to oil for our gasoline needs, but ethanol isn't a cure all, especially in older vehicles. Worthy of further research and development but not going to be a viable alternative until the price of oil goes up quite a bit. Despite the runup in price we have seen in the recent past, I believe that oil producing nations will limit increases to keep gas prices under what will make ethanol economically practical.

[jaybee]

CSI, yes I'm aware that racing vehicles normally run Methanol rather than Ethanol, but the two Alcohols are very similar. Enough so for the Indy Racing League will run Ethanol exclusively this year without any fundamental changes in the hardware.

Barraza, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see oil producing nations keep the price below that which will allow this to be justifiable purely on an economic basis. In spite of that there seems to be momentum in the market right now. The more the technology and infrastructure develops the less difference in price it will take to be truly competitive.

I'd still love to build a performance engine spec'd for E85, if it wasn't going beyond the immediate area or the geographic reach or the product hits a level where you can get it wherever you decide to go.

[bookends]

isn't it true that more energy is produced from a gallon of gasoline vs. a gallon of ethanol or methanol. if so would you really see a savings due to the fact you'd have to refuel more often than with gasoline? I agree we need to find alternative fuels but it as to be cost effective as well or it won't happen.

[71dusterdan]

you know some of you guys are missing a major point, go buy a gallon of racegas with 105 octane. you can buy this stuff for the price of pumpgas piss. maybe it isnt for your daily driver, but my vehicles after i build to take advantage of the octane, i'll give up a few mph for the increase in efficiency and subsequently, power you reap from increased compression. for some really dumb reason i thought we were a bunch of horsepower junkies that always want more. i cant wait to see what kind of torque my 400 ford makes in my f250, off e85, i'm gonna be lining up at the local trailer park, moving doublewides for easy chicks. hey it is my fantasy , let me tell it! lol, Dan

[MonzaRacer]

Ok as for the fuel mileage yes you lose mileage but you have to remember you are trading off approximately 20 to 25 percent lower fuel mileage BUT your able to run more compression and be more aggresive on tuning. The ethanol is cleaner burning, less emissions and your engine will last longer as there is less carbon build up inside.
Now you all jump on the band wagon of ohh poo this and poo that.
But it does clean up the emissions and like it says you can run up to 30 percent (I have seen people figure out the ration to run 50/50 true content) with no major mods.
I for one am looking to the future.
Now did you all know that for the most part till the world wars , over in Europe they all used ethanol for a lot of steam and internal combustion engines. The war forced the Allies into running all the same fuel.
You guys need to read up a little more on it because the good things it can do and the positive benifits are numerous.
I found a book on building your own still a few years back, I started looking into using Ethanol for a different fuel source as my family has a farm. I remember back when my grandfather was paid by the government to NOT plant land in crops. See I would like to see all farmers getting paid good money for starch/sugar based crops to be distilled.
I am not saying that we should try to make every car run on E85 but if we just had a 20 percent of the fuel made of alcohol then thats 20 percent of pertroleum imports we arent burning AND we are giving money to our farmers instead of someone overseas.
In South America they have been running ethanol for 30 plus years in cars.
If we put the might of our chosen sport/recreation behind this fuel source it would give more jobs in the US and make the farmers more profitable. They can reise sorgum, corn, sugar beets, switch grass and other things.
Celulosic ethanol process can be made more efficient if the demand goes up.
Think of it ANYTHING that can be fermented can make ethanol.
I like the fact that if I got enough people together to do a group buy I could start a distribution of barreled E85 for racers and people using E85 in areas that dont have it.
Heck my race fuel distributor can get ethanol and empty barrels too but the demand isnt there YET.
I get my FlexFI done then I wont have problems selling it as the car can run anything then.
E85 is a good idea and its here so why not use it.
Hey duster ill give you a ring when I get my FlexFI done.
Think about it,,, run anything and hardly have to touch anything to use either or any mix in between.
Lee Abel

[WS6]

I think having E85 as a viable option is a great idea. Competition will drive fuel prices down for all vehicles whether they run gas or E85. It could help lessen our dependance on foreign oil. Besides, why pay a farmer to trash his crop when they can use it for fuel?

Personally though, I am more interested in biodiesel for the simple fact that the diesel engine is a far more efficient engine and it's a superior engine to a gas engine really. No gas engine can come close to the power output and fuel economy of a diesel. They are making leaps and bounds in technology for the diesels. Notice how they are all quiet now? Better fuel economy and much less emissions was also a great side effect to them being quieter. My newest infatuation is to read diesel power magazine. Those trucks make me drool.

No matter what, dependance on hydrocarbon burning vehicles must be lowered for anything significant to occur. Plug in hybrids may play a large role in that for many city people.

Preventing Al Gore from speaking will help lower hot gas emissions too

[Zee]

I think one big issue that most do not follow is that we as consumers never really "see" the full cost of a gallon of gasoline. By the time your factor in the cost of the US protecting the supply of middle eastern oil on behalf of the rest of the world, the environmental cost associated with its use and the impact it has on our trade deficits, foreign policies etc, E85 may very well be a bargain.

Also, I find it amazing that people look for a magic bullet. Well, one is unlikely to be found in our lifetime (OK, maybe just mine) but that is no excuse for not using some combination of biodiesel, E85, hybrid-electric and gasoline to fulfill our short run energy needs. Each has proper applications and I can see no reason that multiple technologies cannot co-exist on the roads. Combine the multi fuel approach with a serious energy policy focused on decreasing gasoline consumption through incentives and penalties, I think many of our overseas "issues" will start to disappear and we could get back to building muscle cars.

[Fuelie Fan]

I'll begin by saying that I agree with Zee, the more alternatives we explore, the better.

On the emissions subject:
Ethanol can substantially reduce HC and CO emissions. CO2 remains relatively steady. Aldehyde, methane, and N2O emissions, however, are increased. Aldehydes are toxic and methane/N20 are greenhouse gases. It's definitely not the silver bullet. It cures some problems and creates others.

The performance discussion and eco-friendliness are 2 discussions, in my view. Maybe the thread should be split?

[Bandit]

105 octane for the price of pump gas? And that cool alcohol-burn smell to boot? What's not to like? Heck yes I would run it in my *weekend warrior* but not in a daily driver at this point.
The only reson I don't go out and upgrade my fuel system and bump up my CR today is that I can't get the stuff where I currently reside.

[bingham72]

So as it would pertain to a hotrod only, someone "in the know" break this down for me.
For high compression engines, IS E85 a viable substitute in terms of horsepower?
What is the actual trade off? ie. in a 14to1 engine, making 600hp on race fuel, how much E85 per gallon of gasoline does it take to make the same horsepower?

[MonzaRacer]

OK so we have some other products coming out BUT in much lesser amounts and for the most part a properly installed E85 friendly Cat system can reduce the emissions even more.
If I remember chemistry right (and several papers listed by EPA too) that the majority of byproducts from Ethanol is CO2 and water, now CO2 is converted back to oxygen by plants so thats a wash ,especially considering that we are not talking about replacing ALL of the gasoline just part of it.
As for the differences the amount of noxious pollutants let off by a car burning both fuels over a set distance, allowing for the fact that the E85 vehicle will use roughly 25 percent more i nthe same trip, the E85 car will emit roughly 70 percent less environmentally harmful emissions over the gasoline fuel vehicle.
BUT the fact that (and I believe they set that test up over 1000 miles) in production of both fuels the E85 produced something like 78 percent less average emissions(allowing for the vapor loss from transportation and all of the emissions from a normal gasolin refinery) BEFORE being burnt in car.
Another little known fact that oxides of nitrogen (NOX) break down, for the most part, in the lower atmosphere. The worst NOX production that gets into higher atmosphere is from powerplants smoke stacks.
Now even when you figure the other exhaust output from the average E85 car there is so much less bad emissions that what ever comes out is negligible. you ought to see an E85 car on a 5 gas analyzer. The numbers are very low, compared to gasoline, in comparrison to what the EPA regulates. AND for the most part the byproducts from Ethanol production are useable for other environmently friendly uses.
OH yeah some scientist in England figured out that a cow releases more methane in a year than the E85 car would over a 5 year period of time. And the car still has a cat on it so the output is even lower than you can complain about.
Face it you want to bash E85 ,you cant knock the benefits, it DOES work, it is good for the environment, it is good for the American economy, and its renewable as the gasoline you use isnt and will never be reproduced.
It has to many goods to try and kill it, and since MTBE is now banned from gasoline our country will be makking more Ethanol as it is a cleaner option for an oxegenate for fuel. All fuel is goingto be E10, MTBE is phased out as it isnt completely burnt and can get into the local water table and poison it. If you put ethanol in water it simply dilutes and breaks down, you can still drink it. Put gasoline or MTBE in water and drink it and you can die or have bad medical problems.
For the same reason lead was removed so is MTBE, and for the most part I love E10 my truck gets better mileage nad I think it runs better.
The other thing is that we can run 11 or 12 to one compression and still use pump fuel.
If for every point (1.0) you lower compression yuo lose 5 to 6 percent then you can get that back by raising your compression.
Think of this, if you raise your power production in exact same engines by 10 percent that would take a 500 hp engione to 550, and I do believe that you would gain some of thelost fuel economy back as it would take a percentage less throttle opening to run what you would have before raising the compression and figure this, if you can set up your hot rod as a sflex fuel vehicle you would loose power but get your economy back if you used plain old premium, but you clean your engine back up by running anothertank of E85 through it.
Besides if you have it around and had say a weekend warrior to play with and could run 13 or 14 to 1 on the E85 (that high I would assume aluminum heads) and only pay 2 bucks for fuel AND know that if they tried to emissions test it your car would pass with flying colors.
OR you buy 5 to 7 dollars a gallon race fuel and the emissions cops would flag you so quick you couldnt blink before getting your registration yanked(provided its dependant on emission tests).
I will run E85 and cost less to run my car over your car on race fuel and heck I can have a second carb for gasoline and still have fun.
I figured up what a barrel of race fuel costs plus barrel deposit plus carrying it around, plus all the other stuff, it isnt worth the problems.
I can have my cans full from the station ,and the car full and still have money for food, tshirts and other stuff, AND be kind to the environment over running 5 or 6 dollar a gallon leaded race fuel. And if needed I can add some octane boost and use 93 octane Sunoco for times I cant get E85.
I figure that after 2 barrels of race fuel (assuming high compression ) at 6 bucks a gallon I can have 2 carbs and a few tools and swap carbs in 20 minutes or less and be back having fun, albeit running a little less hard.
And all for the price of 2 barrels of race fuel (remember you have to have one carb so it only costs the differencr to have the second one. And most of the regular parts available now are completely compatible with ethanol.
Sorry this is real long but the massive amounts of benefits are far outweighing the few detriments.
And the fact its helping farmers,,,, just a great little add on.
Lee

[Fuelie Fan]

I'm not here to bash E85. I will reiterate that I have no problem with its performance benefits. I used E85 in our Formula SAE car while in college. I think a flex system would be great so that people could run "race gas" equivalent fuel on weekends. I just don't think it'll be a long term solution.

Can you clarify your stance on the CO2 production? Are you saying the CO2 produced is not an issue because most of it gets reabsorbed by plants and enters into a cycle as thas plants get turned back into fuel? Or are you just saying it's a "wash" with typical gasoline production?

[MonzaRacer]

Ok so we cant call it a wash BUT CO2 is absorbed my plants, it does not destroy ozone like CO(carbon monoxide) which will strip away the 3 oxygen molecule from ozone (O3) also the other benefits from production and use DO give the fuel a big pass.
Also there are companies that have converters speced to E85 and those do "scrub " the exhaust even better.
See everyone wants point by point positives from someone like me but going on line, and doing some research would let you read more and in a more consise manner than I can relate.
The E85 or even straight Ethanol is far and above a better energy source than gasoline, the reason for it being E85 is to keep the "masses" from trying to drink it and it does increase to cold driveability blended.
Figure this, to produce Ethanol the by products are CO2 (collectable for carbonation,refrigeration and other things)and distillers dried grains (cattle feed). There is virtually no waste (not saying there isnt some type of non recoverable waste but its most generally biodegradeable) from the process.
The output from the internal combustion engine on E85 or E100 is so far down on the list that as a motor fuel its literally the best we have over Hydrogen.
There are people who used Propane but it still had environmental deficiencies over Ethanol.
I will never tell anyone that E85 will cure our energy ills BUT it can take a big chunk of use out of the oil importation infrastructure and its renewable, its made from local crops (of which there are many) and if its made from grains it can produce distillers dried grains which allows us to use part of it for fuel production, and the dried part as a food source for animals(and unless your vegan) for food.
The exhaust out put from an internal combustion engine will emit certain byproducts and I still stand by the fact that the 2 biggest results from E85 use is CO2 and water, Both can be reused and not actually do as much ahrm as the HC(unburned hydocarbons) and CO(carbon Monoxide) which can and DOES destroy ozone(O3).
also the minor amounts of "other" combustion byproducts from its use are negligible.
So here are the big points that sold me years ago:
1: Renewable base production components (corn ,sorgum,sugar beets,etc)
2: Any amount of land we have that can be farmed can produce Ethanol based fuels which means no government plans to idle tillable lands wasting our tax dollars
3: According to what I have researched that the new process of using celulosic biomass for Ethanol production also allows the by product to be used in paper and construction so the result is waste that is useable.
4:The resultant emission from burning it is a majority of water and carbon dioxide, and such carbon dioxide is used by plants to grow and make oxygen,
5: It has a better octane rating for less cost per gallon
6: Its byproducts from production is negligible for the most part as a lot of that is reuseable (the CO2 and the Distillers dried grains or celulosic residue for other product production)
7:My engine will last longer as the fuel carries less carbon to buildup and cause engine wear and it will run cleaner with less maintenance
8:Local communities giving limited tax breaks to distillery production, grainery production, maybe even increased shipping infrastructure(ie more trucking jobs and it can be made a condition of contracts to use biodiesel atleast for a percentage of thier fuels. The locals get more construction jobs, local suppliers can provide certain suppies and services.
9: This is a list that has many more points but for the most part is I can see the big picture that if we push it the E85 use will come to the fore front of our sport and allow us to brand our cars as environmentally friendly.
10: According to one noted E85 proponent, his research made light of the fact that you release more N2O(NOX or Oxides of Nitrogen) on a single run with a 100 hp system through the 1/4 mile including an estimated purge, that 25,000 of E85 being burnt. And he also pointed out that our atmosphere is comprised of only 21 percent oxynege and the one of the other major components is nitrogen.

Also as far as NOX is related it only has detrimental attributes in certain areas (like LA or other big cities). In the area that I live there used to be a rather large fruit and produce farm that ran DOWN WIND of a power plant to benefit from the potash and nitrogen (NOX) output. This farm started going broke after he started having to add more fertilizers and such out of pocket. This place used to be a millon dollar a year buisness and would hire hundereds of local people for picking and orchard care. Now they barely hire 25 people. The company started having problems after the EPA " cleaned up" the smoke stack and the farmers around also found that thier costs went up.
Certain clean ups are needed but some things are hurting as much as helping.
The final note on this is that if we embrace this tool in our performance arsenal and not bash or denigrate it so as to push it to the back burner wecan hold it up as a good thing and say" Hey look we have 3 million hotrods and approximately 300,000 already using this cleaner burning fuel that come from a renewable source" or what ever numbers we have to plug in to the phrase.
Nit pick this and people will get turned off.
Using N2O for power production was bashed at first and now most of us just try to figure out where are system will add it to our cars.
E85 is cleaner, is better for the environment, is better for the American economy and I am sure there are more for the list.
Will it fix anything ,no but it can be one weapon in our arsenal to help and not hurt. Virtually nothing from it pollutes, unlike crude oil, it is made from a renewable source, which i might add that more crops help cool the surface of the earth, slowing global warming, and thats a fact.
Oh and while we will still need oil production but if its not being used for fuel we can become less dependant on it.
Lee