An interesting article

[trapin]

I gotta side with Keith Martin on this. He's right...the only muscle car's that should be getting huge money are the extremely rare/all original models. Everything else should fall FAR below that mark. I couldn't agree more. The muscle car market is out of control right now. Any Tom, **** or Harry can buy a '71 6 cylinder Challanger, stuff in a Hemi and then immediately demand 6 figures for it. It's so totally stupid. He makes very good points, especially the performance aspect. Face it, our cars were designed to go fast in a straight line, not to apex road courses. If the latter were true we wouldn't have to dump thousands of dollars into the supensions. He is merely stating his opinion when he says he'd rather spend his money on a more "rounded" car.



I'd like to tell him that he's wrong...but I can't.

[BADVELLE]

4) If you need a Ferrari to pull poonanny, then I feel sorry for you

...or if I may add to this "slam":

4) You may be in the wrong league!

[69boo307]

4) If you need a Ferrari to pull poonanny, then I feel sorry for you

I'm married and I can hardly afford groceries much less a ferrari, so I'm not speaking from the point of view of someone that would give a damn, but the fact remains that a ferrari will attract more poonanny than a muscle car.

[6'9"Witha69]

The market is just that, plain and simple. A place where buyers set prices based on willingness to pay and sellers for what they are willing to sell. There are always people on either side of the coin (literally). His dislike for muscle cars notwithstanding, the author is like any market analyst. Some rate my stocks down from buy to hold or hold to buy and others say differently. This itself affects the price of stocks. Does it make me want to go kick the newest JP Morgan analysts butt because he doesn't like a stock I have in my portfolio? No. He is simply doing his job to analyze the market and various company specific releases and information. The comparison is the same. Stocks and cars as viewed by the BJ types. This guy is nothing more than an analyst with some editorial surrounding the topic at hand. He may be right, he may be wrong. Either way i don't care as I own one now and don't plan on selling it, ever!

[andrewb70]

4) If you need a Ferrari to pull poonanny, then I feel sorry for you

Can we say poonany?LOL

Andrew

[andrewb70]

......but the fact remains that a ferrari will attract more poonanny than a muscle car.

The only thing my GTO attracts is a bunch of 40+ year old men...

Andrew

[Mkelcy]

The only thing my GTO attracts is a bunch of 40+ year old men...

Andrew

Uh, oh. Next stop, "Brokeback Mountain . . ."

[andrewb70]

Uh, oh. Next stop, "Brokeback Mountain . . ."

Your not kidding. I have to fight them off with a stick!

Andrew

[David Sloan]

Your not kidding. I have to fight them off with a stick!

Andrew

Your Killen me LOL LOL LOL!!

[Bob Johnson]

Can we say poonany?LOL

Andrew

sure..as long as you don't say the "N" word with it..

[Bob Johnson]

just what do you think it cost to take a Challenger and really do it right (paint/interior/driveline/suspension etc) those cars draw lots of bids because guys like me want a muscle car that hauls as* and handles better than the original. I absolutely don't see some of these type cars taking a bigger hit than the originals, because it cost so much to build them and there is a big demand for them. Their value is not based on rarity, but what it would cost you to build one like it if that's what you want. People are wanting something that they can drive..something that handles..and these cars can be modified very inexpensively (relatively speaking) to out run and outhandle all but the super high end Ferraris. Barrett Jackson has invested tons of time and money in this segment of the market. They are quite a bit more savvy than Keith Martin or any of us, plus they have the ability to influence the market unlike all of us BSers..I will be very surprised to see Mr Martin on the podium this Jan at BJ. I buy and sell muscle cars. I have several guys willing to pay 6 figures for highly modified 69 Camaros that are done right. 69's aren't scarce by numbers, but there is a huge demand for them. It all boils down to supply and demand. I'd much rather have my money in a muscle car that has a huge demand and a huge supply than a Ferrari with a miniscule supply and demand. Like buying stocks, you don't want to be a big stockholder in a thin stock. It's hard to get out without adversely influencing the stock.

[Bob Johnson]

To me this whole topic is very interesting. How do people place a value on things? What exactly determines the value of a car or the value of a watch? Is it the total sum of materials plus the cost of the labor to assemble it? Do certain items increase in value and cost after they are finished and shown to the world?

At the end of the day there is no right or wrong answer. To me it all boils down to an economic perspective. It’s about supply and demand. In our little happy universe demand dictates everything. It makes very little difference how many Ferraris were made in comparison to LS6 Chevelles. What matters is that there is a greater demand for the Chevelles than for Ferraris right now. Some day that trend will change or it may not. If I had a crystal ball and knew exactly what was going to happen, then I would be building something that I knew was going to be in demand. As it happens, I don’t have a crystal ball so I build junk that I want to build. If one day someone happens to like my junk and throws money at me, so be it. In the meantime I am happy to have a heated garage and a wrench in my hand.

Andrew

i will step out on a limb..You will absolutely never see the day that a any vintage Ferrari has more demand than a 70 Chevelle. If somehow that happens, I'm checking out cause that's a disproportionate amount of pri*ks running around.

[Steve Chryssos]

I read it. Sounds like Whine & Cheese to me. The author is suffering from denial. I assume the author is smart enough to know that supply is only half of the equation. He compares Chevelle production numbers with Ferrari production numbers. It just so happens that a proportionately larger number of people want Chevelles rather than Ferraris.

I don't see why that is so hard to understand since:
A) There is a larger cross-section of people with $60K to spend than $600K or$6mil.
B) This is America and Americans like Americana
C) They aren't making any more 70 Chevelles (yet)
D) The musclecar scene is supported by a large and well established industry.

I could go on and on. In the end, the author is a half an egg!

[Bob Johnson]

I thought about this last night and wanted to ammend in small part my earlier comments. Bob, you are right. Cars like the Sniper, Chezoom, Chicayne and perhaps even your Cuda transcend the norm due to the fact that their acclaim and noteriety extends beyond the traditional "musclecar" or "street-rod" community. Cars with a legit race history like a Grumpy Jenkins Camaro or a Bud Moore Mustang may have "legs" in this regard as well.

The aforementioned do stand up under the comparison against the '20's and '30's era custom coachwork pieces. For a PT or similar sort of car to attain that level of transendance is IMO tough sledding. Few if any cars have attained the level of acclaim and as I alluded in my DB5 analogy, while cool, IMO the value of a run of the mill LS/t-56/DSE '69 Camaro will not have a sustainable value. Cars like The Mule of course would be an exception.

However, a fake is a fake is a fake. If a car isn't a real COPO, Shelby or HEMI I do not believe it will hold value for long.

....btw, I used the Rolex as the example because most people know the name and have not heard of a BVLGARI, Blu or Audemars Piguet as such cheap knock-offs are not readilly available as with Rolex.

people are referring to clones and I'm referring to a modified car. The kind of cars many of my customers want is a muscle car that has a high horse engine, a trans (be it auto or manual with some sort of overdrive gear), some suspension, big brakes, air conditioning. etc. They want it to look stock or relatively stock, but they want it to drive and handle. There is a big demand for this type car and they will bring big money. It cost to build one, and it will bring it back..and as far as the value being temporary..bull cr*p..This type demand is here to stay..and as long as there's demand, the value remains.

[Bob Johnson]

I thought about this last night and wanted to ammend in small part my earlier comments. Bob, you are right. Cars like the Sniper, Chezoom, Chicayne and perhaps even your Cuda transcend the norm due to the fact that their acclaim and noteriety extends beyond the traditional "musclecar" or "street-rod" community. Cars with a legit race history like a Grumpy Jenkins Camaro or a Bud Moore Mustang may have "legs" in this regard as well.

The aforementioned do stand up under the comparison against the '20's and '30's era custom coachwork pieces. For a PT or similar sort of car to attain that level of transendance is IMO tough sledding. Few if any cars have attained the level of acclaim and as I alluded in my DB5 analogy, while cool, IMO the value of a run of the mill LS/t-56/DSE '69 Camaro will not have a sustainable value. Cars like The Mule of course would be an exception.

However, a fake is a fake is a fake. If a car isn't a real COPO, Shelby or HEMI I do not believe it will hold value for long.

....btw, I used the Rolex as the example because most people know the name and have not heard of a BVLGARI, Blu or Audemars Piguet as such cheap knock-offs are not readilly available as with Rolex.

I bought an Audemars knock off in Tawain 2 years ago..looks just like the real mccoy..he had several of them..tells better time than many of the Rolexes I've had. But a Rolex is just like having a bar of gold. You can readily barter them for about anything. In fact you would have an easier time trading a Rolex than you would a bar of gold.

[shortrack]

This guy seems like a euro-car nutswinger. I don't expect him to have an open mind about vehicle market value.

I dig Ferraris and exotics, but I grew up around musclecars. I don't think I ever saw Ferraris except at fancy carshows. I don't have passion for them, they aren't what I'm into. The musclecar craze is just the next generation phase in the market. Most of us have a lot of passion for them, because we remember the era. As the "baby boomer" generation starts to get a pocket full of money, they seek out restored musclecars that they always wanted. Honestly, there aren't that many younger guys (25 and under) that are into musclecars. They grew up with 5.0 Mustangs, GN's, and late model f-bodies. In 20 years, those cars will be the next wave of "craze".

Look at how the values of street rods have dropped. I remember 10 years ago they were bringing top-dollar. Now I see that fewer and fewer street rod enthusiasts are around. How many guys younger than 50 do you see polishing street rods at the car shows? In another 20 years, there will be even less street rodders, and the values of those cars will continue to drop. It is all about supply vs demand. There will be a surplus of nice street rods, but with little demand for them.

Maybe in 40 years, the same thing will happen with Musclecars.

what he said.....

you'll see the prices of the vintage blue chip collector cars like the Bugatti's and Pierce Arrows drop as the guys who like them start to (respectfully) die off and demand lessens.

I was in a bumper to bumper traffic jam leaving a fireworks display in my bone stock (appearing) IROC a year or so back.......sidewalks jammed....... I start getting "Cool car mister!" and a bunch of thumbs up......you know who it was???......a bunch of 25 yr old hotties!!!......she turns to her friends and says......"Thats an IROC!!!.....my uncle Mark had one exactly like that!!.....LIKE EXACTLY!!!......I LOVE THAT CAR!!......COOL MISTER......THAT THING ROCKS!!!......whoooooooo!!"

It was an eye opener(for more reasons than one!) I couldnt help but think when she gets older her generation will be after IROCs and 5litres like we're after chevelles and 69 Camaros........and the beat goes on.......

[DarkBuddha]

It's all academic for us regular folks... rich boys (with more cents than sense) can overpay for their tin (oy-ro, doughmestic, or eh-zhen), but the rest of us just want a cool car to drive and tinker with. I think we're fully aware that we'd be lucky to break even if we *HAD* to sell our cars (deity-of-choice forbid).

So, if the market corrects, fine. If not, fine. As long as I can find/buy/build/steal/borrow/beg a car/truck/lawn mower and get the fuel to feed it, I'm good. Thanks for asking.

[Jim Nilsen]

I just read the beginning of this and stopped reading at Bill's 1st post so before the article slips my mind ,the first thing about all of this is based on relativity of what a person wants out of their money.

In this days society, if you have more than enough money to throw around and buy any production car made regardless of make or model and especially price you already realize that it not about the value of the cars at all. It is about the value of image and ego.

I feel that as long as there are cars that keep going faster and handle better that are eye appealing and iconic in nature you will have a viable source to create a dream into reality for yourself or a specific buyer. Not all cars are the same thing to a buyer. Comparing a 6 cylinder car with a hemi in it to some car you don't like either doesn't make it a bad car because of it. If you can't afford it, it will never be worth it because you will be broke trying to get it no matter what you are talking about.

So if you are looking to go fast and brag about it, knowing that speed cost money, looking for something that noone else has like it but is wanted by more than a majority of people that go fast and has a potential for being the same or better than the best of what it was at it's peak. You have the clone musclecar becoming more valuable and the euro cars going up with it also. The auctions prove it and the cars that aren't being made anymore will bring good money if they can compete with the high dollar euro cars.

Pro-touring cars are at a level that competes when the money is spent to go fast as can be and the cost is comparable to high dollar euro cars that can be bought by anyone with enough money. But to go out and find a car that is the only one like it but a classic icon that you can beat on like a racecar and know that you can rebuild it and it will still be worth the money because it really is a purpose built car and purpose built cars cost a lot of money for a reason and anyone who goes real fast understands the cost.

Just think of how proud you are of your car and how much you have into it and the level of performance you are at and you can pretty much place the value at the cost of a brand new car that is comparable in a way it would make you feel the same about it. Which puts some cars at the price of a new Mustang and Vette or the price of a new Ferarri or Bugatti.

It's all about performance and the cubic dollars and not the cars when it comes down to why we get emotional about it at that level. I don't see the number of people with money to buy these cars decreasing and as long as there are more of them the stiffer the competition will be amoung them. Those that wannabe and can't quite afford it will still spend the money to impress and help all of the number 2 level cars rise up as they get redone into something they could never have been 40 years ago.

So when you hear someone saying the price is too high for your car and there is a 60K or better daily driver in the driveway that says they get to drive what they want and they can afford it no matter what, then our cars are obvoiusly something they want or they wouldn't be looking at them. So if our cars aren't worth more than the one they drive everyday then they can get back in their expensive car and dream about it some more because I wised up a long time ago and know that a wanted older car that is like new has always been worth more than a comparable new car to someone out there because of sentiment alone. Look at it as CENT-I-MENTAL value.
Now I can go back to thinking about where I'm going to get more money to finish my car and try to forget how much I have spent so far and if I sell it I am not going to take a beating on it just because they read an article like that idiot just wrote!

Jim Nilsen

[surlyjoe]

Whenever I think of an old aston martin I can't get out my head the image of the accord killing it on Top Gear. The styling is awesome but performance is mediocre at best. It was a db5 and they were comparing it with an old jag can't remember which. Anyhow when they did their straight line test a plain accord sedan beat both of them soundly.

So what I get out of it is this. Guys that are investing in cars will want the original car with bad brakes no overdrive etc etc. Guys that actually want to drive it will want a car that is updated. I think the price of some might go down for a bit if the economy suffers. I think over the long haul the price will continue to rise until the people that remember them start to die kind of like hotrods.


The guy sounds like a real a#$ to me. Especially when his paycheck counts on the cars he is trashing.

[Bob Johnson]

This guy seems like a euro-car nutswinger. I don't expect him to have an open mind about vehicle market value.

I dig Ferraris and exotics, but I grew up around musclecars. I don't think I ever saw Ferraris except at fancy carshows. I don't have passion for them, they aren't what I'm into. The musclecar craze is just the next generation phase in the market. Most of us have a lot of passion for them, because we remember the era. As the "baby boomer" generation starts to get a pocket full of money, they seek out restored musclecars that they always wanted. Honestly, there aren't that many younger guys (25 and under) that are into musclecars. They grew up with 5.0 Mustangs, GN's, and late model f-bodies. In 20 years, those cars will be the next wave of "craze".

Look at how the values of street rods have dropped. I remember 10 years ago they were bringing top-dollar. Now I see that fewer and fewer street rod enthusiasts are around. How many guys younger than 50 do you see polishing street rods at the car shows? In another 20 years, there will be even less street rodders, and the values of those cars will continue to drop. It is all about supply vs demand. There will be a surplus of nice street rods, but with little demand for them.

Maybe in 40 years, the same thing will happen with Musclecars.

I've been playing with street Rods and Street Machines for years, buying and selling. I haven't experienced the price decline you speak of. Au Contraire I wish I still had nearly everyone I've sold in the last 10 years...some of them will have nearly doubled, and I cannot think of any that have fallen any appreciable amount..People think the street rods at BJ aren't bringing much..there are some relative bargains..but most of the rods there are out of date or something about them is peculiar,,take the M-80 that won the Ridler..everyone thought that was a steal..i thought it was one more odd looking piece of work..very nice execution..just odd looking to me