An interesting article

[Bill Howell]

This is an article that was in a magazine called Keith Martin's Sport Car Market. It was written by none other than Keith Martin, who happens to be one of the guys on the stage at Barrett Jackson's auctions. Or should I say did sit on the stage, after this article, I am sure he will be hunting another part time job. I will not comment on the text, just read it yourself and see what he has to say about musclecars and values. For someone who thinks he has his finger on the market, I can not believe he said this.
BTW, here is his email addy [email protected]
If you think he is way off base, email him directly and let him know. Obviously he is a fan of high dollar European Rides, but to dis musclecars like he did, there is little doubt he has ever ridden in a true Protouring style muscle car. Maybe we can get him to the next RTHs and have him experience a real musclecar.
http://www.musclerides.com/Pages/pos...ftinggears.jpg



BTW, you can click on the text to magnify it.

[chet]

why even bother? He has already shown to not have an open mind to anything but a European car.

[Damn True]

Frankly, I think he's right. How can a car that sold over 20,000 copies designed by a guy named Steve command the same price as something produced in one TWENTIETH the number (and handbuilt not assembly line built) designed by Pinanfarina?

How can a fake rare car (a fake COPO, ZL1 or HEMI car) command a price in keeping with an ACTUAL rare car?

I don't think they can.

Would you pay $4000 for a fake Rolex?

As for modified Musclecars his points hold even more weight. Imagine we have an old Aston Martin DB5, one of about 1200 or so if memory serves for which the going market rate is about $120,000 to $150,000. (let me just savor that thought for a second because I FREAKIN LOVE Aston's) Now imagine we take that nice old bit of coachwork and install an engine out of a 2005 Vantage and the suspension from a Lotus Exige. Not alltogether different from what we are doing with our Camaro's Mustangs and Mopars right? Well do you think that Aston is worth more or less than $120,000 to $150,000 now that is has been modified? As neat as that would be, we would have destroyed the value of the car. Not to mention the fact that doing so really ought to be punishable by death.

In Musclecars we are dealing with single models that execeed the ten year production of some Euro marques. They aren't THAT rare and they aren't as valuable.

In turning them into something other than what they were orginally (making an I-6 Tempest into a GTO) we don't create a thing of greater value. In modifying a base Camaro into an all out PT machine we do not create something of greater value (for very long at least).

You'll recall the justification for Bob selling the Cuda now, instead of next year or later. It has a very short shelf life. In 5 years it will be worth less than Bob paid for the paint.

Sorry Bill. I just can't agree with you on this. Mr. Martin is correct.

[Bill Howell]

I read what you are saying True, but.....
In some cases now, properly built protouring cars are bringing more than originial cars. I am not talking about the rare, oddball COPO cars, but some of the run of the mill restored ones. My bet is that the high quality cars will always bring the money and junk will soon be labeled as such and yes junk will depreciate. Even though there were 300K (or whatever the number) camaros built in 69, there are way fewer left now. The good, virgin cars are still and will continue to bring the money. I think the arguement about the euro cars is weak, because there has always been fewer of them anyway. No one I grew up with is wanting to cash in his 401K or left testicle for a Aston Martin, however, several would do that for a 70 LS6 Chevelle.
Sure, I am old enough to remember the "adjustment" experienced in the late 80s/early90s. If the economy goes down the crapper again, the car market will follow suit too, but until that happens, my bet is the car market, for quality cars will continue to grow.
As far as Bob's car goes, I stand by what I said, it will be worth more right now than it will be for some time. That has nothing to do with the market, but rather that individual car. Since there is not another one like it in the world, Bob would be crazy not to sell it now, if he ever hopes to get his money back. I have seen him drive the car, another year of beating on it and it will need a total restoration.....lol
I guess we will all see in about a month from now.
I guess my big complaint about this and similar articles is that if you talk about gloom and doom enough, you will create it. You know, everything you read is the gospel anyway, right?

Oh, and dissagreements are a good thing, they provoke thought and conversation. If we all thought alike, we would all have first gen camaros....

[LowBuckX]

I agree with the fake clone thing but would love to take a hammer to his thumbs for the rest.
Why would I want to drive in english ralley anyway.

[TonyHuntimer]

Oh, and dissagreements are a good thing, they provoke thought and conversation. If we all thought alike, we would all have first gen camaros....

Bill...Nicely put! You're the man. ;)

Tony~

[Bill Howell]

I find this amusing. His current magazine, the one with the above article, has one of those "Camaros" on the cover. I wonder if a Aston Martin or Jaguar would have helped sales.....lol
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/

[chicane67]

Not to jack this thread... just a little side note.

...let me just savor that thought for a second because I FREAKIN LOVE Aston's.

I was rolling next to a DB9 this morning on the freeway. Absolutely amazing.....

Anyway. Kieth Martin can suck it.

[Bob Johnson]

Frankly, I think he's right. How can a car that sold over 20,000 copies designed by a guy named Steve command the same price as something produced in one TWENTIETH the number (and handbuilt not assembly line built) designed by Pinanfarina?

How can a fake rare car (a fake COPO, ZL1 or HEMI car) command a price in keeping with an ACTUAL rare car?

I don't think they can.

Would you pay $4000 for a fake Rolex?

As for modified Musclecars his points hold even more weight. Imagine we have an old Aston Martin DB5, one of about 1200 or so if memory serves for which the going market rate is about $120,000 to $150,000. (let me just savor that thought for a second because I FREAKIN LOVE Aston's) Now imagine we take that nice old bit of coachwork and install an engine out of a 2005 Vantage and the suspension from a Lotus Exige. Not alltogether different from what we are doing with our Camaro's Mustangs and Mopars right? Well do you think that Aston is worth more or less than $120,000 to $150,000 now that is has been modified? As neat as that would be, we would have destroyed the value of the car. Not to mention the fact that doing so really ought to be punishable by death.

In Musclecars we are dealing with single models that execeed the ten year production of some Euro marques. They aren't THAT rare and they aren't as valuable.

In turning them into something other than what they were orginally (making an I-6 Tempest into a GTO) we don't create a thing of greater value. In modifying a base Camaro into an all out PT machine we do not create something of greater value (for very long at least).

You'll recall the justification for Bob selling the Cuda now, instead of next year or later. It has a very short shelf life. In 5 years it will be worth less than Bob paid for the paint.

Sorry Bill. I just can't agree with you on this. Mr. Martin is correct.

I presume you've heard of the Sniper. It's short shelf live is being tested now since the current owner died. The asking price is $700K. There have been offers WELL over $500K I've heard.
Doan Spencers 32 highboy brought over $500K several years ago. Rich men back in the 30's had coach built one off cars that outperformed and outclassed everything and accentuated their owners successful image. The current new trend is to high end custom drivers. If you made 10,000 new Ferraris every year, you couldn't give them away. How many Ferrari owners do you know that can actually get out and drive it to its potential and enjoy it. Have you ever owned a rare and expensive Ferrari? Aston Martin? anything?
Go to a Ferrari Dealer and get your car worked on..I've been there..It isn't a pleasant experience. If I wanted something rare that I couldn't enjoy, I'd buy a rare painting, hang it on the wall, and look at it..I wouldn't have to spend a bunch on it maintaining it like I would Ferrari that I couldn't enjoy. Would I pay $4,000 for a fake Rolex. Yes, if a world renowned watchmaker hand built one making everything better than Rolex, which by the way isn't considered one of the best watches in the world anyway. Funny you would mention Rolex since it's made in vast quantities and has huge demand, unlike some of the other rare watches costing many times more and have much less resale value. As usual, I don't agree with your opinion.

[ProTouring442]

"Would you pay $4000 for a fake Rolex?"

People do... a $4000 replica of a $15,000 watch is something like paying $75,000 for nice clone of a $150,000 COPO car.


"In turning them into something other than what they were orginally (making an I-6 Tempest into a GTO) we don't create a thing of greater value. In modifying a base Camaro into an all out PT machine we do not create something of greater value (for very long at least)."

Aren't there a LOT of Ferrari Daytona Spyders that started out as plain Daytona coupes? I also recall there being a pretty good market for turning 308/328 (or something of the sort) into GTOs. I could be wrong though.

As for the Pro-Touring cars, it seems to me that these are the "coach built" cars of our day. The custom bodied cars of the 30s were built on production chassis. Yes, there were fewer of them, but the population was pretty small then too.

In the end, value is a relative thing. Supply and demand, and all that. If someone wants to pay $700,000 for the sniper, then it's worth it. If 2 people want to pay $700,000 for the sniper, it's probably worth more than that. Way back when, some of those custom bodied cars weren't worth a whole lot!

Just my opinion, and you know what they say about those... everybody has one (except my grandfather, he had his taken away).

Anyway, interesting debate...

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[Beegs]

Frankly, I think he's right. How can a car that sold over 20,000 copies designed by a guy named Steve command the same price as something produced in one TWENTIETH the number (and handbuilt not assembly line built) designed by Pinanfarina?

How can a fake rare car (a fake COPO, ZL1 or HEMI car) command a price in keeping with an ACTUAL rare car?

I don't think they can.

Would you pay $4000 for a fake Rolex?

As for modified Musclecars his points hold even more weight. Imagine we have an old Aston Martin DB5, one of about 1200 or so if memory serves for which the going market rate is about $120,000 to $150,000. (let me just savor that thought for a second because I FREAKIN LOVE Aston's) Now imagine we take that nice old bit of coachwork and install an engine out of a 2005 Vantage and the suspension from a Lotus Exige. Not alltogether different from what we are doing with our Camaro's Mustangs and Mopars right? Well do you think that Aston is worth more or less than $120,000 to $150,000 now that is has been modified? As neat as that would be, we would have destroyed the value of the car. Not to mention the fact that doing so really ought to be punishable by death.

In Musclecars we are dealing with single models that execeed the ten year production of some Euro marques. They aren't THAT rare and they aren't as valuable.

In turning them into something other than what they were orginally (making an I-6 Tempest into a GTO) we don't create a thing of greater value. In modifying a base Camaro into an all out PT machine we do not create something of greater value (for very long at least).

You'll recall the justification for Bob selling the Cuda now, instead of next year or later. It has a very short shelf life. In 5 years it will be worth less than Bob paid for the paint.

Sorry Bill. I just can't agree with you on this. Mr. Martin is correct.

Well built 32 Ford street rods have brought more money than original type for as long as I can remember.

[andrewb70]

To me this whole topic is very interesting. How do people place a value on things? What exactly determines the value of a car or the value of a watch? Is it the total sum of materials plus the cost of the labor to assemble it? Do certain items increase in value and cost after they are finished and shown to the world?

At the end of the day there is no right or wrong answer. To me it all boils down to an economic perspective. It’s about supply and demand. In our little happy universe demand dictates everything. It makes very little difference how many Ferraris were made in comparison to LS6 Chevelles. What matters is that there is a greater demand for the Chevelles than for Ferraris right now. Some day that trend will change or it may not. If I had a crystal ball and knew exactly what was going to happen, then I would be building something that I knew was going to be in demand. As it happens, I don’t have a crystal ball so I build junk that I want to build. If one day someone happens to like my junk and throws money at me, so be it. In the meantime I am happy to have a heated garage and a wrench in my hand.

Andrew

[Nine Ball]

This guy seems like a euro-car nutswinger. I don't expect him to have an open mind about vehicle market value.

I dig Ferraris and exotics, but I grew up around musclecars. I don't think I ever saw Ferraris except at fancy carshows. I don't have passion for them, they aren't what I'm into. The musclecar craze is just the next generation phase in the market. Most of us have a lot of passion for them, because we remember the era. As the "baby boomer" generation starts to get a pocket full of money, they seek out restored musclecars that they always wanted. Honestly, there aren't that many younger guys (25 and under) that are into musclecars. They grew up with 5.0 Mustangs, GN's, and late model f-bodies. In 20 years, those cars will be the next wave of "craze".

Look at how the values of street rods have dropped. I remember 10 years ago they were bringing top-dollar. Now I see that fewer and fewer street rod enthusiasts are around. How many guys younger than 50 do you see polishing street rods at the car shows? In another 20 years, there will be even less street rodders, and the values of those cars will continue to drop. It is all about supply vs demand. There will be a surplus of nice street rods, but with little demand for them.

Maybe in 40 years, the same thing will happen with Musclecars.

[BADVELLE]

I can boil it down to this, "perception is reality"! The economy has more of less been in the tank since October 2001 and is not showing a great increase in the near future. The market I work in is recreational vehicles (motorhomes), strictly discretionary income (or retirement income). Our market has been off steadily for the past 2 years, while I have not seen a decline in the collector car market, which in most regards is a discretionary market to most. I personally can not explain the difference, but Big Boys like their Toys and that is something that will not change! I am amazed at what the street rod market continues to do, run of the mill '32's going for $40k-$60k, everyone has one, just like most people with the '69 Camaro, but for some reason they are perceived to be the hot ticket, which is not bad, but this is why the market is not going to change. I absolutely disagree with this jerk off's opinion of the value of a musclecar falling 35% in the next year, you are talking about $21,000 off of a $60k car, this is impossible! It is clear to me that the collector car market will continue to be as good for musclecars, pro-touring cars or street rods, as it would be to go out and buy a nice piece of real estate! My .02 cents, I'm out! Happy Holidays to everyone and continued good health to Bob!

[Bow Tie 67]

Tony,

If you get tired of those newer models you own, I'll gladly take them off your hands, at a discounted rate of course.

When it comes right down to it, your car is worth what the right buyer is willing to pay.

Now, build a car the way you like it and its PRICELESS!!

[brabbit50422]

well. i dont see whay anyone around here would be mad at all about this article...


I for one am completly extatic that some idiot like this doesnt want to drive my car anymore because they built to many at once and its not as "cool" for him anymore. and im even happier that maybe it will make parts cheeper and i will be able to more easily enjoy what i do without these swanky high priced low end simple minded small apendaged wanna be mechanic but afraid to get dirty sally's makeing it to expensive. so i say let this guy think my car wont take him any day of the week let him think that my measly chevelle will only go streight, i just hope he writes an article when one of us walks all over him.


oh and anything with wheels that you put $200,000 into is gonna go like a raped ape and ride on rails.

P.S- i am a car guy i love any and all types of cars my preferance lies with muscle but i still respect high end high dollar cars alot of inovation goes into them and thats cool but the fact that this guy has no respect for our cars simply because they might not be worth as much soon or alot were built disgusts me and make me want to kick his ass.

[69boo307]

I have 3 comments

1) An item is worth what someone is willing to pay.

2) Cruising around in a vintage Ferrari or Aston is SURE to pull more poonanny than cruising around in a muscle car, unless your target audience is the spectator field at Darlington.

3) As much as the sound of a healthy Chevy V8 gives me wood, there is nothing like the sound of a ferrari!

[Damn True]

I thought about this last night and wanted to ammend in small part my earlier comments. Bob, you are right. Cars like the Sniper, Chezoom, Chicayne and perhaps even your Cuda transcend the norm due to the fact that their acclaim and noteriety extends beyond the traditional "musclecar" or "street-rod" community. Cars with a legit race history like a Grumpy Jenkins Camaro or a Bud Moore Mustang may have "legs" in this regard as well.

The aforementioned do stand up under the comparison against the '20's and '30's era custom coachwork pieces. For a PT or similar sort of car to attain that level of transendance is IMO tough sledding. Few if any cars have attained the level of acclaim and as I alluded in my DB5 analogy, while cool, IMO the value of a run of the mill LS/t-56/DSE '69 Camaro will not have a sustainable value. Cars like The Mule of course would be an exception.

However, a fake is a fake is a fake. If a car isn't a real COPO, Shelby or HEMI I do not believe it will hold value for long.

....btw, I used the Rolex as the example because most people know the name and have not heard of a BVLGARI, Blu or Audemars Piguet as such cheap knock-offs are not readilly available as with Rolex.

[Nine Ball]

4) If you need a Ferrari to pull poonanny, then I feel sorry for you

[Steve1968LS2]

The value of anything in life is driven by demand. If nobody wants what you have then it's worth nothing, even if it theoretically is worth a million $$$.

Same with cars. If you have a Enzo for sale and the best offer you get is $50k then what you really have is a $50k car, regardless of what you paid.

If you have a COPO Camaro that cost $5k new and somebody offeres you $1,000,000 then you a million dollar car.

Value is driven by desire, not by what something costs to make or anything else.