drifting

[PeteRR]

It's judged becuse most people don't know how to drift, thus they can't make comparisons on their own.

Thus my comparing it to Ice Dancing. Who the hell can tell who won by simply watching?

It would be like someone new to road racing thinking that the driver of a z06 is better than the driver of an 86 escort because the z06 was a few tenths of a second faster around the track.

But in a race between the two, the driver's skill is secondary to who won. The car that crosses the finish line first, barring a disqualification, is the winner. They don't give the trophy to the better driver, they give it to the 1st place finisher. This explains DE Jr's career.

[Beige]

They don't give the trophy to the better driver, they give it to the 1st place finisher. This explains DE Jr's career.

Yeah, but if you're not the better driver, you shouldn't be finishing first. It invalidates the point of racing to begin with.

[go-fish]

Personally, I would rather watch speed skaters rather than ice dancers. Could you imagine Michelle Kwan doing triple axles around a speed skating ring? Drifting is basically stunts .......................... kinda like ice dancing. Thus PeteRR's comparison.And it is fun to take in an occasional stunt show.

[andrewb70]

Yeah, but if you're not the better driver, you shouldn't be finishing first. It invalidates the point of racing to begin with.

You can't just make a blanket statement like that. On any given race day some drivers are better than others. Some drivers are better on some race courses than others. The particular cars they are driving might be better suited to a certain track. The prep of the car is key as well. All those things are factors in a race. That's what makes watching racing interesting. Anything can happen!

As for drifting, It's very simple. Drifting is not racing, but it most certainly is a sport. So enjoy it for what it is and have fun with it. There is no point to it except entertainment. If you were ever to see it in person you would be very entertained. Probably more so than watching a road race in person.

Andrew

[white79bu]

I wonder if you could build a multi purpose race car for drifting, road racing, and autocross? I have been thinking about building another 78-81 malibu for this purpose, but there aren't many drifting events in my area that I know of. I think it would be a blast to have a multi purpose car that you could drift and then go autocross the next week. I guess it's just a thought. Andy

[Beige]

You won't beleive this but I was putting the finishing touches on a near-essay that completely explained my take on this, but my PC rebooted itself. So instead typing all that again, I'll probably end up oversimplifying myself again to the point where more misunderstandings are made.

You can't just make a blanket statement like that. On any given race day some drivers are better than others. Some drivers are better on some race courses than others. The particular cars they are driving might be better suited to a certain track. The prep of the car is key as well. All those things are factors in a race. That's what makes watching racing interesting. Anything can happen!

Yeah, I cut down my original statement because I was trying not to stray too far from my original point. What I left was oversimplified.
Not only that, but in hindsight, I shouldn't have even argued that aspect of PeteRR's statement.
I should have argued the "barring disqualification", aspect.

As for drifting, It's very simple. Drifting is not racing, but it most certainly is a sport. So enjoy it for what it is and have fun with it. There is no point to it except entertainment. If you were ever to see it in person you would be very entertained. Probably more so than watching a road race in person.

Andrew

I think that it is possible to turn drifting into a timed event.
The basics are like this:
Road racing is an added dimension to drag racing in that you have to do more than just go in a straight line to get to the finish line.
Drifting is adding another dimension in that you have to do more than just follow the course to get to the finish line.
The added dimension complicates getting the lap time. Which is why it is currently judged. The judges in effect are "barring disqualification".
You can't blow through the cones in an autocross without being penalized even though you may get a faster lap time. The judges are supposd to be doing the same job.
Ideally, telemetry could be used to elimiate the subjectiveness.

As we all know, thats not how it is currently, and I feel that's a shame.


I just get annoyed when people make figure skating comments when there's actual potential there.
It's like a drag racer making fun of road racing because the turns keep you from going fast. While true, there's no need to berate something because it's different.
And that's what really annoys me.

Besides the fact that I think there's potential here, I'm actually neutral on the subject.

[novanutcase]

It's so strange to see the old school drag racers hold so firmly to their "sport"! Who cares if it is a sport or not! Are you entertained by it? That's what counts! Imagine someone saying "Big deal, Drag racing! All you do is mash the gas pedal and drive straight! A monkey can do that!" Well, obviously if you've never done it before then, yes, it would seem that way but try it and you will see it is much more than that. Same goes for Drifting! Try it and you will see how hard it is to actually keep the car drifting and maintain your line!

[PeteRR]

AutoX is an objective sport. The best time wins. Hitting a cone is an objective act. You either hit the cone or you didn't. The newest newbie can participate and know that his effort will be measured against his fellow autoxers in the same objective manner. This focus on the objective helps to keep the jackassery to a minimum. Guys disabling traction control and ABS. Sitting on their windowsills while the car spins in a circle. Or standing alongside a spinning car. This type of behavior can have only one end: legitimate autoxers being booted from the parking lot venues they've long enjoyed.

Road racing is not an elaboration on drag racing. It long preceeded the origins of drag racing. Drag racing is a simplification of road racing.

Any motorsport where you get judged on subjective criteria to pick a winner is not racing, it's an exhibition. Like a dog show or figure skating. Drifting may be exciting to watch because of the noise and the cars, but that doesn't make it a race.

[novanutcase]

Would you consider Boxing a sport? Granted, if you KO the guy it's obvious who wins but what about when they have to "go to the cards"?. How many boxing matches have "gone to the cards" and yielded an outcome that, in your eyes, was not correct? Do I think drifting is a "sport"? At this point I would say that it is more an exhibition than anything but if there was some compelling criteria that, as PETERR has suggested, could be implemented in the judging then, yes, I would say that it can be a sport.

[PeteRR]

Would you consider Boxing a sport? Granted, if you KO the guy it's obvious who wins but what about when they have to "go to the cards"?. How many boxing matches have "gone to the cards" and yielded an outcome that, in your eyes, was not correct? Do I think drifting is a "sport"? At this point I would say that it is more an exhibition than anything but if there was some compelling criteria that, as PETERR has suggested, could be implemented in the judging then, yes, I would say that it can be a sport.

Good point. Many fighters have been screwed by crooked judging. Look at the '88 Olympics. Many US boxers were deprived of medals because of judges colluding against us.

Also look at pro-boxing in the US. By any definition it's fixed from front to back.

[novanutcase]

Ain't that the truth!!

[High Plains Mopars]

So again I ask, what is the relationship between road racing and drifting and why do so many young drivers, or drifter wannbes, allude to this conenction when the two are at seemingly opposite ends of the spectrum, IMO?

Any drifting videos I have seen are conducted in parking lots, at low speed, with lots of turns to facilitate easy sliding. Heck, several I've seen are even watered down on the course to promote the slide. Quite the opposite of the vast expanses of a road course with changing elevations, multiple turns, and long straights with traction being paramount.

When I was oval track racing, we used to drift. Of course, we called it being too loose and taking the slow line around the course. Controlling a slide is not that difficult if you know your car and set ups. I see the greater skill in setting the car up NOT to slide and finding the fastest line while dodging traffic that is trying to take your spot.

If there is an upside to drifting, perhaps it will be that kids will start demanding RWD cars to come out of Detroit to facilitate their need for sliding. It also interests them in cars and mechanics, whether any old school racers like it or not, and that is a heckuva lot better than being video game arm chair drivers like so many of their peers.

[novanutcase]

Here Here.....

[Rabidhamster]

okay theres a few things I gotta comment on here

Drifting is the driving style, what they are doing now in the competitions is purely showing off

the purpose of drifting as a driving style was/is to get around a corner faster then you would be able to do it with traction... aka going over the limit of your current tires and suspension. what they are doing now.. is upgrading their suspension, engine, tires etc so they can just do it faster (and show off)

the point with drifting (not the competitions) was if you COULD go around the corner with traction, you do!

it's REALLY hard on your vehicle... sustained High rpm, and your tires last about .. 5 minutes in competition

one of the reasons you see so many imports is the perception that only "jdm" can drift... and the imports are usually easier to build for higher rpms (most are there stock)

I would love to see more domestic cars.. and "weird" vehicles out on drift comps

there was also a comment in there that's not as important but I thought I would touch on. Skylines are NOT all AWD.. infact 70% of skylines are 4dr RWD automatic Non turbo Family cars/Cabs! only 2 models were available AWD.. the GTR (most beleive this is only what the skyline is) ... and the GTS4 .. a non turbo 4dr AWD

I play on both sides of the "fence" import and Domestic... and I enjoy most forms of motorsports.. although my faves are Rally and Roadcourse

[the_dude]

the purpose of drifting as a driving style was/is to get around a corner faster then you would be able to do it with traction... aka going over the limit of your current tires and suspension. what they are doing now.. is upgrading their suspension, engine, tires etc so they can just do it faster (and show off)

NOT true and a common misconception. "drifting" around a corner is not the fastest way to do it, and only seems so to rookie drivers. the only real point of controlled oversteer around a corner is for cars like 90% of imports that have almost no torqe, and need to keep either a turbo spooled or the rpms high(becasue of the narrow powerband). I have driven 2nd gen camaros that had slapper bars that gives a tendency to throw the car into a oversteer with mild axlehop right after the apex, and ill oversteer all the way out of the corner, with just a bit of countersteer while easeing into the throttle and it resembles drifting, but i could outturn that car in the turns with a geo metro.

drifting is NOT fast AT ALL, never was, never will be. ANY car can drift if driven right, actually my truck is better suited for drifting than alot of drift cars, a extreem tendency to oversteer and super hard tires that are super slick, never get traction and can spin extreemly easily(treadwear is somewhere in the 600's lol).


drag racing, despite alot of uninformed peoples opinions takes skill. anyone that says otherwise, i want to see you run 12's in a STOCK muscle car on STOCK bias ply street tires, stock suspension and all. And i want to see you pilot a top fuel dragster, keep it straight, dont cross center, dont flip it, dont spin the tires, get a light anywhere near .005, and get it there faster than the same guy in your class. i can run my drag car within .100et and 1mph of my dial in in my normal track, i would love to see a drifter do that.

[Rabidhamster]

the point with drifting (not the competitions) was if you COULD go around the corner with traction, you do!

seemed to have missed that line in trying to prove me wrong

okay I'll say it again... the POINT of the drifting driving style was/is ... if you COULD make it through the corner with traction you DO. however the drifting "technique" was from going too hot into a corner, with some one chasing you. do you slow down and let them catch you? or do you hang it out and keep as much speed as you can and stay ahead of them? I'm NOT saying it's the fastest way around a corner.. I'm saying that if you KNOW you can't hold the corner at that speed, you drift.

and personally I don't beleive "drifting" itself was born in japan, I think it was born just before Nascar. you got a revenuer on your ass and you KNOW you can't make that turn without slowing down enough for them to cath you..... what are you gonna do? Hang that tail end out and steer with the throttle. same thing with Rally... you go tell those guys that they don't need to hang it out on those corners to make them at the speed they are going (and NO rally is NOT only on gravel and snow, they run on paved roads too)

again I'm not talking about the competitions .. I'm talking about just the driving style

oh and pickup trucks are actually one of the hardest vehicles to set up properly. they are easy to get the tail out, but have a tendancy for the tail to pass the nose.. they are typically very unstable to keep your line. very similar to why you don't see the really tail happy rear engined cars at "drifters" they are really twitchy, and go from oversteer to understeer in a heartbeat.

anyways.. my powers flickering, so I better post this before I loose it

[vanzuuk1]

As a rule of thumb, sliding sideways around a corner only works on loose or slippery surfaces. You wont see a road racer at the top level waste their time sliding around.Formula one guys keep it planted, and those guys know what they are doing. If someone in nascar gets sideways the car behind them catches right up and usually passes.

[Rabidhamster]

Nascar they are drifting on every corner, F1 on really tight corners you can see the guy up front drifting

the problem is.. you say drifting .. everyone thinks you mean a 90 degree to the corner tire smoking slide

Nascar and F1 both ride on the edge of adhesion

you may not beleive me but when/if you ever watch a nascar race watch their wheels in relation to where they are heading and the angle the car is pointing. as they apex those corners on the banks, they are pointing straight down the straight away again, the car is drifting up the track. this is where most of the rubber "marbles" come from .. in F1 it's not where near as pronounced and basically doesn't happen except on the really tight hairpins.. if you get the right camera shot of the corner exit .. the wheels are pointed straight ahead, car is pointed straight ahead, but it's exiting at a 45 degree angle off the apex of the corner.

drifting on it's simplest level is just riding the knife edge of adhesion and physics.. if you let physics win, you end up in a wall/off the course etc.. let adhesion win at a critical moment, it may give the guy behind you the chance to catch you.

you don't have to be completely sideways with your tires smoking to drift... it's just more fun and looks cool

[MrQuick]

Nascar they are drifting on every corner, F1 on really tight corners you can see the guy up front drifting

the problem is.. you say drifting .. everyone thinks you mean a 90 degree to the corner tire smoking slide

Nascar and F1 both ride on the edge of adhesion

you may not beleive me but when/if you ever watch a nascar race watch their wheels in relation to where they are heading and the angle the car is pointing. as they apex those corners on the banks, they are pointing straight down the straight away again, the car is drifting up the track. this is where most of the rubber "marbles" come from .. in F1 it's not where near as pronounced and basically doesn't happen except on the really tight hairpins.. if you get the right camera shot of the corner exit .. the wheels are pointed straight ahead, car is pointed straight ahead, but it's exiting at a 45 degree angle off the apex of the corner.

drifting on it's simplest level is just riding the knife edge of adhesion and physics.. if you let physics win, you end up in a wall/off the course etc.. let adhesion win at a critical moment, it may give the guy behind you the chance to catch you.

you don't have to be completely sideways with your tires smoking to drift... it's just more fun and looks cool

depends on tires and track...that Viper smokes always!

Now I see you guys making reference to NASCAR or road racing...don't mistake a power slide with the motorsport of drifting. Fastest line... Ok all that is fine but what about rally racing? Wouldn't it apply there too?

[Rabidhamster]

I mentioned Rally before. the best example of drifting being usefull in a race is watching Rally on Tarmac stages

the point is... drifting isn't solely D1 competition. the Drift comps are showing off (I have to admit they are fun!) an exagerated example of the driving style. but it is used atleast to SOME extent in all forms of motorsport... with the exception of Drag racing. alot of the top drifters also compete in roadracing/GT and rally.

I do have to say that it is nice to see a site based around muscle, road racing and drag racing, to have a good conversation about other motorsports. typical forum convo's about drifting are "you drift? you suck!"..."if you don't drift you have no skill!"

every form of motorsport has it's own skill basis.. personally I like em all, although as stated I perfer rally and roadrace. however I have held a 7 sec drag license, I built and drove an SCCA clubrally group2 car, and before tearing my datsun pickup completely apart to make another Rally car (prerunner based) I did a little drifting with it