Overall LSX experiance?

[OldSchoolFormula]

Still debating on whether I want to go through with my LS1 swap and if it will jutify all the work and expense. I use my car as a daily driver, and it runs 13.50's@103 as is, and with the 200R, it gets between 17-19MPG freeway with a q-jet and the 3.08 rear gears. In town it's a measely 10MPG, but some of that can be attributed to my foot, and again the gears. I'm sure if I got a well calibrated q-jet, mileage would go up without impacting performance. Anyway, having a nice smooth running motor would be nice with no wam up issues or the like.. but modifying an LS1 is expensive, even by Pontiac standards. I figure a stock '01 LS1 will give me similar performance to my 400 now, even though it may make a little less power it should make it up in weight. It's just hard to swallow certain things here and there, I mean, tunes? $500?! Virtually everytime I decide to change something? That's...crazy. Installation costs are high as well, even if I do all my own work.

Anyway, this is probabaly a fairly broad question but does anyone have any info regarding mileage, and/or performance with their stock, or nearly stock LS1's with automatics in their swaps? What's your overall feeling after the swap? Do you think the swap may look quite dated in a few years as LT1 and very much more so, TPI'd setups look now? An LS1 would shave a significant amount of weight off the front end of my car, did anyone notice a dramatic handling or braking improvement from the motor alone? I guess I just need a little bit more input to help me venture off into this new, and very UNKNOWN world. I know the car will be a vastly better machine, but I don't know if it truly justifies itself, economically speaking? I mean my current $2000 200R4 didnt justify itself economically either, but it did in the sense that it REALLY transformed the car for the better. How much power will the stock 4L60 withstand before it starts to grenade itself? Did you notice a dramatic decrease in fuel economy after swapping to a "mild" cam, say those low 220ish grinds? Anyway, thanks a lot guy's.

[OldSchoolFormula]

13 views and not a responce in the LSX forum? C'mon guys.

[nitrovette]

Well i havent fired mine up yet but just waiting for the pcm to come.But since i already had a roller cammed tpi motor with a 700r4 in it with 3.70 gears and got 18-22 mpg ,i started thinking while swapping what the heck am i doing.The tpi motor ran so good tons of torque,but i just wanted something different,so i went for it.And your right the weight savings is alot,my car is lowered alot and now with the ls1 in it i gained 2 inchs of tire clearance back in the front wheel wells.So now i got to lower it again.Im sure when it fires up next week itll be worth it.

[harshman]

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=14070

[WS6]

what your going to find with automatics and LS engines is that the gas mileage will not be that good if you have a decent gear out back. 3.23s would be the best you can get and have good gas mileage. after that it starts to slip. a torque converter will help ruin gas mileage too. open road crusing will be pretty good though. the weight of your car allows you to run 3.23s and still do well performance wise. your cam choice will be more limited though of course. if your looking for a good street cam you'll be fine though for power. your gas milage will be maybe a little better than what it is now, but i wouldn't hope for anything significant. what octane does your 400 run on? the LS will have to run on 93. that could negate any extended gas mileage.

everything else is going to have to be your decision. the weight savings cant be denied, but whether five years from now will the LS still be cool? thats too subjective. I love LT motors. they look so much nicer than a stock LS engine. the plastic manifold just doesnt look good. painted it can look great, but the LT can still be made to look better. people think im crazy that id rather have an LT over an LS but last time I looked around I only saw everyone with an LS. so I like to be different. see how subjective this gets?

if i could make a suggestion. why not EFI the current motor? you didnt install a shaker scoop and hood on the car did you? you've got plenty of room if you didnt. its not the motor that makes it so turn key, its the fuel delivery system. it may be a simple throttle body injection system but that could be what you need. the savings compared to doing the LS swap could help you get those sweet aluminum heads you may have been eyeing.

all we can do is give you that facts on the engine in question. only you can decide if its right for you.

also you only "need" a tune after doing something major to the engine. many bolt on parts can be added without doing any tuning and you'll be fine. of course a good tune will compliment almost any quality modification, but it's not "needed". also just how often do you think you'll be swapping heads and cams? doing that requires a tune. anything lesser doesn't. you can swap from an LS1 to an LS6 intake and not need a tune as an example. if you have a good LS shop in your area then i am betting you'll find they wont charge you $500 everytime you might need something. if its something straight forward and simple they may just do it real quick for $50 or $100. anything that requires dyno or street time would cost more.

personally id EFI the poncho

oh and the 4l60E in stock form is no stronger than a mildy built 700r4 or 2004r. its an updated 700r4 with a computer controlling it thats it. in good condition, with a tuning that doesnt get the line pressures crazy, and with maybe a shift kit and simple upgrades it makes for a good street transmission. start drag racing it and launching hard with a high stall and you'll have issues.

[OldSchoolFormula]

The Poncho runs on 89. 91 is all we have out West. I'm not looking for any crazy mileage numbers, but I was under the impression that LS1 cars got ~18MPG in town stock. From what I've been hearing, 340RWHP or so is only bolt on's away.

EFI'ing the Pontiac is something I've always thought about doing, but it's not exactly cheap. It'd probabaly cost about the same to EFI my Pontiac as an LS1 swap would cost period. At this point in time, installing the LS1/4L60E stock should give me about the same performance, and after parting out the '01 and selling my Pontiac stuff, It looks as though I'll be ~1000 ahead. I don't want nor desire a big stall converter as this is simply my daily driver and I strive to keep it that way. If it wasn't I'd just go hog wild with the Pontiac 400. 110 MPH traps would be enough to keep me happy for a while, and I figure thats around ~360RWHP or so. More would be awesome but I still don't know the limits on the 4L60E. If it matters the car will not see drag radials nor slicks, though sticky street tires will be used. Are my performance goals realistic while keeping the stock heads, the stock converter, a stock 4L60E? I have 3.08's in the car right now and 3.73's waiting to be installed.

[OldSchoolFormula]

...or should I just go ahead and sell the 4L60E (are they worth anything?) and install my built 2004R instead? That'd save me a driveshaft mod. I'm assuming using the 2004R would simply require some simple deletion of all transmission references in the ECU?

[OldSchoolFormula]

And while we're on the subject, assumign I find a T56 swap setup, whats the T56 good too? It seems a lot of guys blow them up...

[nitrovette]

...or should I just go ahead and sell the 4L60E (are they worth anything?) and install my built 2004R instead? That'd save me a driveshaft mod. I'm assuming using the 2004R would simply require some simple deletion of all transmission references in the ECU?

since im using a 700r4 i had the pcm changed to 6 speed to make it work.

[69Myway]

Plain and simple. Once you go LSX, you won't EVER want to go back to anything else. Its value is in the pure simplicity of how it works and how efficient the entire assembly is in getting power to the back tires.

I am running a modified LS1 from a 2000 Trans Am connected to a 2,800 TCI stall converter routing through a rebuilt but totally stock 4L60E. All of this is running back to 3.5 gears on a Ford 9" axle. In my quest for balance of power and daily driver availability I went with a matched SLP Stage III head/cam/injector package with matched tuning. Performance is stunning. I am running Pacesetter 2000 Z28 non-emission headers ($225) with three tubes on the driver side modified to clear the rack shaft and black ceramic coating. Motor mounts from Brewers.

I do have one glitch in getting the lock up (not 4th gear) portion of the ECM programming to stay engaged. The ECM is picking up a missfire (common with cam swaps) and that disengages the lock up which is needed due to the 2,800 stall putting it in a slip condition at 65-70 mph. It is a minor issue right now. With that said I averaged 23 mpg running the a/c on full blast on the first major road trip and maintain around 17-19 mpg in town.

Installing the LS1 is no more difficult than putting in any other EFI combo other than getting your exhaust to fit and work for a reasonable price.

Right now and for at least 5 years into the future the LS platform is what the aftermarket is building for. You have an unbelievable amount of choices in cam/head/intake/tuning, and accessories to make these things fly. Bone stock they are amazing.

Don't feel like you have to mate it to a 6 speed. My auto is awesome and so easy to drive. When I want to zoom I just lay on the loud pedal and hang on. You are best suited to match it to the correct 4L60E made for a Gen III/IV so you have all the correct bellhousing bolts and distance from the flywheel to the torque converter. Otherwise you have to uses spacers and skip some bolts.

The oil pan is not hard to modify. I had a local welder cut and weld my pan for $60 (compared to $250 at Street & Performance).

Weight wise vs. handling and braking....I don't know for sure what difference is there.

The wow factor when you pop the hood is great too.

If you take your time and look around you will find the swap can be done on a reasonable budget. For example, there is a guy in Indiana that will tune the PCM for around $75 mail order. Pacesetter headers can be bought and used WAY cheaper than the $1,000 headers everybody else uses. Motor mounts can be made yourself or bought pretty cheap from Brewers. Stock Accessories can be used if you are willing to notch the frame.

ALSO, you can score a 5.3 or 6.0 truck motor much cheaper than a typical LS1/2 and do the same swap.

I hope that helps.

You can see more on my LSx swap at www.mcspeed.homestead.com

[nitrovette]

Like chris said if you look around you can find parts cheap,i did everything on less then 1800,including a brand new block i picked up.

[OldSchoolFormula]

KLR, thats exactly the kind of info I was looking for. How are those mail order tunes? Pretty spot on? If I give up a few horsepower here, thats fine with me. 5HP doesn't really justify the very large difference in price. Where might I find this oklahoma guy? And you said your Stage 3 setup included matched tuning? Or did you just get it tuned at the same time after installing the parts?

[nitrovette]

chris (killershark) sent me to jesse also for my mail order tune,just waiting for it to arrive,hes very busy. wait4me performance is the name

http://www.wait4meperformance.com/ i got a pcm he supplied programmed from him for $150.

[69Myway]

KLR, thats exactly the kind of info I was looking for. How are those mail order tunes? Pretty spot on? If I give up a few horsepower here, thats fine with me. 5HP doesn't really justify the very large difference in price. Where might I find this oklahoma guy? And you said your Stage 3 setup included matched tuning? Or did you just get it tuned at the same time after installing the parts?

PM sent.

He is very confident in his abilities and did as promised on my PCM. He is in Indiana but does it all by mail order. We did matched tuning to the Stage 3 internal mods. He set the PCM for my gear, tire size, desired lock up, shift firmness, temp settings, fuel trims, idle settings, and options on turning off any SES systems that are not being used.

I mailed the PCM off while I was wrapping up the exhaust. Got it back the same week and installed.

The only thing you will have to do is find a local dealer with a Tech 3 that can set the crank position learn function. However, if you don't set it the engine will eventually learn it and turn the light off automatically.

[nitrovette]

chris you got it back in a week,so hopefully mine will arrive in a few days its been almost 2 weeks.

[69Myway]

chris you got it back in a week,so hopefully mine will arrive in a few days its been almost 2 weeks.

Wow! He must be busy. I sent it back a second time to raise the lock up speed and that was also back in a week. USPS Priority mail.

He told me he tunes several a day. I am sure word is getting out on his skills (and price) and his business must be multiplying.

[nitrovette]

yeah i also sent my brother to him for efilive and a custom tune for his 04 c5 with cam/head package with 650 lift.and he got it in 3 days.I might buy alicense for his efilive now and use his for anything else i do to it.

[OldSchoolFormula]

Well, finally got back from a joyride in an '00 T/A A4. Thats the slowest car I've ever *felt* for a performance car. Keyword, "felt". My god, what a smooth running and absolutely quiet powerplant. All you hear is that LS1 ingesting mass amounts of air - and tarmac. Being bone stock, theres not even any exhaust noise. It feels more like a high end luxury car than a musclecar. The only indication your accelerating, and rapidly at that, is the speedo. Kinda cool, but really pretty odd. That power band is everywhere, but really strong nowhere. I don't know what the torque curve on a stock LS1 looks like, but it must be absolutely flat. I guess there won't be any more 30MPH rolling burnouts for me. Interesting. It will take some getting used to.

[nitrovette]

Well hopefully ill be joining you in that first ride,my pcm is in the mail.Wait till you put the 3.73's in itl be a big improvement.

[69Myway]

Well, finally got back from a joyride in an '00 T/A A4. Thats the slowest car I've ever *felt* for a performance car. Keyword, "felt". My god, what a smooth running and absolutely quiet powerplant. All you hear is that LS1 ingesting mass amounts of air - and tarmac. Being bone stock, theres not even any exhaust noise. It feels more like a high end luxury car than a musclecar. The only indication your accelerating, and rapidly at that, is the speedo. Kinda cool, but really pretty odd. That power band is everywhere, but really strong nowhere. I don't know what the torque curve on a stock LS1 looks like, but it must be absolutely flat. I guess there won't be any more 30MPH rolling burnouts for me. Interesting. It will take some getting used to.

I hear what you are saying. However, the documented performance data tells the whole story.

I had an experience like yours just Wednesday. A buddy at work has a 2005 Vette MN6. He let me drive it to lunch and back and gave me permission to thrash it a bit. The car is bone stock. To tell you the truth, it didn't impress me either. It was so quiet and pulled exactly the same from 1,000 RPM to 6,000 RPM that it "felt" as if there wasnt much going on. However, looking at the speed hitting 70 as I pulled out of 2nd told me I was going much faster, much quicker, than the overall feel of the car led me to believe.

With some exhaust tuning (edit--noise), the experience would have been different.

Don't let that one ride spoil your impression of what the LSx is capable of producing. That is part of the intrugue is how amazingly quick and hard the car will accelerate while having the manners of a much less powerful car.