Lets Talk Brake Kits

[pharmd]

I can appreciate the "looks" as a major factor and agree the Brake Man calipers are not as SEXY as some of the others that you are considering! Well good luck on your brake decision and hope I did not offend by the recommendation.

Absolutely not....And I will stay tuned for the new Pro-touring brake system that the Brakeman is releasing at SEMA.

[jpgolf14]

Thanks, Jay

Jay, like you I'm just trying to provide options. I picked the FSL for comparison becasue they are very common on aftermarket kits. I have used them in the past and they are a fine caliper. I have since stepped up to the larger body calipers, entirely for looks, how dumb is that. The Wilwoods were adequate for my stopping needs.

You are correct, caliper flex is a factor and will kill some of the clamping force. I question how much difference you are going to see between a Wilwood, Brembo, Brake Man, Alcon, AP fixed caliper. All of these designs use steel bridge bolts to stiffen the caliper. I have never seen actual flex comparisons. But would be intersted in seeing data if you have it.

I will say that a quality 1 piece caliper is much more expensive than a quality 2 piece caliper. So I applaud The Brake Man for using a two piece design. It is much easier to stiffen the caliper with steel bolts than more aluminum.

Finally I look at the OP's requirements.

A brake kit that can be used on his 4th gen for street, auto-x, and road course. Nowhere do I see a requirement for the stiffest caliper ever made. I'm just trying to suggest kits that meet that requirement. Its all to easy to lose track of what makes a car better "for the driver". We are all guilty of that. I once spent $300 on fabric covers for my hoses. Looks cool but doesn't make the car drive any better.

[ace_xp2]

Has the Brake Man ever revealed what alloy he's using for those calipers? He claims it's 50% stiffer than any standard billet aluminum piece. But that puts the strength of the material well into the metal matrix composite range, at which point his prices are about a factor of 10 lower than they should be.

And I still wonder how good they could be at torque stiffness, there isn't much bridge there, so I can't see how it could be as stiff as wider bridge design when the rotor is trying to take the outboard pad along for the ride.

When it comes to caliper selection, another thing to consider is the price of pads. I was planning on going with a set of z06 calipers until I read on CorvetteForums that a set of CSR pads run $300 for the front, and that a set of H compounds in a wilwood Super light caliper was only $200 and would last nearly twice as long. Combined with no one having any complaints about the brake feel it seems like a better way to go.

Corvette forum link:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...-good-bad.html

[jpgolf14]

Has the Brake Man ever revealed what alloy he's using for those calipers? He claims it's 50% stiffer than any standard billet aluminum piece. But that puts the strength of the material well into the metal matrix composite range, at which point his prices are about a factor of 10 lower than they should be.

And I still wonder how good they could be at torque stiffness, there isn't much bridge there, so I can't see how it could be as stiff as wider bridge design when the rotor is trying to take the outboard pad along for the ride.

When it comes to caliper selection, another thing to consider is the price of pads. I was planning on going with a set of z06 calipers until I read on CorvetteForums that a set of CSR pads run $300 for the front, and that a set of H compounds in a wilwood Super light caliper was only $200 and would last nearly twice as long. Combined with no one having any complaints about the brake feel it seems like a better way to go.

Corvette forum link:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...-good-bad.html

Yes the Wilwood pads are pretty inexpensive and have a lot of volume. The standard issue BP-10 compound in the FSL size (pad size 7420) is about $80. I have also purchased Hawk Ceramic ($90), Wilwood Q compound (~$120 IIRC) and Poly B (~$150 IIRC).

Yeah, there really is no magic to aluminum. It is hard to believe his material is any better than what the others are using. It is also impossible for the AL to gain strength with temperature.

[The GMR]

Brake Man Calipers utilize an interlocking dual internal crossover tube / bridge system that is made from a multiple heat / cryo stage high carbon material. I do know exactly what it is and how it is done but I will not disclose that because I believe warren told me in confidence. This is where the increase in strength and drastic reduction in deflection occurs when at non-ambient temperatures approaching 400deg.

To take that a step further, he is also using a very specific AL material for the sides (bodies) of the pistons, this material is also multi stage forged to ensure that the grain structure of the material is placed accordingly to complement the design of the caliper. Again, I know what it is but I will not disclose it, to my knowledge no other manufacture is utilizing it.

I can literally go on for days, Brake Man has done something VERY different then All other manufactures I have found.... problem is that He also owns the patents to these benefiting differences, hence why you do not see this style caliper more often.

Like I have said, Every caliper has its place. Here is a picture of an SL that is actually doing very good according to the owner. This car just placed 1st and 2nd at a recent event as well. This is a perfect example of a Wilwood SL getting the job done on a Drilled/Slotted 12.19 by .810 rotor. If this is getting the job done then its fair to assume that a 14 inch with the 4 piston Z06 calipers will work better when the relative matching front balance is in place!


TheGMR.com has a variety of offerings because we are NOT in the business of manufacturing brakes... Hence Why we cater to all manufactures across the board from BAER, Brembo, OEM/PBR, Wilwood, and Brake Man.

[The GMR]

Sorry guys, I'm not trying to be abrasive. I'm simply busy and wanted to clear a few things up.

Carry on!
Jason

[pharmd]

Sorry guys, I'm not trying to be abrasive. I'm simply busy and wanted to clear a few things up.

Carry on!
Jason

So is their a 14" quality rotor, that can be used with the Wilwood 6piston fbody caliper? The kit I am looking at has the thermlock piston 6 piston caliper but only has 12.88" calipers (due to the race series rotor size limitation in the series it was designed for). I would like to run this setup but with a larger caliper (both for heat dissapation and looks). Something that is the lightest weight of the race durable rotors. with brake cooling ducts, and large rotors, I hope to be able to run a less aggressive pad that I can run on the street, yet will survive some hot laps. Does anyone have suggestions on pads that will work with this wilwood caliper (the BP-20 is what Wilwood recommended), then the ferodo ds2500 is what strano recommended, I know alot of guys run carbotech...Any suggestions?

[Jay@GMR]

So is their a 14" quality rotor, that can be used with the Wilwood 6piston fbody caliper? The kit I am looking at has the thermlock piston 6 piston caliper but only has 12.88" calipers (due to the race series rotor size limitation in the series it was designed for). I would like to run this setup but with a larger caliper (both for heat dissapation and looks). Something that is the lightest weight of the race durable rotors. with brake cooling ducts, and large rotors, I hope to be able to run a less aggressive pad that I can run on the street, yet will survive some hot laps. Does anyone have suggestions on pads that will work with this wilwood caliper (the BP-20 is what Wilwood recommended), then the ferodo ds2500 is what strano recommended, I know alot of guys run carbotech...Any suggestions?

I see no reason why you could not run Wilwoods very common 14"x1.25" GT rotor in place of the supplied 12.88" with the SL6R caliper kit if this is the caliper you feel you need. The caliper bracket supplied with the SL6R race kit is the same dimension as the FNSL6R 14" kit. You will just need to utilize a spacer (usually supplied with the radial mount bracket) on the 2 mounting studs to raise the caliper up to sit correctly on the rotor. Let me know if you need us to quote you on this setup and I will contact our Wilwood rep to sort out your particular needs and get you a price.

Another suggestion would be to just purchase the FNSL6R 14" kit (only lacking the Thermlock Pistons) and run it. Assuming this is more for the street with an occasional track appearance, you may benefit from the standard stainless pistons with dust boots that the FNSL6R's utilize? The SL6R "race" kit is nice if you really need the thermlock pistons, but you do lose the dust boot that does help in street applications. Just something to think about.

Regards, Jay

[ace_xp2]

Sorry guys, I'm not trying to be abrasive. I'm simply busy and wanted to clear a few things up.

Hey, don't be silly, you're not being abrasive. I've simply a boundless curiosity for these things and a need to know what makes things better.

You don't have to disclose the design of the crossover tube, it's in patent 5515948.So it's steel bridging then, and the the two steel tubes at either end are hollow and held by a bolt on one side and then by a nut on the opposite end so as to allow the fluid to get in. I see that the claim is that the two transfer tubes increase the rate at which the fluid can get through to the opposite end of the caliper. Which is interesting, as it implies that the typical transfer tube is small enough to act a a restriction in the brake line. But I've been the victim of leaving the bleeder open before and must note that there is precious little braking force available when that is the case.

I'm guessing the pad retention/c channel bridge on either end is also made of steel. Which makes sense as I've always wondered why there were additional bolts low on the caliper. It seemed odd to make the two lower parts of the c channel units seperate entities from the main bodies when they wouldn't contribute to stressed bridge strength anyways. But then it's not the same as an bolt stressed aluminium bridge, due to the material it doesn't need to be.

The only patent I can find by him is the one previously listed though, and that doesn't cover the c channel bridge nor any metallurgical specifics. I suppose it may be defensible as it is already in the design, but I still think if there was a major advantage to that bridge it would've been copied by now.

Don't forget, racers dealt with flexy calipers for years because the advantages of a bigger rotor and a notable decrease in the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight was worth it. What I'm saying is that flex may make for a reduction in feel and an increase in pad taper, but if it comes with reduced bridge height the gain in rotor size may be worth it.

[The GMR]

Hey, don't be silly, you're not being abrasive. I've simply a boundless curiosity for these things and a need to know what makes things better.

You don't have to disclose the design of the crossover tube, it's in patent 5515948.So it's steel bridging then, and the the two steel tubes at either end are hollow and held by a bolt on one side and then by a nut on the opposite end so as to allow the fluid to get in. I see that the claim is that the two transfer tubes increase the rate at which the fluid can get through to the opposite end of the caliper. Which is interesting, as it implies that the typical transfer tube is small enough to act a a restriction in the brake line. But I've been the victim of leaving the bleeder open before and must note that there is precious little braking force available when that is the case.



I'm guessing the pad retention/c channel bridge on either end is also made of steel. Which makes sense as I've always wondered why there were additional bolts low on the caliper. It seemed odd to make the two lower parts of the c channel units seperate entities from the main bodies when they wouldn't contribute to stressed bridge strength anyways. But then it's not the same as an bolt stressed aluminium bridge, due to the material it doesn't need to be.

Yes the Bridges are Steel, very specific material selection along with manufacturing process.

The only patent I can find by him is the one previously listed though, and that doesn't cover the c channel bridge nor any metallurgical specifics. I suppose it may be defensible as it is already in the design, but I still think if there was a major advantage to that bridge it would've been copied by now.

The Cross Over Tubes, Bridge Design / implementation, and the Hurricane rotors (U.S. patent number # 5,626,211) are Three patents I know about... mainly because I was actually looking into building calipers but my machinist stumbled upon the caliper patents about a year back.

Don't forget, racers dealt with flexy calipers for years because the advantages of a bigger rotor and a notable decrease in the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight was worth it. What I'm saying is that flex may make for a reduction in feel and an increase in pad taper, but if it comes with reduced bridge height the gain in rotor size may be worth it.

Just like most I was very skeptical when first introduced to Brake man, after spending time talking over everything with Warren, and doing my own research I concluded that he does have the knowledge to back up his statements. When I get the new items complete and pictures taken I will be sure to post. But the OP does have MANY options on the table. Most of which will work out just fine for his desired application as long as everything is setup correctly.

jason

[ace_xp2]

It's funny, the PatentGenius website lets you click the authors name, but doesn't display his additional patents.
patent 7137488 is for the C channels, but I think porsche would have something to say about that:

That design was on the 930 a little less than 30 years before his patent.

[pharmd]

I see no reason why you could not run Wilwoods very common 14"x1.25" GT rotor in place of the supplied 12.88" with the SL6R caliper kit if this is the caliper you feel you need. The caliper bracket supplied with the SL6R race kit is the same dimension as the FNSL6R 14" kit. You will just need to utilize a spacer (usually supplied with the radial mount bracket) on the 2 mounting studs to raise the caliper up to sit correctly on the rotor. Let me know if you need us to quote you on this setup and I will contact our Wilwood rep to sort out your particular needs and get you a price.

Another suggestion would be to just purchase the FNSL6R 14" kit (only lacking the Thermlock Pistons) and run it. Assuming this is more for the street with an occasional track appearance, you may benefit from the standard stainless pistons with dust boots that the FNSL6R's utilize? The SL6R "race" kit is nice if you really need the thermlock pistons, but you do lose the dust boot that does help in street applications. Just something to think about.



Regards, Jay

Yeah I would be interested in knowing is that conversion can be done..or if you could just order it with the larger caliper from the get go...saving a little extra from having to purchase 2 sets of rotors. I like the thought of thermlock, as if I get heavier into racing I will already have them. The car will make close to 500rwhp, and with the RR kmember, tubular a arms, 10 bolt, lighter seats, lighter wheels, etc, the car will be fairly light as full street fbodies go (probably closer to 3400 with full tank).

[Jay@GMR]

Yeah I would be interested in knowing is that conversion can be done..or if you could just order it with the larger caliper from the get go...saving a little extra from having to purchase 2 sets of rotors. I like the thought of thermlock, as if I get heavier into racing I will already have them. The car will make close to 500rwhp, and with the RR kmember, tubular a arms, 10 bolt, lighter seats, lighter wheels, etc, the car will be fairly light as full street fbodies go (probably closer to 3400 with full tank).

Working on it! I will PM you a price soon.

Thanks, Jay

[Jay@GMR]

PM Sent! Sorry for delay (was waiting on tech info from Wilwood) Thanks, Jay