Lets Talk Brake Kits

[pharmd]

So I have a full weight 02 Camaro currently with stock brakes. I am shopping an upgrade on the fronts (for now) as most folks comment that the rears are totally adequate with the proper pad. I have access to preferential pricing on GM products thru a dealer friend, and I am a reseller of Wilwood brakes. Obviously I want better braking. The car will likely be 50% autox, 30% road course and 20% street (but during parts of the year those could change). So I need a well rounded braking setup, and Pad selection will be key. I don't want to run dedicated race pads, autox pads, and street pads, as I don't have time to be swapping pads all the time with work and remodeling our house. Im not saying cost is not an option, because it is, but I'm willing to pay a little more for the aftermarkets if they are worth it.

I called Wilwood last week and discussed my situation...the guy I talked to suggested Forged Narrow Superlite 6R Big Brake Front Brake Kit (Hat) over the Superlite 6R Big Brake Front Brake Kit (Race). They said the pad on the race brake wouldn't work well (not rotor friendly) for the street. BUT pads can be swapped right? They recommended their BP-20 pad for my specific needs.

Obviously the other good option is a C6 base or Z06 kit. I could purchase track brackets, buy the parts thru the discounted dealer and be out the door fairly affordably I suppose. This kit probably doesn't have the asthetics of the other kit.

So if you guys were me, which front brake kit would you go with? What reports or history do we have on the Wilwoods? What front/rear pads should I plan on running?



Thanks for any and all assistance!

[SLO_Z28]

What is wrong with your current brakes that you want to replace them? The LS1 brakes with the right pads are more than sufficient for track use. The wilwood kits are a waste of money and too heavy, they have less clamping force than the stock calipers. Your current calipers are equivalent to a C5Z06, and C6 setup, I wouldn't even look at Brembo as they make garbage IMO. The 99-07 trucks have a better caliper than any of the corvettes and there are people making kits to adapt those now, so thats an option. Another option is a company called "The Brake Man", they make a F4 Tornado caliper setup that has more clamping force of the stock brakes, is much stronger than anything than wilwood or baer makes, and it releases quicker. The low drag pistons on the Brake Man calipers are something that no other caliper matches, and is something you can really feel, it is the equivalent of a 40hp drag on a standard caliper, and it weighs less.

What would I do if I were you? Put some Hawk HP+ pads in, and get some decent 2 piece rotors with the stock setup.

[jpgolf14]

What is wrong with your current brakes that you want to replace them? The LS1 brakes with the right pads are more than sufficient for track use. The wilwood kits are a waste of money and too heavy, they have less clamping force than the stock calipers. Your current calipers are equivalent to a C5Z06, and C6 setup, I wouldn't even look at Brembo as they make garbage IMO. The 99-07 trucks have a better caliper than any of the corvettes and there are people making kits to adapt those now, so thats an option. Another option is a company called "The Brake Man", they make a F4 Tornado caliper setup that has more clamping force of the stock brakes, is much stronger than anything than wilwood or baer makes, and it releases quicker. The low drag pistons on the Brake Man calipers are something that no other caliper matches, and is something you can really feel, it is the equivalent of a 40hp drag on a standard caliper, and it weighs less.

What would I do if I were you? Put some Hawk HP+ pads in, and get some decent 2 piece rotors with the stock setup.

There is no way the OEM brakes will work on the road course without high temp pads. The OP said he doesn't want to be switching pads all the time. That means finding a setup that is overkill enough to work on the road course with street pads. That is some pretty serious overkill on a heavy 4th gen with a log of power. My suggestion would be to take a look at the Gen 2 CTS-V Brembos. They have a huge 14.66" x 1.33" rotor, high volume pads, and a large caliper. All of those features will help keep the pad temperatures down on the road course.

Don't be fooled by claims of "higher braking force". All that really means is that the calipers have larger piston area. Braking force doesn't really matter at all. What matters is braking torque. Brake torque is force * moment arm. The moment arm being the distance from the center of the rotor to roughly the center of the pad. The downside to larger piston area is that you will have a longer pedal with lower effort. It is a tradeoff. The beauty of the larger rotor is you get more brake torque for "free". In other words, it stops the car better without making the pedal longer. Further is looks like the Brake Man calipers are available in many piston sizes from less to more area than the stock calipers.

I also question the use of low drag pistons. Typically that results in the piston being retracted to far when you take your foot off the brake. That means next time the pedal will be longer as the pad has to travel further to contact the rotor. Do you have any tech info those calipers? How do they accomplish low drag?

John

[pharmd]

Most folks the do any serious racing have upgraded over stock. Stock maybe fine upgrading a 1st or 2nd gen for heavy street use, but these cars weigh close to 4K with full tank and 1 passenger. Most guys on FFRAX have gone c6, CTSV or aftermarket. Like I said, I am a reseller of Wilwood, so it wouldn't be bad to run what you sell. But since its a shop car, testing many different options isn't a pad plan either. Asthetics of a nicer caliper isn't a bad thing either. Additionally I understand that pads for aftermarket calipers are lower cost than stockers also.

[SLO_Z28]

With the right pad compound you can accomplish a .48μ from 70 degrees to about 1000, while this is short of the .59-.65μ that race pads will have at heat it is more than enough to overwhelm street tires. I would argue that the additional weight and MUCH higher polar moment of inertia of the big brakes is much more detrimental than any gains seen from the additional lever arm on the kits were talking about.

There are a number of good papers that talk about how he accomplishes what he does with the calipers, are you a member of the SAE?

[pharmd]

With the right pad compound you can accomplish a .48μ from 70 degrees to about 1000, while this is short of the .59-.65μ that race pads will have at heat it is more than enough to overwhelm street tires. I would argue that the additional weight and MUCH higher polar moment of inertia of the big brakes is much more detrimental than any gains seen from the additional lever arm on the kits were talking about.

There are a number of good papers that talk about how he accomplishes what he does with the calipers, are you a member of the SAE?

I guess my question would be...then why would ANYONE run Baer, Brembo, Alcon, Stoptech, Wilwood etc...if stock is fine with a pad change...IMHO that is crazy. Is the stock setup an economical one, absolutely, but dispite the breadth of technical knowledge you have provided, I would have a hard time believing that C6, or CTSV or aftermarket setups arent more formidable. I have spoken with the editors of GMHTP about their "sti killer" build. They have had stock ls1 brakes, Baer 6 piston, CTSV, and 5th gen camaro rotors with C6 zo6 calipers...so far the latter has been their favorite setup....so IDK how stock can be adequate?

[jpgolf14]

With the right pad compound you can accomplish a .48μ from 70 degrees to about 1000, while this is short of the .59-.65μ that race pads will have at heat it is more than enough to overwhelm street tires. I would argue that the additional weight and MUCH higher polar moment of inertia of the big brakes is much more detrimental than any gains seen from the additional lever arm on the kits were talking about.

There are a number of good papers that talk about how he accomplishes what he does with the calipers, are you a member of the SAE?

What pad are you referring to? Have a coefficient of friction / temperature chart handy? I always worry about the borderline street/track pads. I am a stickler for quiet brakes. Nothing worse than a well thought out car with squeaky brakes.

I have run Wilwood BP 10 pads in the past that have been really good over 700 degrees but never had them above 800. 1000 seems pretty extreme for a street pad. This was on a lighter weight 3rd gen with only 300rwhp / 400rwtq on a 13" x 1.1" rotor. I would have to imagine with a smaller rotor, more weight, and more horse power, the OP will not be able to use a street pad.

The additional mass and radius always buys better braking. Sure there are other downsides like higher un-sprung and rotational weight. Everything in a car is a compromise. Most of us on here are not all out racers, including myself. For me overkill on brakes is worth the weight. Hitting the margins just right is fine for racers. Of course racers wouldn't be running street pads either.

Regarding SAE, no I am not a member, I am an aircraft guy, cars are my hobby. A paragraph paraphrasing the technology would be fine.

[pharmd]

What pad are you referring to? Have a coefficient of friction / temperature chart handy? I always worry about the borderline street/track pads. I am a stickler for quiet brakes. Nothing worse than a well thought out car with squeaky brakes.

I have run Wilwood BP 10 pads in the past that have been really good over 700 degrees but never had them above 800. 1000 seems pretty extreme for a street pad. This was on a lighter weight 3rd gen with only 300rwhp / 400rwtq on a 13" x 1.1" rotor. I would have to imagine with a smaller rotor, more weight, and more horse power, the OP will not be able to use a street pad.

The additional mass and radius always buys better braking. Sure there are other downsides like higher un-sprung and rotational weight. Everything in a car is a compromise. Most of us on here are not all out racers, including myself. For me overkill on brakes is worth the weight. Hitting the margins just right is fine for racers. Of course racers wouldn't be running street pads either.

Regarding SAE, no I am not a member, I am an aircraft guy, cars are my hobby. A paragraph paraphrasing the technology would be fine.

Car will make around 500rwhp when all said and done, car has a few lightened pieces, but is still likely going to be heavy. Would the BP 20 pad be a good compromise (street/track) considering the power/weight of the car? That was the recommendation of Wilwood.

[jpgolf14]

Car will make around 500rwhp when all said and done, car has a few lightened pieces, but is still likely going to be heavy. Would the BP 20 pad be a good compromise (street/track) considering the power/weight of the car? That was the recommendation of Wilwood.

The BP-20 will probably work ok. It is advertised to over 900 degrees. They might be a bit soft the first stop or two in the morning. My BP-10's were soft until they got a tiny bit of heat into them. I'm sure the 20's will be worse. I also don't know about noise. The BP-10's are quiet and moderatley dusty.

I would run the biggest rotor possible. Something like a 14"x1.25" in order to keep temperature out of the pads. With this combo I'd say there is a pretty decent chance you can run street pads on the road course.

What caliper are you thinking about, the SLR6? I ran the 4 piston version, the FSL. I liked them alot. Another option would be to run one of their big calipers like the W6A which will keep heat out of the pads even better.

I would still take a look at the CTS-V brakes though. They really aren't that costly. And they work really well on the 4200lb, 556HP CTS-V.

[pharmd]

Wilwood Road Race brakes, these are the ones I think would probably be considered their highest performance setup...but the tech guy suggested I run the
Wilwood SL6R...he said simply because the pad choice on the race setup was too harsh for daily driving. Well can't the pads we changed??? I want the best setup I can run (best durability/longevity/performance) within this price range. I am considering the CTSV and Gen 5 camaro brakes, but they all require modifications and I don't want to get into a situation where the car is held up from getting back on the road because we are having to fabricate or wait for parts. I know those are quality brake setups though.

[jpgolf14]

Wilwood Road Race brakes, these are the ones I think would probably be considered their highest performance setup...but the tech guy suggested I run the
Wilwood SL6R...he said simply because the pad choice on the race setup was too harsh for daily driving. Well can't the pads we changed??? I want the best setup I can run (best durability/longevity/performance) within this price range. I am considering the CTSV and Gen 5 camaro brakes, but they all require modifications and I don't want to get into a situation where the car is held up from getting back on the road because we are having to fabricate or wait for parts. I know those are quality brake setups though.

Those SL6's are a nice midsized caliper. They are by no means the best Wilwood makes. The W6A is their common big caliper. Those are the calipers typically used on the modern Vette kits. And the Integra is just plain stupid.

On a fourth gen, the swap to the Gen II CTS-V looks like its really easy. Check this link.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...s/viewall.html

[pharmd]

Those SL6's are a nice midsized caliper. They are by no means the best Wilwood makes. The W6A is their common big caliper. Those are the calipers typically used on the modern Vette kits. And the Integra is just plain stupid.

On a fourth gen, the swap to the Gen II CTS-V looks like its really easy. Check this link.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...s/viewall.html

Yeah, I talked with GMHTP about the brake issue...they said their current setup of gen 5 camaro calipers with CTS-V rotors (or C6Z rotors, can't remember) was probably their best setup, but they were going to have to swap to a 3rd Gen master cylinder because the stocker wasn't up to the challenge. I just hate to have to modify fabricate etc a bunch of stuff to retrofit. When you factor what the GM parts cost, then labor, then a new master cylinder...and not really knowing how they will perform (GMHTP has had issues with rear brake bias) do you need a proportioning valve or not...it all makes my head spin, and I'd be willing to pay a little more for the Wilwoods and call it a day...But I see what you are saying, the W6A is their premier Caliper...I wonder if that Vette kit would work on the fbody? My wheels are 18" Forgestar CF5's, and they are clearanced for big brake kits.

[Jay@GMR]

Here is some good reading...... http://www.thebrakeman.com/pbr_vs__tbm

Here is an option..... http://www.thebrakeman.com/camaro_82_02

The GMR is a "Brake Man" dealer should this be a direction you want to go?

Regards, Jay

[jpgolf14]

Here is some good reading...... http://www.thebrakeman.com/pbr_vs__tbm

Here is an option..... http://www.thebrakeman.com/camaro_82_02

The GMR is a "Brake Man" dealer should this be a direction you want to go?

Regards, Jay

Thanks for the links. I was looking for some real technical content though.

Honestly, I have never used the Brake Man products or the OEM PBR's. But I have to say, is that site for real?


"All caliper manufacturers claim they have what it takes to compete with us, unfortunately they don't. "
Really? I have NEVER seen another company say anything about The Brake Man.

In fact, most of the calipers being "hyped" with big dollars in full page ads are totally inadequate in a true racing atmosphere. A good example is seen below. This is a PBR caliper, commonly used on both Corvettes and Mustangs. It is also the caliper that a competitor uses in their "performance" kits. As you can see, this is anything but performance.
Again I have never seen anyone claim the plain jane two piston PBR is a "performance" or "race" caliper. In fact I have NEVER seen an advertisement from PBR. So I'm not really sure what they are talking about. The limits of the OEM PBR's are well understood.


Keep in mind that there is a 40 horsepower brake drag savings by converting to The Brake Man!
HUH? How do they figure that? Anyone ever jack up their car and spin a front wheel by hand? Do they really think the little bit of drag is costing 40hp? Can you image the difference in gas mileage removing a 40hp brake from your car would net? I wonder why the OEM's haven't done this yet? I would like more explanation on this.

I can't really understand why they chose to pick on the 4th gen / C5 / C6 / Mustang STOCK caliper. Those front only kits are $2400. They better perform better. Why don't they compare their stuff to Wilwood FSL, W6A, Brembo GT, CTS-V, PBR Z06, etc... ?

Their stuff may be the best ever. But I am highly skeptical solely based on the fact they compare their stuff to 15yr old OEM stuff. I just checked the price of 2 front PBR calipers and 2 front rotors for a 2000 Corvette, total is about $250.

So lets make this a good discussion. I really don't have any doubt "The Brake Man's" kits are better than stock. But lets gets some good discussion going.

How do they compare to 2009+ CTS-V calipers? Since that is probably the best "easy" swap for a 4th gen. Cost of CTS-V front rotors and calipers is ~$1000. Figure another $500 for pads, lines, brackets.

Jay, I believe you are a dealer for the Z06 calipers as well. I understand if you would prefer not to comment, but how do you feel about the Z06 vs Brake Man calipers?

Finally, the OP is interested in a setup that will allow him to drive street, auto-x, road course without changing pads. I am just not sure if the 12/13" x 1.25" rotors on The Brake Man kits are going to get that done.

Sorry for being blunt. I just want to make sure we talk about facts, not marketing.

John

[jpgolf14]

Yeah, I talked with GMHTP about the brake issue...they said their current setup of gen 5 camaro calipers with CTS-V rotors (or C6Z rotors, can't remember) was probably their best setup, but they were going to have to swap to a 3rd Gen master cylinder because the stocker wasn't up to the challenge. I just hate to have to modify fabricate etc a bunch of stuff to retrofit. When you factor what the GM parts cost, then labor, then a new master cylinder...and not really knowing how they will perform (GMHTP has had issues with rear brake bias) do you need a proportioning valve or not...it all makes my head spin, and I'd be willing to pay a little more for the Wilwoods and call it a day...But I see what you are saying, the W6A is their premier Caliper...I wonder if that Vette kit would work on the fbody? My wheels are 18" Forgestar CF5's, and they are clearanced for big brake kits.

Brake balance will likely be an issue with any kit unless you match the total brake torque ratio front to rear to stock. One nice solution is an adjustable proportioning valve.

[The GMR]

Thanks for the links. I was looking for some real technical content though.

Here are a few other links to writings by the founder of Brake Man, Warren. He can be a little abrasive with his writings, but his content is real. There is some real life independent testing done by a Nascar Team that should be posted soon I believe. Either way, He has more then what I'm linking to, but this is all the important info on his site.

http://thebrakeman.com/articles



Honestly, I have never used the Brake Man products or the OEM PBR's. But I have to say, is that site for real?

Yes, Warren has been involved with the higest levels of racing for longer then I have been alive. He is also the gentleman who holds multiple patents that not only the brake man uses but from what I understand maybe a few other "large" manufactures. From Calipers to Rotors, Warren has the patents / results to back up his statements. So take what he says for whats it's worth.
His products have a place, but not with everyone and even I understand that.



I can't really understand why they chose to pick on the 4th gen / C5 / C6 / Mustang STOCK caliper. Those front only kits are $2400. They better perform better. Why don't they compare their stuff to Wilwood FSL, W6A, Brembo GT, CTS-V, PBR Z06, etc... ?

They have on many occasions, the results turned out to produce about 30% more clamping force from the F4 caliper then a high end AP counterpart, and that was at ambient temp (not race temp). The true strength of the Brake Man components are seen at race temperature, where the standard monobloc will loose strength while the Brake Man calipers actually increase in strength with approaching 400deg.

Their stuff may be the best ever. But I am highly skeptical solely based on the fact they compare their stuff to 15yr old OEM stuff. I just checked the price of 2 front PBR calipers and 2 front rotors for a 2000 Corvette, total is about $250.

So lets make this a good discussion. I really don't have any doubt "The Brake Man's" kits are better than stock. But lets gets some good discussion going.

How do they compare to 2009+ CTS-V calipers? Since that is probably the best "easy" swap for a 4th gen. Cost of CTS-V front rotors and calipers is ~$1000. Figure another $500 for pads, lines, brackets.

Sorry I do not have any direct hands on knowledge of the CTS-V calipers so I will not be commenting on any comparison.

Jay, I believe you are a dealer for the Z06 calipers as well. I understand if you would prefer not to comment, but how do you feel about the Z06 vs Brake Man calipers?

Great Question, but I do not classify them in the same field. The OEM Z06 calipers are a great monobloc caliper for the price, arguably the best "bang for the buck" monobloc on the market. For those that really do appreciate the corvette OEM style products I really cant suggest a better caliper other then the Brembo Ceramic packages from the ZR-1. For the "hardcore" applications I will suggest Brake Man, in fact we are working on a package for the pro-touring / road race / drag race market that will be revealed for SEMA.



Finally, the OP is interested in a setup that will allow him to drive street, auto-x, road course without changing pads. I am just not sure if the 12/13" x 1.25" rotors on The Brake Man kits are going to get that done.

Well, the rotor size really is not the issue. I honestly prefer smaller rotors for the race applications, the way I see it, larger is only more rotational mass. Now, for a pro-touring car where the style of the 14 inch rotors is unmatched, I strongly suggest going with equal size rotors front to back. The reality is that depending on how the setup is designed as a whole the overall goal of stopping the car properly will not be an issue. I personally love the look of the large 14 rotors with the PBR monobloc calipers, great performance and the style I prefer. Project BB is running a rear 12.19 by .810 rotor and the owner has reported that since we upgraded the rear end the brake issues were solved.

Sorry for being blunt. I just want to make sure we talk about facts, not marketing.

No problem, its all in good fun and this is what forums are for!

John

thanks
Jason

[jpgolf14]

Sounds good. I'm not surprised Warren knows what he is talking about. I'm just not crazy about his approach.

Regarding the clamping force. That is solely based on hydraulic advantage. In other words, how much piston area the caliper has. All the manufacturers make calipers with different sized pistons.

Example Wilwood FSL caliper. It is available in the following piston configurations.
1.88 / 1.75
1.75 / 1.75
1.62 / 1.62
1.38 / 1.38
1.25 / 1.25
1.12 / 1.12

It is up to the buyer to make sure their system is matched. The problem with big piston area is that is also increases the pedal travel. So it all depends on the whole system and driver preference. Do you want you brakes to be: high effort/short pedal (ie small caliper pistons) or low effort/long pedal (ie large caliper pistons)? The answer is typically somewhere in the middle. That is the beauty of large diameter rotors. You get better brake torque without the downside of the longer pedal. Basically free brake gain. Of course the downside is more rotational and sprung weight. Of course another upside is a larger rotor has more thermal mass, keeping the temperature of the whole system down. This will help keep "street" pads in their temperature range.

I agree, in a race car, run the smallest rotors you can get away with. With the proper pad, run the brakes at 1000+ degrees.

John

[pharmd]

So that still leaves me undecided...Looks like to me the WA6R Wilwood Caliper with the 14" rotor would be probably the best setup (from a compromise of asthetics and Performance). Problem is, that is a Vette kit, not Fbody...Could it be retrofit to the Camaro? Otherwise the best Wilwood has to offer is the Billet superlite 6R caliper with the 13" caliper (the race kit). Personally, those brakeman kits may be awesome, but they don't have the "look" that I am after...it has to be a compromise between performance and looks....this isn't a purpose built racecar, this is a pro-touring style setup, that I want to take on the powertour, run Pro-touring events, and do some track days, along with drive to work occationally. I understand I am going to give up some over a pure race setup...at the same time, the car itself, is giving up some to dedicated 4th gen race cars (about 500lb to be exact). So to me the decision really probably boils down to a Wilwood Kit, or the CTS-V caliper (which rotor is the one to pair with this), or pony up and buy a more expensive aftermarket kit. I am open to anything at this point...I'm virtually about to have an aneurysm over this stuff. I got the motor decided on and being built, suspension and ancillary parts are ready to go, I even have the seats picked out...The brakes...oh, the brakes (my head hurts)!

[Jay@GMR]

Regarding the clamping force. That is solely based on hydraulic advantage. In other words, how much piston area the caliper has. All the manufacturers make calipers with different sized pistons. Not so, you must also take into account caliper body flex as a MAJOR variable....in an apple to apple comparison (piston size/area), most all competitors calipers will flex (and alot), and will lose much clamping force in comparison to the Brake Man design. So you will see....although others can offer the same piston sizes/area, they cannot offer the level of rigidity the Brake Man caliper body does.

Since you have chosen the below listed FSL (Forged SuperLite) as your comparison....have you ever actually watched one as it clamps down on a rotor? I have, and is why we recommend the Brake Man calipers as a more serious choice. Dont get me wrong, we are a Wilwood dealer as well and sell Wilwood calipers as well, but just figured we would make this recommendation to the original poster as an "option" and was not meant to get you excited. If you have chosen your path for calipers that is fine, but the OP has not.

Example Wilwood FSL caliper. It is available in the following piston configurations.
1.88 / 1.75
1.75 / 1.75
1.62 / 1.62
1.38 / 1.38
1.25 / 1.25
1.12 / 1.12


John

Thanks, Jay

[Jay@GMR]

So that still leaves me undecided...Looks like to me the WA6R Wilwood Caliper with the 14" rotor would be probably the best setup (from a compromise of asthetics and Performance). Problem is, that is a Vette kit, not Fbody...Could it be retrofit to the Camaro? Otherwise the best Wilwood has to offer is the Billet superlite 6R caliper with the 13" caliper (the race kit). Personally, those brakeman kits may be awesome, but they don't have the "look" that I am after...it has to be a compromise between performance and looks....this isn't a purpose built racecar, this is a pro-touring style setup, that I want to take on the powertour, run Pro-touring events, and do some track days, along with drive to work occationally. I understand I am going to give up some over a pure race setup...at the same time, the car itself, is giving up some to dedicated 4th gen race cars (about 500lb to be exact). So to me the decision really probably boils down to a Wilwood Kit, or the CTS-V caliper (which rotor is the one to pair with this), or pony up and buy a more expensive aftermarket kit. I am open to anything at this point...I'm virtually about to have an aneurysm over this stuff. I got the motor decided on and being built, suspension and ancillary parts are ready to go, I even have the seats picked out...The brakes...oh, the brakes (my head hurts)!

I can appreciate the "looks" as a major factor and agree the Brake Man calipers are not as SEXY as some of the others that you are considering! Well good luck on your brake decision and hope I did not offend by the recommendation.