How did GM do it

[Vicinity]

Wow, those M3's look craptastic. M3's I've seen in person look much better than that.

[twosaturns]

considering the OP thinks late '70's trans ams have great paint jobs, I'd say y'all got WAY off topic...

obviously, there is a wide variation in poeple's opinions on what makes a good paint job. howabout we just leave it at that and stop the pissing contest?

[analyte]

I know for fact that new KIA and Hyundai have better LOOKING finish than the BMW's in the pics above. It may not be as durable, but it has a lot smoother finish without looking like rocker chipguard on Toyota trucks

Ok, I've got to raise the "BS" flag on this one. How is it you can make a clearly opinionated statement as fact? So you have data to back up this statement? Anything? Maybe the cars seen in your shop? If so, what was the sample size?

So you found a few pics on the internet at "car sites" with guys like us that worship our cars while looking for flaws at the same time? Just about every car today has peel to some degree as the OEM's use it to hide defects. I'd be more concerned if true "car guys" didn't complain about the OEM finish, but they aren't the target customer when it comes down to it.

As someone in the biz, I've seen appearance data from just about every car produced. I've read a lot of the data myself. You really know a plant's finish when you're a part of building 1000+ per day so the variation works itself out of the equation. I'm sure anyone could pick out a few "cream puffs" or "oh crap's" to prove a point for any brand/model, but to state that KIA/Hyundai have a better looking appearance than BMW just because you say so is totally off base.

You clearly know your stuff when it comes to dealing with the aftermarket materials and the owners normally high expectations. But you have to understand that the OEM side is completely different and everything isn't centered around smoothness or clarity but rather volume, uniformity, and consistency.



Kerry

[elitecustombody]

Ok, I've got to raise the "BS" flag on this one. How is it you can make a clearly opinionated statement as fact? So you have data to back up this statement? Anything? Maybe the cars seen in your shop? If so, what was the sample size?

So you found a few pics on the internet at "car sites" with guys like us that worship our cars while looking for flaws at the same time? Just about every car today has peel to some degree as the OEM's use it to hide defects. I'd be more concerned if true "car guys" didn't complain about the OEM finish, but they aren't the target customer when it comes down to it.

As someone in the biz, I've seen appearance data from just about every car produced. I've read a lot of the data myself. You really know a plant's finish when you're a part of building 1000+ per day so the variation works itself out of the equation. I'm sure anyone could pick out a few "cream puffs" or "oh crap's" to prove a point for any brand/model, but to state that KIA/Hyundai have a better looking appearance than BMW just because you say so is totally off base.

You clearly know your stuff when it comes to dealing with the aftermarket materials and the owners normally high expectations. But you have to understand that the OEM side is completely different and everything isn't centered around smoothness or clarity but rather volume, uniformity, and consistency.

Kerry

I'll try to make it clearer, All 335i and 3 series BMW 08-09 that I have seen and worked on have very consistent heavy orangepeel just like shown in the pics ,and all Korean and Japanese cars that I have seen in person have much better,smoother finish.Once again, I am not stating that Asian cars have more durable finish,but they appear to have better looking finish than 3 series BMW. Surely I have not seen or ever will see every car that rolled off an assembly line, but when I see same body style car with consistent paint flaws,I have a good reason to build my opinion.I assume that 6 and 7 series do not have that problem,because one of my brothers has owned four last gen.7 series and at the moment two of my brothers own black 2008 M5's, but I can clearly see that 3 series is known for heavy orangepeel.

Is that better?

I'll also add that GTO's that were built in Australia have better fit and finish than most US built GM cars

[wmhjr]

To try and get back on topic, I'll again bring up the idea that there's a difference between not only what you GET with a great custom paint job and a factory job, but what you WANT from it.

Case in point that I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to make earlier. I constantly get ooohs and aaahhhs for the paint on my "project". While there are absolutely flaws, it is literally mirror smooth, and huge depth, pretty much glows, and looks a mile deep.

It also shows every single flaw, fingerprint, speck of dust, etc. If I take it and park it next to my 2008 MB E350, the MB will look "cleaner" and "nicer" even if it hasn't been cleaned for 3 weeks and has been driven 2500 miles - but the Pontiac was dusted 2 days ago. The paint on the Pontiac needs to be kept immaculate or it just starts to look, well, dirty and messy. I know it's a combination of factors, but the total lack of any orange peel, surface imperfections, etc just REALLY create contrast with anything. And pics? Every darned thing reflects.

Bottom line is that I think manufacturers probably consider this stuff when deciding what kind of finish they really want. I don't think it's just a "let's save some money" kind of thing. I think there is more research and science behind this than people - INCLUDING guys who paint custom cars for a living - realize. People building a ground up custom build, or a custom show car, or even a "nice" driver have very very different goals and objectives in mind. My Pontiac has never been and will never be touched with a hose to wash it. My daily drive is lucky to see a hose once a month. And with a daily commute of 80 miles just for work alone, year round, there is some wear and tear.

To be really honest, haven't we seen threads on this forum where people building cars mention how they regret the "fancy" paint jobs? You think auto manufacturers that are scrutinized for quality after 100k miles - not just after 12 months - don't consider this? Just a thought. Remember, some of the same brands that are getting thrashed here because their paint isn't as "smooth" as some people like have hand rubbed wood interior components from the factory. Not plastic. Not veneer. Hand rubbed, polished, walnut or burlwood. It's just my opinion but based on what I see and what I experience, I think there's a very real possibility that some of these companies know what they're doing - and it's not an accident.

[elitecustombody]

I am totally aware that custom slick paint jobs will show every faint scuff,dirt spec,finger print,e.t.c. I never said it's tougher or more forgiving than OEM paint with orangepeel.

But for people who still want a slick glass-like finish, there is special developed clear with NANO technology ,which contains nano-sized ceramic particles.Most paint brands carry it.Ceramiclear by PPG, SupraShield by DoPont,iGloss by BASF to name a few .For someone that wants something even better,Nanomyte™ Mend by NEI Corp. makes self-healing clearcoat.

BTW, most MB models since 04 can be ordered with scratch resistant clearcoat.

[wmhjr]

We're talking FACTORY vs CUSTOM. Infinity was one of the first factory cars (high production at least) which offered "self mending" paint back in '08 or earlier. I honestly haven't noticed it being any different in real life, but who knows.

The point is whether people WANT that "slick" finish. Whether perhaps manufacturers are trying to deliver a product that satisfies the core of their customer base and prospective customers. Again, that maybe it's an intentional decision to not create that finish. As I said, I for one am supremely glad that my "non-custom" vehicles do not have that ultra slick finish. Now, that doesn't mean I want more orange peel than a box of tangerines either.

BTW, MB does NOT offer a "scratch resistant clear coating" that you can order that I am aware of. At least not on the C, E or S Class. Ordering a MB (which I have personally done and which you can do online) is a very simple process. MB actually gives buyers very few individual choices in "options". There are 2 major option packages in most of their vehicles. Premium 1 or Premium 2. There are literally a handful of other separate options available. Maybe back in the Daimler Chrysler days there was such an option for a while, but it has not existed for at least the above classes since 2007. All available factory options are available at MBUSA.com and listed. Perhaps you can have dealer applied coatings (much like any other manufacturer in the US offers such options when you buy - but they are not MB options).

[analyte]

MB has been using "scratch resistant" for several years, and it was there standard clearcoat rather than an option.

One other thing, the self healing mechanism is only good for about 3 years, and it only works with fine scratches.

Kerry

[elitecustombody]

Probably, so on MB clear.I tell you,it's some tough *****.It does not want to buff out as easy with same coupound as conventional clear,so it requires special compound. The paint on Infiniti cars that I worked on seem to have a weird resistance to buffing like it's rubber and compound smudges up.

[wmhjr]

MB has been using "scratch resistant" for several years, and it was there standard clearcoat rather than an option.

That makes sense. There is nothing marketed as "scratch resistant" at MB but whatever they use holds up extremely well. I've only owned 2000-2008 year MBs but have friends with both older and newer. If they're even just adequately cared for, they really age gracefully. I only knew that there was no "option" for special paint. Pick your color - that's it

[elitecustombody]

That makes sense. There is nothing marketed as "scratch resistant" at MB but whatever they use holds up extremely well. I've only owned 2000-2008 year MBs but have friends with both older and newer. If they're even just adequately cared for, they really age gracefully. I only knew that there was no "option" for special paint. Pick your color - that's it

The reason I was under impression that scratch resistant clear was an option, is because there was a big article years ago in Body Shop Business magazine,where MB was showing test results with photos comparing conventional clear and scratch resistant clear after some 50 or 100 runs through car wash . It also mentioned that it will be an option on E, and higher end models .I guess they just went ahead and made it standard .This was before not many knew what NANO is.

[wmhjr]

No problem. Like I said, I'm thoroughly impressed and always have been with both the quality and the durability of the MB finishes. Frankly, I never had any complaints about BMWs either, but I do prefer the look of the MB. Let's face it, they're cars, built out of sheet metal. Anything can be damaged or rust. But, I've never owned a vehicle that has held up as well - in particular cosmetically - as my MBs. Mechanically the MBs and the BMWs have been equally superb for me. For interiors, both seem to hold up extremely well but for exteriors, the MBs have been without peer IMHO. These cars have been daily drivers for me and salty, rough, snow and ice covered and pothole ridden roads and the finish seems to just glow after a hose, soapy water wash and a wax. Nothing else. Just incredible.

[Skip Fix]

My 78 black TA factory paint had little orange peel BUT between the T tops and over one quarter panel after 1 year of using only low abrasive waxes you could see the lighter colored primer-maybe a 1-2 coats of color.

2 coats single stage black,3 coats clear Glasurit polyurethane and it still looks as good as when it was laid on in 1988. We also got the doors and other panels lined up better. Other than the chips from road race slicks kicking up gravel autocrossing and drag strip burnouts pretty good shape.

Seems like many of the Mercedes and BMWs my paint guy showed me(why we used Glasurit) from the factory had the top surfaces color sanded flat but they left the orange peel on the sides.