How did GM do it

[go-fish]

I keep forgetting to get a pic of my black truck! Here is a pic of a professional black paint job--look at the level of detail in the reflection:


You don't get that clear as glass type of a reflection on a "factory" paint job.

Beautiful paint, AIF. Got one from a distance?

[absintheisfun]

Not mine (I wish!) Taken from:

Rod Keeling's Build

I was just "borrowing" the pic to show the flawless beauty of an aftermarket professional paint job.

[elitecustombody]

Seems like OP got his answer. For a true glass-like finish it can take upto a month of colorsanding and buffing for a decent size car. I also agree on BMW's having the worst texture,I wouldn't even call it orangepeel, more like chip guard coating, lol. I just can't believe people pay $70k+ for these cars, when KIA and Hyundai have better fnish than $90k Mercedes.

[absintheisfun]

okay, I finally got my car washed and got a couple of comparison shots.

Factory Black (note the orange peel in the reflection):



Professional black:

[nekkidhillbilly]

also most new cars are dipped not sprayed i know toyota is

[wmhjr]

Seems like OP got his answer. For a true glass-like finish it can take upto a month of colorsanding and buffing for a decent size car. I also agree on BMW's having the worst texture,I wouldn't even call it orangepeel, more like chip guard coating, lol. I just can't believe people pay $70k+ for these cars, when KIA and Hyundai have better fnish than $90k Mercedes.

I guess it varies, but I'd be very careful about making a statement that KIA and Hyundai have better finishes than a MB. First of all, the overwhelming majority if MBs aren't anywhere even close to $90K. Second, my experience about the paint quality certainly differs from yours. As do the best body and paint shops around here differ from yours. That being said, most people don't buy a car based on how much orange peel is in the paint.

I sold a '00 MB 2 yrs ago. Paint still looked absolutely perfect. Matter of fact, it looked better than any KIA or Hyndai sitting on the showroom floor. Just saying.

[analyte]

also most new cars are dipped not sprayed i know toyota is

In the context of this conversation/thread, this statement is totally false. The only dipping process in OEM paintshops are phosphate/ecoat tanks. Absolutely no one topcoats cars in a dip tank. Going back 6-8 years ago, there was a process that involved having another dip stage after ecoat for the primer though only one tank was installed with not very much success.

BMW has played with powder clear over the last several years which gave an extremely smooth surface, but they've gave it up and are now building booths around the new compact process. Generally speaking, BMW and MB usually have far superior paint jobs than the US and Asia OEM's due to their desire for higher quality pigments/resins, along with the willingness to pay for them.

As everyone knows, any production process will have some variation to it. Therefore, some days are better than others and then there are days that are worse than others. No one should proclaim any OEM paint job better than anyone else's unless they've seen a sample size large enough to justify any claim.

[nekkidhillbilly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtat55u4H6U

they dip apparently primer stage think we are talking about the same thing but anyhow

[analyte]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtat55u4H6U

they dip apparently primer stage think we are talking about the same thing but anyhow

In the video you linked, they call it a primer but the vehicle is actually being dipped into what's called an electrocoat tank. It provides the corrosion protection, and a coat of sprayable primer is applied after the bake followed by topcoat.

Kerry

[elitecustombody]

I guess it varies, but I'd be very careful about making a statement that KIA and Hyundai have better finishes than a MB. First of all, the overwhelming majority if MBs aren't anywhere even close to $90K. Second, my experience about the paint quality certainly differs from yours. As do the best body and paint shops around here differ from yours. That being said, most people don't buy a car based on how much orange peel is in the paint.

I sold a '00 MB 2 yrs ago. Paint still looked absolutely perfect. Matter of fact, it looked better than any KIA or Hyndai sitting on the showroom floor. Just saying.

I'm not going to argue with you, but will say that I have seen a fair share of chip guard finish on customer's new BMWs ,just look few posts above for proof of the "high quality" finish. I have also owned 01 S430 ,car was year old with 13k miles on the clock and factory paint coming off in chunks on the bottom corners of the doors,trust me, I've been in autobody & paint for well over 20 years,this is what I do,so you can't fool me. And the last time I checked,S class starts at $91k and goes well over 200k, SL65 roadster is 200k,and just about any supercharged or twin turboed does not have a price sticker of cheap C class .

I have also seen plenty of Korean cars and can honestly say that the actual finish was smoother than MB and obviously much better than BMW finish.I'm not saying it's tougher or will last longer than European car's finish, but the actual finish was smoother. And that's what this thread is about.

[elitecustombody]

In the context of this conversation/thread, this statement is totally false. The only dipping process in OEM paintshops are phosphate/ecoat tanks. Absolutely no one topcoats cars in a dip tank..

I totally agree

. Generally speaking, BMW and MB usually have far superior paint jobs than the US and Asia OEM's due to their desire for higher quality pigments/resins, along with the willingness to pay for them.
.

I disagree.Look few posts above for a photo of BMW factory texture coating,lol. I don't know how they pass quality control inspection with that garbage.

Lexus have very nice finish,take a look at their black or dark colored LS460.

[wmhjr]

I'm not going to argue with you, but will say that I have seen a fair share of chip guard finish on customer's new BMWs ,just look few posts above for proof of the "high quality" finish. I have also owned 01 S430 ,car was year old with 13k miles on the clock and factory paint coming off in chunks on the bottom corners of the doors,trust me, I've been in autobody & paint for well over 20 years,this is what I do,so you can't fool me. And the last time I checked,S class starts at $91k and goes well over 200k, SL65 roadster is 200k,and just about any supercharged or twin turboed does not have a price sticker of cheap C class .

I have also seen plenty of Korean cars and can honestly say that the actual finish was smoother than MB and obviously much better than BMW finish.I'm not saying it's tougher or will last longer than European car's finish, but the actual finish was smoother. And that's what this thread is about.

Well, for somebody not wanting to argue....

Not to be difficult, but I'm not going to judge the quality of a vehicle brand by a few pics in a few posts on a single site. We all have examples and experiences that shape our opinions. Yours is cleary based on your experience, which just happens to not match a lot of other peoples. Frankly, I find the finish quality of the Kias and Hyundais to be "OK" when new, but also not holding up over time. I can provide pics of that same '00 CLK320 TODAY that still has a mirror like shine. The car looks better today than a one year old Tuscon I was parked next to yesterday. That MB is now approaching 200k miles. The guy who bought it from me still loves it.

For every S class, more than 10 C or E classes are sold. So, let's add some non-debatable facts here, shall we?

In 2010, MB sold 216K cars in the US - which is an 18% growth just for info. Of that, here are the actual public sales numbers which anybody can review anytime they want. No opinion. Just fact...

At a minimum, the following models are certainly in that group of far less than $90K that you keep talking about.

C = 27% of all sales.
E = 28% of all sales
M = 14% of all sales
GL = 9% of all sales
GLK = 9% of all sales

So, of ALL cars sold in the US by MB in 2010, a total of 88% sold fall FAR below that number you threw around. You just painted a picture of a brand based on a generalization that only applies to 12% of their lineup. Not a great logical argument, if I say so myself. Actually, let me correct that. 4% of those sales figures are the Sprinter utility truck which is not a passenger car. So, you made a generalization based on 8% of their lineup AT BEST. Just an example of how assumptions and allegations can get you in trouble.

My own opinion is that your experience is clouded but that's my opinion. I simply totally disagree completely and without reservation that the Kia or Hyundai paint jobs are "obviously much better" than the BMW or "smoother" than the MB. I could not possibly disagree with you more. However, I expect that as you have already in other posts indicated your disdain for those brands. No problem - your right to your own opinion. I would simply ask that you be more cautions about portraying your opinions as facts and instead make sure you call it what it is. My '08 E350 has an excellent paint job on it. I compare it to my other vehicles (a 2009 Chevy, a 2008 Honda, a 2001 Ford) and it is clearly superior IMHO - and it's darned tough. But that's just my opinion.

[elitecustombody]

Well, for somebody not wanting to argue....

Not to be difficult, but I'm not going to judge the quality of a vehicle brand by a few pics in a few posts on a single site. We all have examples and experiences that shape our opinions. Yours is cleary based on your experience, which just happens to not match a lot of other peoples. Frankly, I find the finish quality of the Kias and Hyundais to be "OK" when new, but also not holding up over time. I can provide pics of that same '00 CLK320 TODAY that still has a mirror like shine. The car looks better today than a one year old Tuscon I was parked next to yesterday. That MB is now approaching 200k miles. The guy who bought it from me still loves it.

For every S class, more than 10 C or E classes are sold. So, let's add some non-debatable facts here, shall we?

In 2010, MB sold 216K cars in the US - which is an 18% growth just for info. Of that, here are the actual public sales numbers which anybody can review anytime they want. No opinion. Just fact...

At a minimum, the following models are certainly in that group of far less than $90K that you keep talking about.

C = 27% of all sales.
E = 28% of all sales
M = 14% of all sales
GL = 9% of all sales
GLK = 9% of all sales

So, of ALL cars sold in the US by MB in 2010, a total of 88% sold fall FAR below that number you threw around. You just painted a picture of a brand based on a generalization that only applies to 12% of their lineup. Not a great logical argument, if I say so myself. Actually, let me correct that. 4% of those sales figures are the Sprinter utility truck which is not a passenger car. So, you made a generalization based on 8% of their lineup AT BEST. Just an example of how assumptions and allegations can get you in trouble.

My own opinion is that your experience is clouded but that's my opinion. I simply totally disagree completely and without reservation that the Kia or Hyundai paint jobs are "obviously much better" than the BMW or "smoother" than the MB. I could not possibly disagree with you more. However, I expect that as you have already in other posts indicated your disdain for those brands. No problem - your right to your own opinion. I would simply ask that you be more cautions about portraying your opinions as facts and instead make sure you call it what it is. My '08 E350 has an excellent paint job on it. I compare it to my other vehicles (a 2009 Chevy, a 2008 Honda, a 2001 Ford) and it is clearly superior IMHO - and it's darned tough. But that's just my opinion.

Dude,just because you owned 2 MB's, your opinion ,well ,is your opinion. I stated my own experience,not something I read somewhere. I never worked on C or M class,I have worked on and owned S class,worked on regular CLS and AMG ,as well as SL and E class,I do remember the paint on black S550 I put full Lorinser body kit on,it had tough paint,but this thread was started not about how durable the paint is, but how slick it is.IMO MB paint finish is no better than Korean car's paint as far as appearance goes,it is more durable, no doubt.

As for BMW finish, don't take my word for it or absintheisfun's, take a drive to your local BMW stealership and take a look for yourself, recently I had two 09 335i tt coupes at the shop, one was t-boned and another took serious blasting from glass falling off the truck ,requiring everything but the trunk and rear bumper repainted.Also had one 3 series cabrio for some spot repair. I was disgusted at the quality of the finish on all of these cars. I am not lying, it literally looked like chipguard texture that you see sometimes on lower half of the rockers on some cars. Argue all you want about your two MB's,I've seen and worked on enough brand new cars that are still in plastic,cars that are fresh off the boat to come up with my "clouded" opinion or experience.

[Vicinity]

Dude,just because you owned 2 MB's, your opinion ,well ,is your opinion. I stated my own experience,not something I read somewhere. I never worked on C or M class,I have worked on and owned S class,worked on regular CLS and AMG ,as well as SL and E class,I do remember the paint on black S550 I put full Lorinser body kit on,it had tough paint,but this thread was started not about how durable the paint is, but how slick it is.IMO MB paint finish is no better than Korean car's paint as far as appearance goes,it is more durable, no doubt.

As for BMW finish, don't take my word for it or absintheisfun's, take a drive to your local BMW stealership and take a look for yourself, recently I had two 09 335i tt coupes at the shop, one was t-boned and another took serious blasting from glass falling off the truck ,requiring everything but the trunk and rear bumper repainted.Also had one 3 series cabrio for some spot repair. I was disgusted at the quality of the finish on all of these cars. I am not lying, it literally looked like chipguard texture that you see sometimes on lower half of the rockers on some cars. Argue all you want about your two MB's,I've seen and worked on enough brand new cars that are still in plastic,cars that are fresh off the boat to come up with my "clouded" opinion or experience.

My Mom's MB has no Orange Peel. My friends M3 has no orange peel. My Dad's Scion has no orange peel.

My stepdad's Camaro is orange peeled like a mofo.

[wmhjr]

Dude,just because you owned 2 MB's, your opinion ,well ,is your opinion. I stated my own experience,not something I read somewhere. I never worked on C or M class,I have worked on and owned S class,worked on regular CLS and AMG ,as well as SL and E class,I do remember the paint on black S550 I put full Lorinser body kit on,it had tough paint,but this thread was started not about how durable the paint is, but how slick it is.IMO MB paint finish is no better than Korean car's paint as far as appearance goes,it is more durable, no doubt.

As for BMW finish, don't take my word for it or absintheisfun's, take a drive to your local BMW stealership and take a look for yourself, recently I had two 09 335i tt coupes at the shop, one was t-boned and another took serious blasting from glass falling off the truck ,requiring everything but the trunk and rear bumper repainted.Also had one 3 series cabrio for some spot repair. I was disgusted at the quality of the finish on all of these cars. I am not lying, it literally looked like chipguard texture that you see sometimes on lower half of the rockers on some cars. Argue all you want about your two MB's,I've seen and worked on enough brand new cars that are still in plastic,cars that are fresh off the boat to come up with my "clouded" opinion or experience.

That's fine - I just don't agree. BTW I've owned more than 2 MBs and BMWs and have tons of friends who own them - and who track them as much or more than pretty much anybody on this site tracks their cars. It's still just opinion.

I pointed out that your references to "$70K+" and "$90K" and waving away the far less expensive cars was flawed. Facts are fact. At a minimum, you "seemed" to have tried to insinuate that "most" MBs were in that high price category, when the facts pretty soundly beat the heck out of your claims. You were WAY WAY WAY off. Not even remotely correct. I personally am very very familiar with the '10 and '11 BMWs and simply don't agree with you. Obviously, based on sales figures, a lot of other people also don't agree. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. That includes you and me. We don't have to agree.

One thing that may be happening here is the idea of what a "good paint job" is. The paint job on my Pontiac is incredibly "slick". ISCA results would back up that statement. I just finished a magazine photo shoot of it (spent a total of 2 days and 12 hours doing the shoot for the article and the cover) and it was a very difficult shoot because everything reflects in it, so getting good mag shots took way longer than usual. The editor and photographer traveled in on a Monday but were not able to get it done before total dark, so they came back on Thursday for another 6 hours. Honestly, I don't want that kind of finish on my daily driver. It shows absolutely EVERY darned speck of dust, lint, every single scratch, every fingerprint. Do I want that on the car I drive 80 miles a day in? Through rain, snow, sleet? Heck no! "Slick" is not necessarily "better". There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. You just might want to consider that the degree of mirror smooth shine is a deliberate and intentional decision NOT based on "lesser quality" but perhaps based on other quality related factors.

[elitecustombody]

That's fine - I just don't agree. BTW I've owned more than 2 MBs and BMWs and have tons of friends who own them - and who track them as much or more than pretty much anybody on this site tracks their cars. It's still just opinion.

I pointed out that your references to "$70K+" and "$90K" and waving away the far less expensive cars was flawed. Facts are fact. At a minimum, you "seemed" to have tried to insinuate that "most" MBs were in that high price category, when the facts pretty soundly beat the heck out of your claims. You were WAY WAY WAY off. Not even remotely correct. I personally am very very familiar with the '10 and '11 BMWs and simply don't agree with you. Obviously, based on sales figures, a lot of other people also don't agree. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. That includes you and me. We don't have to agree.

One thing that may be happening here is the idea of what a "good paint job" is. The paint job on my Pontiac is incredibly "slick". ISCA results would back up that statement. I just finished a magazine photo shoot of it (spent a total of 2 days and 12 hours doing the shoot for the article and the cover) and it was a very difficult shoot because everything reflects in it, so getting good mag shots took way longer than usual. The editor and photographer traveled in on a Monday but were not able to get it done before total dark, so they came back on Thursday for another 6 hours. Honestly, I don't want that kind of finish on my daily driver. It shows absolutely EVERY darned speck of dust, lint, every single scratch, every fingerprint. Do I want that on the car I drive 80 miles a day in? Through rain, snow, sleet? Heck no! "Slick" is not necessarily "better". There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. You just might want to consider that the degree of mirror smooth shine is a deliberate and intentional decision NOT based on "lesser quality" but perhaps based on other quality related factors.

Seems like you're missing the point, I stated that on the $70-90k cars that I worked on or had owned the finish was not that great and in most cases appeared worse than some Asian cars.

You can keep your "Slick" is not necessarily "better" or "too much of a good thing" . There are plenty of people that drive their exotic cars daily. Wonder what was the reason most of them have even door jambs cut and buffed.

This thread was made to find out why is it that paint shops take 100 or more hours to have a nice paint job when automakers can pop them out in minutes. This bickering does nothing to help OP ,you or me .I'm done here.

[wmhjr]

Seems like you're missing the point, I stated that on the $70-90k cars that I worked on or had owned the finish was not that great and in most cases appeared worse than some Asian cars.

You can keep your "Slick" is not necessarily "better" or "too much of a good thing" . There are plenty of people that drive their exotic cars daily. Wonder what was the reason most of them have even door jambs cut and buffed.

This thread was made to find out why is it that paint shops take 100 or more hours to have a nice paint job when automakers can pop them out in minutes. This bickering does nothing to help OP ,you or me .I'm done here.

There is the crux of the issue. Your preference is apparently as "slick as possible". That's great but not everyone wants that. Having friends who own "exotic cars" (Ferrari 512BB, TestaRossa, F430, and a Porsche Carrera-GT as examples) I can attest that in particular the Ferraris are FAR from "slick". I suppose they aren't exotic. But in the words of a famous guy, "there you go again". So "most of them even have door jambs cut and buffed", huh? Methinks you're pretty free with making up stuff. Of the cars I've just mentioned, not a single one has had this done. Is it done by some people that you seem to have knowledge of? Perhaps. By "Most"? Don't think so. Not even close. Uh, you're gonna have to start watching those generalizations. You did NOT say that "on the x cars I worked on" - you were clearly saying somethign else. Problem is facts get in the way.

This is not bickering. To your point (which my post specifically addressed) automakers may have specific reasons for the finish that they produce. There may be a certain amount of what we're calling "orange peel" (but in a much smaller degree) that they WANT to have. There are lots of factors. I know you hate BMWs and MBs - your other posts have been very clear on that. Let's just leave it that you hate them and have an opinion which other people may or may not agree with. I'd leave the categorization of "most" or "all" or the price tags alone - they're getting you in trouble.

[elitecustombody]

There is the crux of the issue. Your preference is apparently as "slick as possible". That's great but not everyone wants that. Having friends who own "exotic cars" (Ferrari 512BB, TestaRossa, F430, and a Porsche Carrera-GT as examples) I can attest that in particular the Ferraris are FAR from "slick". I suppose they aren't exotic. But in the words of a famous guy, "there you go again". So "most of them even have door jambs cut and buffed", huh? Methinks you're pretty free with making up stuff. Of the cars I've just mentioned, not a single one has had this done. Is it done by some people that you seem to have knowledge of? Perhaps. By "Most"? Don't think so. Not even close. Uh, you're gonna have to start watching those generalizations. You did NOT say that "on the x cars I worked on" - you were clearly saying somethign else. Problem is facts get in the way.

This is not bickering. To your point (which my post specifically addressed) automakers may have specific reasons for the finish that they produce. There may be a certain amount of what we're calling "orange peel" (but in a much smaller degree) that they WANT to have. There are lots of factors. I know you hate BMWs and MBs - your other posts have been very clear on that. Let's just leave it that you hate them and have an opinion which other people may or may not agree with. I'd leave the categorization of "most" or "all" or the price tags alone - they're getting you in trouble.

It appears you have an axe to grind ,I don't know what your problem is, but if you have any experience in automotive refinishing and actually know the process ,I'd stop. Most high end cars get colorsanded and buffed,even if you can't see it,this process may not remove all orangepeel or texture, but it's done to eliminate any tiny flaws and die-back,leaving the finish with uniform finish surface with deep gloss that may have small amount of texture,every car maker has their own standards,so texture or gloss level may differ.

If you have some personal agenda,let me know,so I can put you on my ignore list.I'm done with this thread and you.

[wmhjr]

It appears you have an axe to grind ,I don't know what your problem is, but if you have any experience in automotive refinishing and actually know the process ,I'd stop. Most high end cars get colorsanded and buffed,even if you can't see it,this process may not remove all orangepeel or texture, but it's done to eliminate any tiny flaws and die-back,leaving the finish with uniform finish surface with deep gloss that may have small amount of texture,every car maker has their own standards,so texture or gloss level may differ.

If you have some personal agenda,let me know,so I can put you on my ignore list.I'm done with this thread and you.

Dude, we're saying some of the same things. I'm just calling out the generalizations and assumptions you seem to throw around. I'm very VERY familiar with color sanding, wet sanding, cutting, and buffing. You are probably more skilled and experienced than I in terms of hours spent. Doesn't mean I'm clueless either. I need no education on high end painting. I just personally (opinion) don't care for people making massive generalizations like how owners of "most exotics" have door jambs cut and buffed - insinuating that owners take a finished car and then have further work done because they all (or most) want a more "slick" finish. This, to make a point that my position that there can be a "too slick" finish for production cars is apparently in your opinion ridiculous. If I misunderstood what you're trying to say my apologies. My other comments were just to show that while you clearly detest BMWs and MBs and have taken every opportunity to slam them, there are others - and facts - which do not necessarily support your opinion. Just like there are some that don't support mine.

If you really expected to make statements that KIAs and Hyundais have better finishes than MB or BMW and NOT take some heat, well..... I think it's a little presumptuous to believe that even somebody in the auto painting business could make such sweeping generalizations and not get taken to task. I think if you read through your posts without emotion and try to view them from a different perspective you might understand the point. I mean no disrespect but if you'd prefer to use "ignore" it's at your fingertips.

[elitecustombody]

Dude, we're saying some of the same things. I'm just calling out the generalizations and assumptions you seem to throw around. I'm very VERY familiar with color sanding, wet sanding, cutting, and buffing. You are probably more skilled and experienced than I in terms of hours spent. Doesn't mean I'm clueless either. I need no education on high end painting. I just personally (opinion) don't care for people making massive generalizations like how owners of "most exotics" have door jambs cut and buffed - insinuating that owners take a finished car and then have further work done because they all (or most) want a more "slick" finish. This, to make a point that my position that there can be a "too slick" finish for production cars is apparently in your opinion ridiculous. If I misunderstood what you're trying to say my apologies. My other comments were just to show that while you clearly detest BMWs and MBs and have taken every opportunity to slam them, there are others - and facts - which do not necessarily support your opinion. Just like there are some that don't support mine.

If you really expected to make statements that KIAs and Hyundais have better finishes than MB or BMW and NOT take some heat, well..... I think it's a little presumptuous to believe that even somebody in the auto painting business could make such sweeping generalizations and not get taken to task. I think if you read through your posts without emotion and try to view them from a different perspective you might understand the point. I mean no disrespect but if you'd prefer to use "ignore" it's at your fingertips.

I'll try one last time. I was not insinuating that owners take their cars and have door jambs buffed, sanding and buffing is done prior to delivery of their new car by the maker at the factory,not some detail shop or body shop. I do not slam BMW or MB every opportunity,but I will add my .02c if the discussion is about paint quality.

Here are few links where BMW owners slam the sh!tty finish,you can also Google "BMW orangepeel" and see what comes up

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97930
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e90...m3-dealer.html
http://mobile.pistonheads.com/co/uk/...bishment&mid=0
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc.../t-389520.html
http://www.autopia.org/forum/click-b...-bmw-335i.html
http://www.autocar.co.uk/forums/t/710.aspx
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ge+peel&page=3
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=215527


And few pics if you're lazy to click or stop by local stealership







I know for fact that new KIA and Hyundai have better LOOKING finish than the BMW's in the pics above. It may not be as durable, but it has a lot smoother finish without looking like rocker chipguard on Toyota trucks