Tattoos

[Damn True]

This is my number one beef with the vast majority of american culture. The fact that you would look at a person with visible tattoos or read a thread I wrote here on a board, and automatically form an opinion and bias as you put it against them is arrogant and illogical to the extreme. It's also judgmental.

You don't know me from Jesus Christ anymore than you know a random person that walks up to you in a job interview, but you're willing to make all kinds of perceptions and judgments based on one interview or conversation? You don't have any idea what's going on in my head, why I reason things the way I do, etc. etc.

You are missing the point. The judgment isn't against you as a person or even against your ability to perform the tactical elements of the job you are applying for. The judgment is against your lack of preparedness for an interview by not dressing appropriately for it, if not your lack of judgment in your disregard for the corporate culture of the organization you seek to join. If you were otherwise appropriately dressed but you had exposed tattoos the judgment would be against your ability, by virtue of your appearance to represent the company appropriately. In some circumstances it wouldn't be an issue. In most corporate environments it is, which is why Nick, myself and others with tattoos have them only in places that can be covered when in a professional standard of dress.

Clothes don't make you successful. Working hard, presenting the right attitude, and having the right education and skills for your job level make you successful.
Mathius

None of which matters if your appearance is not in keeping with the corporate culture, standards & values of the organization. If you aren't able or willing to represent the company in the manner they've have decided upon you'll likely be disappointed in the outcome of your candidacy.

[mellowyellowCJ7]

You don't know me from Jesus Christ anymore than you know a random person that walks up to you in a job interview, but you're willing to make all kinds of perceptions and judgments based on one interview or conversation? You don't have any idea what's going on in my head, why I reason things the way I do, etc. etc.

The interviewer is paid to make judgments based on that interview and owes the interviewee nothing. The interviewee has one shot at communicating what is going on in his or her head and what value they bring to the company.

That's why we USED to have multiple interviews in this country, but we of course like everything else determined them to cost too much. It's also a grand reason why we have such a large job turnover rate in this country, because people decide to form an opinion of someone based on a 15 min interview and then if they don't fit your perception of what you think they're capable of, they're out the door.

Get that engineering degree and your interview process will change a great deal. The last interview process I entered into involved was on the order of 8 hours.

Getting back to your original post, you said that you’re exploring what doors will open with more education? Many
Then you essentially asked what doors will close if you get tattoos on your arm and hands? A few
If you go into an interview and give any hint that you have a chip on your shoulder of any sort, but particulary about unfair characterization/stereotypes/profiling, how many doors will close? Nearly all

I'm not saying you have a chip on your shoulder, because as you said, I don't know you outside of this thread, but you using a lot of lauguage and buzz words that screem, the world doesn't like who I want to be and that's not fair, so I really hope this is a case of internet communication breakdown.

[parsonsj]

That's why we USED to have multiple interviews in this country, but we of course like everything else determined them to cost too much. It's also a grand reason why we have such a large job turnover rate in this country, because people decide to form an opinion of someone based on a 15 min interview and then if they don't fit your perception of what you think they're capable of, they're out the door.

Got any evidence for such a claim?

[Damn True]

Get that engineering degree and your interview process will change a great deal. The last interview process I entered into involved was on the order of 8 hours.

Ain't that the truth? The last time I was looking for a job I spent no less than 8hrs interviewing with each corporation I was seriously pursuing. My current position involved 2hrs with an HR rep, 2hrs with the CEO, 1hr with the VP of sales, 2hrs with the VP of sales ops, an hour each with 3 would be peers and 1hr with the CEO AGAIN.

Not sure where Mathius got the idea about 15min interviews. I've never had one that brief as an applicant for a position I was seriously pursuing.

[6'9"Witha69]

Most of my interviews are scheduled for an hour. All of them run far past their allotted time. I ask people the same question multiple ways at various times. I analyze how they think. How they come to a decision. How comfortable they are. I also look at lots of non verbal communication. Positioning, movement, eye contact, fidgeting, etc. I got trained how to interview people. I also ensure that additional interviews by my peers, my boss and my various business partners are conducted as appropriate based on the level of position for which I am hiring.

Perhaps $8/hr mcDonalds interviews are 15 minutes long, but if I am hiring for a titled position, or someone who will have a lot of interaction with titled people, that person is either here for 6-8 hours, or will spend an equivalent time over 2-3 visits.

[Damn True]

Mathius,

This isn't going anywhere so I'll depart the discussion after this; You expressed a desire to work toward a career in architecture. I will tell you that for the most part you will find that arena to be rather conservative and by virtue of that I would strongly recommend you avoid tattoos that would be exposed in at a minimum a "business casual" standard of dress. You are unlikely to be around co-workers or clients in anything short of slacks and a golf shirt, or perhaps shorts and a golf shirt if you are hosting or invited to a golf outing with a client. I would recommend you consider "off-limits" any exposed skin while dressed in the manner previously described.

You are of course perfectly within your right to ignore the above but do so with the understanding that you absolutely will be creating an uphill battle for yourself that you will face on a daily basis and you will be closing a large number of opportunities as a result.

[CarlC]

The multiple interview process is alive and well. A second interview may only happen if the first impression is good. That first impression is directly proportional to how you look, act, and speak. If you like to make waves, buck the system, and in general argue with everyone, then that second interview is going to go to someone else in most cases.

Example. If a job candidate shows up for an interview with me and they are wearing ear rings, lip rings, nose rings, necklaces, etc., they are immediately out of the running. Want to guess why? It has everything to do with understanding the job, respecting the customer, and learning about what the job requires. If a candidate is willing to disregard these fundamentals, what else are they willing to disregard? That goes right back to "Want to guess why?"

If you don't agree with Corporate policy then start your own business and hire as you see fit. That's capitalism.

Oh, and several of the guys that work for me are tatt'ed, but they cannot be seen in normal dress. That goes for many others that I work with.

[Mathius]

Ain't that the truth? The last time I was looking for a job I spent no less than 8hrs interviewing with each corporation I was seriously pursuing. My current position involved 2hrs with an HR rep, 2hrs with the CEO, 1hr with the VP of sales, 2hrs with the VP of sales ops, an hour each with 3 would be peers and 1hr with the CEO AGAIN.

Not sure where Mathius got the idea about 15min interviews. I've never had one that brief as an applicant for a position I was seriously pursuing.

I don't know, maybe because I get the impression you've never held a "normal" job where you weren't required to have a college education or where you never considered it a career. Maybe back when you were in h.s. Or maybe you think that was your time in the military? I think I remember you saying or at least implying that you served.

If you've never held a job that you've considered disposable that you were just doing because you needed the pay check, then I guess you couldn't really relate. I admit I haven't applied for a ton of jobs in my lifetime. I consider that a good thing, because it shows I'm a person who perseveres and has the ability to hold onto a job. But of the 3 or 4 jobs I have interviewed for, while there were usually multiple interviews, I don't remember any of them lasting longer than 20 minutes.

Got any evidence for such a claim?

Gee John, why'd you edit your original message where you said you thought I made that up? It's not the first time you've come within the same room as calling me a liar.

I'm not saying you have a chip on your shoulder, because as you said, I don't know you outside of this thread, but you using a lot of lauguage and buzz words that screem, the world doesn't like who I want to be and that's not fair, so I really hope this is a case of internet communication breakdown.

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here. Most people have this perceived idea of how people are supposed to talk. I'm not writing a story here, this isn't a formal application, I talk how I talk. If you were sitting in the same room with me, or we were having a web cam conversation where you could hear my tone, or see my body language I think you'd have a totally different opinion.

It's ironic both because it's the same kind of thing I'm talking about in regards to appearance, but also because what you guys perceive as "normal" typing tone, I often find threatening. For example, I have always found True and especially Parsons' to come off as very condescending, particularly the way they like to throw out the last word and then lock threads, but most others don't seem to have issues with them. Maybe they just like me. Actually when I first joined here, Parsons was a pretty nice and helpful guy.

I'm sorry I don't live up to anyone's communication standards anymore than I conform to your ideas of professionalism.

I really don't have anything more to say in this thread. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, just defend my own statements, or clarify if necessary. I think judging people on appearance is wrong, and I don't agree with True's statement about researching a company either. Often times the attire expected during the interview process is nowhere near what you would wear on a job to begin with. And again, I understand that this is how it is, I just don't agree with it, and I started this thread, because I had thought that there was a chance that in a society where guys like Jesse James, Russell Mitchell, various rockstars, etc. are seen day in and day out on television with tattoos and piercings or worse that we might have moved beyond just seeing a mark on someone's skin. Judging someone's intent without knowing them is just wrong.

I don't think there's really much left for me to say.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

Gee John, why'd you edit your original message where you said you thought I made that up? It's not the first time you've come within the same room as calling me a liar.

I'll take that as a no.

[parsonsj]

Another downside to tattoos:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktl...8.story?hpt=T2

[Tony_SS]

Another downside to tattoos:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktl...8.story?hpt=T2

I would say that's a downside to being an idiot.

[Damn True]

I don't know, maybe because I get the impression you've never held a "normal" job where you weren't required to have a college education or where you never considered it a career. Maybe back when you were in h.s. Or maybe you think that was your time in the military? I think I remember you saying or at least implying that you served.

If you've never held a job that you've considered disposable that you were just doing because you needed the pay check, then I guess you couldn't really relate. I admit I haven't applied for a ton of jobs in my lifetime. I consider that a good thing, because it shows I'm a person who perseveres and has the ability to hold onto a job. But of the 3 or 4 jobs I have interviewed for, while there were usually multiple interviews, I don't remember any of them lasting longer than 20 minutes.

You presume too much.

I don't agree with True's statement about researching a company either. Often times the attire expected during the interview process is nowhere near what you would wear on a job to begin with.

I don't think there's really much left for me to say.

[mellowyellowCJ7]

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here. Most people have this perceived idea of how people are supposed to talk. I'm not writing a story here, this isn't a formal application, I talk how I talk. If you were sitting in the same room with me, or we were having a web cam conversation where you could hear my tone, or see my body language I think you'd have a totally different opinion.

I get the feeling we could have this conversation over a beer and at the end we'd both be smiling and I'd probably pat you on the back of the shoulder and say something stupid like, good luck changing the world, but in the mean time keep your tattoos under the collar.

[mellowyellowCJ7]

Another downside to tattoos:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktl...8.story?hpt=T2

Please note that all of his tattoos can be covered with proper business attire. :p

[parsonsj]

Please note that all of his tattoos can be covered with proper business attire.

I guess he's ready for corporate life, lol.

[wmhjr]

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here. Most people have this perceived idea of how people are supposed to talk. I'm not writing a story here, this isn't a formal application, I talk how I talk. If you were sitting in the same room with me, or we were having a web cam conversation where you could hear my tone, or see my body language I think you'd have a totally different opinion.

Mathius, I need to put my foot down here. You started this thread asking for feedback. You got it. You don't like it. So now, everyone else is either wrong, racist, or somehow flawed otherwise. Everyone else BTW, who may have gone through hundreds of interviews, who may RUN companies if not own them, many of whom have their OWN tattoos. I don't have a problem with your language or your communication. I simply believe you started the thread either hoping for vindication of your own opinion, or with an intent to stir the pot. That's fine.

But.

You're wrong. Nobody is assailing your ability to choose to have tattoos whever in gods name you want them. Do what you want. But please don't just spew BS about "what's wrong with this country" etc. I'm in the midst of hiring 5 more direct reports to me right now. The process BEGINS with phone screens of selected applicants. Then, since these are senior individual contributor technical roles in the $100k range, it goes to technical phone screens. Then about 6 hour long interviews with various people. Finally, a very small subset will interview with me. They will have a minimum of 10 hours of phone/interview time prior to getting an offer letter. I can't afford bad hires. The investment of both time and money is too large. Judgement and ability to consider somebody elses viewpoint and not introduce unnecessary conflict are essential. This has been the hiring practice everywhere I've been for at least the past 12 yrs. At MY level, it's WAY more involved than that. So please reserve your assumptions for how "hiring is done" for people who don't hire.

Anyway, I don't know you and have no idea of you're a great guy (which you probably are) or not. My job in selecting people is to use my JUDGEMENT to try and guess how an individual will meet our commercial needs based on every bit of information, perception and intuition I can bring to bear. Your tattoos are right in my face if they're exposed, and I can do nothing but guess. My guess will always favor those who try to fit the model of a "professional" at work.

Let me tell you something else - pure fact. A question I ask EVERY SINGLE CANDIDATE is to tell me what they know about my company. It tells me how much they prepared. If they have prepared, it is a logical extension to conclude there is a better chance of them being a thorough, diligent and meticulous employee than somebody who walks in cold.

Judging someones intent without knowing them is EXACTLY what the interview process is all about. Period. End of story.

[shmoov69]

Man....where is the dead horse icon?!?

Get your sleeve man!! Go do it! Now!! Hurry!!! Prove us wrong, you are going to have to for any one of to believe it!! You asked, you got answers, you don't like them and want to argue your point. We all hear your point, it's a good point, but it just don't fly in reality!

My wife DVR's a show that she watches when I am trying to go to sleep in bed, it is called "How Do I Look?". I don't know the channel, but you can watch that a few times and see how "the real world" perceives "individualism". It is NOT with open arms and accepting of "personal statement". Just life, deal with it!

[parsonsj]

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here.

Let's search for the common element...

[454bug]

Let's recap...

The guy asks a question. He gets answers. He doesn't like the answers. He argues why the world is screwed up and should see it his way. Any amount of reasoning with the guy to see the "big picture" of professionalism is ignored. He then resorts to labeling the same individuals who are attempting to help the guy. Very sad...

It's almost like the guy threw a question out there, knowing what the answers would be, just looking to pick a fight... He says he doesn't like too many people... With that kind of chip on his shoulder, that comment is probably a two-way street...

Tattoos are cool. Like anything else, they just have their place and time to be displayed, viewed, and enjoyed.

[Daren]

The interviewer is paid to make judgments based on that interview and owes the interviewee nothing. The interviewee has one shot at communicating what is going on in his or her head and what value they bring to the company.

Get that engineering degree and your interview process will change a great deal. The last interview process I entered into involved was on the order of 8 hours.

Getting back to your original post, you said that you’re exploring what doors will open with more education? Many
Then you essentially asked what doors will close if you get tattoos on your arm and hands? A few
If you go into an interview and give any hint that you have a chip on your shoulder of any sort, but particulary about unfair characterization/stereotypes/profiling, how many doors will close? Nearly all

I'm not saying you have a chip on your shoulder, because as you said, I don't know you outside of this thread, but you using a lot of lauguage and buzz words that screem, the world doesn't like who I want to be and that's not fair, so I really hope this is a case of internet communication breakdown.

The engineering field holds interviews on the order of 8 hours? *gulp* I'm a mechanical engineering major. Scary. But hey I went with engineering as major for a reason.