Question to Ponder

[Danny Thomas]

As we move forward with all the car events..as a participant ,would you rather all cars be classed together or would you rather run only with regular joes and let the big dogs such as DSE, TCI, ridetech, Speedtech and all the others run in a class by themselves. How bout professional drivers, where would they be placed? Its a very complicated question as that I personally would rather run with guys with my skills but on the other hand I would like to see how I stack up with the big dogs, which is usually crappy. Do we as event promoters seperate and have two winners at each event? How would that work with the optima challenge invitation? I definitely would love to see all the vendors showing what their stuff has to offer and I'm sure that would also put a competitive spirit in those guys. Just a thought..what do you think....Maybe all of us should be lumped together and just worry about improving on our skills and times and if we beat someone that has an advantage over us Regular Joes then what a great weekend.

[shmoov69]

Well, would Finch be a regular Joe? I think he was but kept improving his skills till he beat the "pros"! But I could be mistaken. Something to shoot to tho!

To answer the Q, I don't have to worry about it because I am in the novice class, just where I belong! Lol. And I DO like the novice, intermediate and "pro" classes they had at the MMCC last year.

[andrewb70]

What is the point of this post?



Andrew

[Rod]

we should race against the best! that's how you get better, if you don't have a target to shoot for then whats the point of the event, your just dumbing down the competition around yourself and therefore lowering you're own level

if this was about the RTTC II event , I would fix the other issues, (I.E.) like the Friday run (the real run to the coast part) how about during that have assigned stop points were the entire group stops (like at the beach parking lot in Laguna beach) for photo Ops (on the beach) with there car they just dragged across the country or state, or TOMS farm for snacks and etc.( as a group)

I had no problem, I stopped at all the sites the bummer was that I ended up driving what could have been a cool run with other hotrods, was just a day with my girl friend and car

[Danny Thomas]

The point is what would you like to see at an event you attend. You pay money to beat on your car, do you want to see how it and your skills stacks up with everyone that attends including professionals or do you want to see different classes? This is just a question that would maybe help with events. Not saying something will change or should change, I was just wondering if it should be changed..Everyone likes to win and are very competitive but do you have a chance with a professional driver running in the same catagory as you? I know that this would also be hard to police as who should be where, but maybe it could be a honesty type deal..now obviously we would know the likes of a Finch and those that win time after time....There maybe many that are fine as it is and feel that they can use their results to study upon and how to improve upon, but even Nascar has different classes that you graduate to...and yes I know this is not Nascar but just using as an example.

I guess another point in the final answer would be ...Does it matter whether you win an award or not? Or should prizes just all be raffled off for all those that attend?

As for as the point made above about the RTTC 2 cruise...I agree that stops and pictures would have been nice and a group running together, but the logistics just sometimes do not work out. With that many cars and traffic lights you are going to get spread apart. As a promoter, I had ask the lead car to scout out a beach stop for pics but since my car was in the rear and seperate from the pact I could not help organize this. My suggestion to all in a cruise is to try to stay in small packs and hopefully you enjoy the run. I know Yancy and I was along on a huge portion of the cruise but we still had a great time riding along the coast and thru the canyons. In the future we at RTTC will try to improve upon our cruise but like I said the number of cars, exact route and weather will always be the factors to deal with. Sincerely hope all still enjoyed the route we took.

[wmhjr]

I think overall, the winner is the winner. The best performer. Everyone runs together. However, there could also be recognition for the "best of the Joes". That means non pro built cars with non pro drivers. That helps showcase the pro-touring movement at the grass roots level. Let's face it, the pros don't need encouragement - they're in it as a business. We need (especially where I'm from) recognition that you can do much of it yourself without $200k and still have fun and be fast(ish). Not we personally need the recognition. We as a community do in order to promote the hobby.

Vendors should want this as it promotes grass root growth. Growth increases potential revenue. The rest of us should want it because growth means more product development, greater economies of scale, therefore more reasonable costs with mort parts availability - and maybe more events.

[Nessumsar]

I think it should be seperated by privately-owned and company-owned cars. It is a little out of scope to pit my $7000 Nova against the $XXX,XXX big-boys; especially when companies are offering up contingency prizes. Just make sure the driver of the car either owns it, or works for the company that owns it.

[67zo6Camaro]

What is the point of this post?

Andrew

Grummmmpy Pill. What, are we not allowed to ask questions anymore Mr. Moderator?...LoL and poke!

In my opinion, I think this is a valid point. Some of these companies that show up are trying to show case their products. They spend money and time dialing in their vehicles and hire pro drivers sometimes. Yes it's great to run with them at the event and allows for friendships to build, but I think from a result standings point of view, I would like to see two list recorded. If the average joe list gets some great times then so be it. At least it will make it easier for use to determind were we stand with the regular group and we can compare times within the timing of the big dog group... Even if someone wants to move into the vender/pro group, then they can request it.

Brett

[tommycomfort]

OK, here's my rant that has been building for a while...

Lets be honest here, we're not talking about fender to fender racing. At the end of the day, as long as your classed with similar levels of cars and drivers on a road course it all ends the same. Does it matter who runs what at an auto-x event? Not in the least, but on a road course it is nothing more than a hassle to have to keep looking in your rearview mirror to see if a car twice as fast as yours is knocking at the door. With that said, I made my biggest improvement last year at Motorstate when Jeff Schwartz blew my doors off in the Temptress. After he passed I tried to hang with him for a full lap. Just seeing the line he was running was priceless.
I'm a little miffed when I read guys saying how dollars invested makes a difference in who runs with who. We have untold amounts of money invested in our Chevelle, but over a nine year period. Sure my kids would have loved to have an in ground pool (Deb and I too) or new living room furniture but we chose to invest money in our car project(s) instead. Or, a pro-built car compared to a home built car? We did build most of ours ourselves but paid to have it painted and a few other things. Where do we draw the line? Are guys just trying to juggle the rules around until they fair the best? Instead of trying to regulate (over govern) this absolutely wonderful hobby lets just enjoy it for what it is. An amazing way to enjoy our cars and hang out with great like minded people. Believe it or not, I have more to say, but it is probably better saved for another post or a book someday. Feel free to PM to cuss me out.

[Jim Nilsen]

Think about this and then think about racing class rules.

I was at Goodguy's and was up against everyone and there was this Flying Turd that has more power and a better driver but I actually was starting to turn better times because it was an auto x that is all about the traction of the car and little to do with much more skill than not hitting cones. Was my car better? driving? I don't really know why but I was faster. My tires were darn near twice as wide and we couldn't go over 35 mph at the most so traction wins.

The point, classing the cars in closer to equal power to weight classes is what has always been done and is what works the best. Dividing up the people at the event is not something that works well when it is about all being together for fun. Vendors already pass on awards because they bring em.

I say leave it the way it is other than maybe trying to do a limited and unlimited class to keep the pace up at the right cadence for the capabilities of the cars. Noone likes a super slow car in front of them all day. But novice ,intermediate, and experienced classes do a good job of dividing up the cars in groups of power too. It's tough being a novice with a wicked powerful car in more than one way,LOL. I wish I had that much power to go beyond my capabilities until something happens.

I understand where this is going and it really is a point we all think about when we know we are outgunned and don't want to be embarrassed. I got over it and am only there for the fun.



I just want to give my money and go have fun with no tickets except winning tickets for prizes. !!!

[Finch]

I have no issues with having a vendor class or not, as long as it is consistent across all events. If there is a vendor class then it should not be decided by if the vendor is a sponsor of the event or not, but more by those who are there to highlight the parts they manufacture/produce. If you are a brand and are trying to win future business by demonstration/marketing or just even product improvement through real world testing then the event is a write off and you can legitimately be considered a vendor. (Just one suggestion)

Lastly I have no issues even if I was placed into a vendor class. The last few years have been great and I have proved what I needed to prove so would be more than willing to let others have a shot at the spotlight. The closer you get the more it drives you so do not want people to get discouraged along the way.

[YancyJohns]

First off, I want to Thank everyone who participated at the RTTC event and hope every one had a Great time!! I want to personally Thank all the Vendors who supported the event along with the volunteers especially Greg and Chuck. Every year we learn more from our past events to further a better outcome for future events. Next year, all participants will be in the same class regardless if you are a vendor, media or participant!! Furthermore, as stated per this years rules, If you registered the car, You Must Be The Driver!! Again, it's about having FUN with our friends and drinking a little apple pie, right Doug!!!

[Derek69SS]

I would like to run against similar equipment... I'd like to see 2 simple classes, not separated by who's driving or who owns them, but by the car's capabilities. A "Pro" class with no rules, and a "Touring" class aimed at "bolt-on" modified cars with some car limitations. I wouldn't put any limits on engines or suspension design, with the exception of IRS. Also, put a "hot-shoe" stipulation that hired drivers are for exhibition only and not eligible for points...

To be eligible for the "Touring" class, I'd require
-Car model/generation introduced prior to 1980 (example: 2nd gen camaro introduced 1970, so up to '81 would be eligible)
-No more than 2 lightweight body panels of non-factory material.
-Windows made of factory material
-Full interior (back seat required if it originally came with one, seats, floor coverings, door panels, headliner all in place - can be custom, but must be "finished")
-Tire size limited to 1200mm when adding all 4 widths together
-Solid rear axle req'd unless the car was factory available with IRS
-stock wheelbase
-firewall in stock location

Things that would bump you into "Pro" would be
-late model cars introduced after 1980
-All kit cars (cobras, etc)
-Roll Cage
-Lexan windows
-more than 2 lightweight body panels of non-factory material
-more than 1200mm of tire width
-gutted interiors/removed rear seat
-IRS on cars originally equipped with a solid axle
-modified wheelbase beyond 1"
-engine setback beyond what a stock firewall would allow.

That would IMHO be the best way for the "average" guy to be able to compete... I do a lot of SCCA events, but my car is 1000lbs overweight for its class... there's already a place where I can go to get slaughtered by "race cars". The "Run To" events are really the only place where I can go with my average bolt-on pro-touring car, and expect to be somewhat competitive. I don't want that to change...

[JEFFTATE]

It depends on how big the event is. ( Like , the number of cars entered )
At small events , we can keep everyone in the same run group.
A big events , it may be beneficial to split up the run groups by "regular joe" , "vendor" , or whatever .
What really matters is the time slips ,

It's all for fun-runs anyway .

The vendors are not usually eligible for the prizes or trophies .

Does it really matter if someone spends $5000 or $500,000 on their car ?? Or if they bring in a pro driver / friend / hired gun ??
There's no money or cash prizes at these events anyway ..

Your time slip tells you where you stack up ..

[Flash68]

Some good discussion and ideas here I think.

I can tell you that as a rookie at RTTC, I had a blast and had pretty aggressive goals of getting into the top 1/4 of cars or better, which I did achieve. I can really see both sides of this topic and don't really have a strong opinion either way I think yet. That may change. I like gunning for the Pozzi's, and the other vendors with badass cars. In fact, I already beat some of them as a rookie so they are not all world-beaters.

And what is this talk of "pro" drivers? Are any of these vendors/"pro" drivers getting paid to do this? Not that I am aware of.

And to all the people saying "it's just for fun"..... yeah, maybe for you and some others. But there are many of us who are competitive in each and every thing we do in life, and it's not a simple switch to turn off. Am I expecting to beat Kyle Tucker and Brian Finch tmrw? No, of course not. But if there are people around me doing the same thing I'm doing and are being competitive at it, I am not going to have the "just for fun" attitude I can guarantee you that. And I know I speak for some others too who are the same way.

For me, fun is the ultimate result of competing hard and giving it your best. This is in no way a knock on those who truly are just there to have fun -- that's all fine and dandy -- but I am just not wired that way.

It's racing at the end of the day. Who doesn't want to win a race?

[Derek69SS]

And to all the people saying "it's just for fun"..... yeah, maybe for you and some others. But there are many of us who are competitive in each and every thing we do in life, and it's not a simple switch to turn off. Am I expecting to beat Kyle Tucker and Brian Finch tmrw? No, of course not. But if there are people around me doing the same thing I'm doing and are being competitive at it, I am not going to have the "just for fun" attitude I can guarantee you that. And I know I speak for some others too who are the same way.

For me, fun is the ultimate result of competing hard and giving it your best. This is in no way a knock on those who truly are just there to have fun -- that's all fine and dandy -- but I am just not wired that way.

Same here... I can turn off that switch when drag-racing, but I have a really hard time with it in things I care about, like autocross.

[67zo6Camaro]

x2 Bro (Flash68)

As for the term "Pro-Driver" I use loosly. Some of the drivers are not owners of the cars, in fact, some of these drivers are asked to drive cars because of their driving resume. Yes, it's true they are not potentially getting paid, but I think the intention is to put the car in the best light possible by using the best qualified driver available. For what you ask, bragging rights I quess, the same reason I can't turn my switch off.

So, lol, I do have a few calls in for qualified drivers... However, Mary and David said they were busy, all the Nascar dudes said they have contracts. I guess that just leaves my sorry lead foot ass, quite fun actually as I drift occasionally. Not the fastest way, but fun.

Cheers
Brett

[Nessumsar]

Some good discussion and ideas here I think.

I can tell you that as a rookie at RTTC, I had a blast and had pretty aggressive goals of getting into the top 1/4 of cars or better, which I did achieve. I can really see both sides of this topic and don't really have a strong opinion either way I think yet. That may change. I like gunning for the Pozzi's, and the other vendors with badass cars. In fact, I already beat some of them as a rookie so they are not all world-beaters.

And what is this talk of "pro" drivers? Are any of these vendors/"pro" drivers getting paid to do this? Not that I am aware of.

And to all the people saying "it's just for fun"..... yeah, maybe for you and some others. But there are many of us who are competitive in each and every thing we do in life, and it's not a simple switch to turn off. Am I expecting to beat Kyle Tucker and Brian Finch tmrw? No, of course not. But if there are people around me doing the same thing I'm doing and are being competitive at it, I am not going to have the "just for fun" attitude I can guarantee you that. And I know I speak for some others too who are the same way.

For me, fun is the ultimate result of competing hard and giving it your best. This is in no way a knock on those who truly are just there to have fun -- that's all fine and dandy -- but I am just not wired that way.

It's racing at the end of the day. Who doesn't want to win a race?

x2 exactly.

[rrunner68]

It has been talked about quite a bit before, and always gets moved to the side. Fact is, now that there are contingency monies being paid and invites to OUSCI, it is no longer "just for fun" for quite a few people. Fact is, all things being fair, class limitations or handicap system for final scoring should be implemented and is a long time coming. At a minimum, SCCA classing should be used for broad strokes, Stock, Stock Prepared, Prepared. When it a a bunch of guys at a track doing timed runs at a track day, it is "just for fun". When you start putting $$ in, its gonna get competititive, I don't care who you are.

[JEFFTATE]

I think we should keep the events as friendly and easy as possible.
If we start getting very complicated , and adding several classes of cars , and power-to-weight classes and such , we are gonna' be just like NASA and SCCA ..
What is the point of that ??
Those great organizations are already established , and they do a great job , but we don't want to be just like them .. We fill a different niche' in the world ..

I just don't want the events to get more complicated and more expensive ..

If I wanted all that , I'd be over at NASA ..