Vendor not delivering parts Part II

[parsonsj]

Larry doesn't get paid. Can he be sainted for that?

Larry is the man.

[trapin]

Larry doesn't get paid. Can he be sainted for that?

We opted to have him Knighted instead. It was cheaper.

[sr73bu]

Instead of bashing a sponsor on an open forum, why not resolve the issue on a personal level (email, PM, or the best way over the phone... or if you're that pissed, show up and talk face to face). I've had bad experiences with vendors/sponsors before, but I choose to keep it to myself and keep it between me and the vendor... even if it gets ugly (and it has). Rather than hide behind the "start new thread" button, man up... make a phone call... and handle your own business.

The sponsors and vendors on this site are gearheads, they come here to offer a product and talk "shop"... not to entertain every single person who decides to start a revolution against not only thier company... but thier livelyhood.

If you don't have something nice to say...don't say it to me.... say it to the vendor... rip them a new one until you get the respect/ the part you needed... take them to court if you have too...

The sponsors/vendors are running a business, not Pro-touring.com... lets not turn this site into "Judge Judy". Handle your own business... your not saving anyone time or money by holding a "he said- she said" debate thread (because thats what rating systems/etc. turn into)... Lets come here and share ideas for building cars, not to play "jury" for latest guy that got his part a day late.

In the end, taking care of the problem without making it public usually ends way better than an "apology" thread or regreting a post the day after someone "pissed in your cornflakes" and you cooled off.


-Sean

[dontlifttoshift]

I really don't think this is the best spot to have it out with a vendor but I do realize that some people "need" to do that. The method that Critter posted seems the most reasonable way to do that. A rating system would become a poplularity contest and I think volume would skew the ratings.

Let's be honest, there is no one here that hasn't had a bad experience with a vendor at some point. The wait on hold for tech support is enough to bitch about with some of the large outfits. So now members would have a special spot to complain.....so they would. Kind of like I don't eat ice cream, unless its in the freezer at home.

I'm going to send Freiburger a nasty email.....Those enhancement pills didn't work and I want to know what he's going to do about it.

[wmhjr]

Sean, and dontliftoshift,
I understand your point but don't agree. First of all, the whole thing including suggestions like vendor ratings, my suggestion or critters suggestion are intended for when a vendor simply doesn't respond. Or to be honest, perhaps when a customer doesn't respond - for example if a vendor runs a custom shop and isn't getting either paid or return calls from a customer.

Second, to say take it to court is ridiculous. Sometimes we're talking about amounts where the cost is prohibitive. Or, where the location makes such an action impractical. It's just nonsense.

Third, when this happens, it can result in others not knowing and then THEY fall into the same trap.

Again, i have the utmost respect for the vendors here, and consider many friends as well as businesses - and I don't see this as being a big problem. But from time to time, things can happen.

[sr73bu]

Sean, and dontliftoshift,
I understand your point but don't agree. First of all, the whole thing including suggestions like vendor ratings, my suggestion or critters suggestion are intended for when a vendor simply doesn't respond. Or to be honest, perhaps when a customer doesn't respond - for example if a vendor runs a custom shop and isn't getting either paid or return calls from a customer.

Second, to say take it to court is ridiculous. Sometimes we're talking about amounts where the cost is prohibitive. Or, where the location makes such an action impractical. It's just nonsense.

Third, when this happens, it can result in others not knowing and then THEY fall into the same trap.

Again, i have the utmost respect for the vendors here, and consider many friends as well as businesses - and I don't see this as being a big problem. But from time to time, things can happen.

The whole court thing was me going on a tangent, however it may apply in some cases... party A owes party B $20,000+ for a service or a part that was not delivered...action will be taken... I wouldn't call it non-sense.

Anyway, thats not the point i'm trying to make... the point is, I foresee alot of... Company A vs. Pissed off customer/ pissed off friend/slightly pissed of customer/customer that wasn't fully satisfied/ guy that wants to start trouble and post BS... essentially Company A vs. everyone else. I think it may lead to a "biting the hand that feeds you" type deal. Sponsors names are smeared over one guy thats had a bad day and needs to express his frustration via a "these guys suck.." thread. Sponsor moves on, says "F" the event support and other involvement.

If a vendor doesn't want to respond, who are we to start judging them.. none of us had anything to do with the order or have any facts. I could post a thread on here about a major vendor i've had terrible problems with... from service, shipping, to quality... but I may be the only guy thats had that experience and now i'm going to thrash thier name on a podium because i can??? I'd rather resolve it and let everyone else find out for themselves... if they treated all of thier customers like crap the business will desolve on its own... I'm not going to speed up the process because of "its all about me"... If i'm the only guy thats had a problem, I make a post about it, in effect deter potenial satisfied customers.. then who does that benefit? Especially when its quite possible every single person before me may have been happy with thier service, shipping and quality.

wmhjr- I think in a perfect world a rating system may work, but there are way too many levels of what a satisfied customer expects... a perfect part for me, may be dog crap quality to you... Most people are more likey to go out of thier way to post a negitive score than a postive one... "Its all about me" and if "me" is happy, then "me" moves on... but if "me" is not happy, than "me" bitches, moans, hisses and starts telling the world about it.

-Sean

[wmhjr]

Funny, but if you look at the history on this site, you see quite a bit of members posting a positive comment about vendors - and very rarely a harsh word concerning a vendor. Start by looking at some of mine. I'm one of the guys arguing for this and I've never posted a complaint about a sponsor, and have posted a number of kudos, thanks and recognition for them. Let's be honest - not all transactions went perfectly either. I've had sponsors not come close to meeting promised delivery dates, etc. Sometimes things happen. No flame. It would just be nice to know that if there was ever an issue that was NOT resolved, then it ought to be transparent.

Let me give you another example. I had some chrome work done by a shop having nothing to do with this site. I had major issues, and ended up having to get police involved just to get my parts back. After the fact I find out that others have had the same issue. Now ask me just how much it would have been worth up front to have a clue about this, resulting in my choosing another vendor?

I look at it from a pretty simple perspective.

1) We are fortunate to have some really great vendors/partners especially on this site, which means that I seriously doubt that we'd end up with a flame war. I just don't buy it.

2) We are encouraged to "support our sponsors" - which I have zero issues with and try my very best to do.

3) If we're going to be actively encouraged to "support our sponsors", then from an ethical point of view there needs to also be a way for the very infrequent - nonetheless possible - bad situations to be addressed. This helps to improve the service provided by the vendor in question, resolve the issue that the buyer has, and potentially (if a trend develops) help others avoid a similar issue. Sure, if a vendor is constantly hacking over customers eventually it will PROBABLY catch up with them. But not always, and frankly it doesn't matter if it catches up in 8 months if you place an order within 2 months. I think we can all come up with some vendor names (to be clear - NONE of our sponsors fall into this category to my knowledge) who somehow manage to stay in business despite very poor service and/or quality. We both know this is true.

This is JMHO. This is Larrys place, and whatever happens is OK. Great guys here all around. I just happen to not like covering crap up, and frankly I find this site to be the most relevant one all things considered, so I always defer to judgement and experience of others here more than on other sites.

[shmoov69]

First off, Larry you got an awesome site and you have made it a place where we can hang out and BS and make new friends
Which brings me to the second point. We (or most!) on here have become friends in a pretty real sense. If I was going to open a door that had a mugger behind it and my friend knew it, I would be seriously pissed if he didn't tell me BEFORE I opened it!! Rather than hearing AFTERWARDS, "dude, I knew you were going to get your butt kicked and left to die, but I thought I'd let you figure it out for yourself!". I know that it is a sticky situation, but we are all pretty much buddies here. Most of us would open up our house or garage to eachother to help out if given the chance. That is how much I feel we trust eachother here. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think so. Most if the sponsors here are real people and car people too. Maybe just tell the sponsors when they "sign up" that this is a community of friends and that if they don't conduct themselves in a professional manner, then they are subject to being "exposed" to the entire "family" to see. Obviously it would have to be moderated and kept civil by many of the ideas stated earlier. But seriously, we need to watch out for eachother.....that's what friends do!
My .01 worth! LoL

[dontlifttoshift]

Yep, we are all on the same team and should have each others back. That's why if I see a post about a product that I know sucks I will pm the OP and let em know...I don't do it much here because it is usually covered before I get there.

It really doesn't matter to me how this goes down cuz I would never take an internet rant as gospel. I wouldn't even consider it a half truth unless it came from someone whose opinion I respected a whole lot, Like the Pope, my wife, or Charlie Sheen. There is just too many variables with stuff like this.

We all know the guy who could break a steel ball with a rubber mallet, right? So Knuckelhead buys a rubber mallet and a steel ball and locks himself in a rubber room with a video camera and does his thing. Mallet wins. So he gets two posts one to say how great the rubber mallet he got from so and so was and another post to warn everybody about someone's steel balls and how they crack and crumble. Then some random metallurgist who never posts anything, ever, joins in and says "it MUST be poor heat treating" Within weeks google searches across the country are telling anyone that searches for steel balls that this particular brand of steel balls have poor heat treating. Then it starts getting regurgitated in other forums relating to steel balls, meanwhile the rubber mallet company is running three shifts to keep up with demands because of the rave review. In reality, Knucklehead is an idiot.

It could happen.... One guy can create a hurricane of poop just because he is unhappy....with or without good reason.

Now the fine print, if you didn't giggle at least a little reading that and took it totally seriously you are going to be pi$$ed at me. I am not all stupid, I realize that people do have a legitimate gripe in some cases but I deal with vendors everyday, some of them sponsors on here some you have never heard of. I have never been unable to resolve a situation with a phone conversation...

Its late and Im rambling....I'm still with critter on this.

[Roadrage David]

Glad to see this is being discussed. I used to be totally ignored in the past probeley because of my dislectia and being dutch.
I DO belive that this forum hase a DUTY to protect the custumours that are members on this forum . Against bad bisenis from sponderd Vendors.
Again This Scene ore movemend called pro-Touring is kept alive by 3 parties The forums Vendors and custumors/members wo spend there hard eurnd cash in this rather ECSPENSIF hobby.
Some of us have a larger walled then others, and others like myself who are from Europe have to pay 25% Tax not only on the part valiuew but on the costs of shipping as wel!!!!.
Can you imagine how often we get THE WRONG parts and cant send them back because thats econimicle not posible...

having mentiond our EUROPEAN forum members dilema witch should NOT be overlookt .Lets get back to this topic.
Howmanny times have we heard vendors saying and promising stuf like short dilivery and ore DIRECT bold on ecetera ecetera.
then as soon as your $$ are in its out of your hands into theres LITTERLY.

There is NO rezen not to get a Vendor rating and ore a way to ecspress your exsperionse with a vendor being it good ore bad.
as said befor everybody wil bennifit in the long run.

if a Site sponser screws up and gets bad feedback on this forum and canncel his sponser ship . then he wassend a assed to the scene ore forum ore members in the first place!!.Otherwize he would NOT have multiply negatif feedback

Lots of people can be stopt from being screwed out of there money if others could have should have would have been able to comend.
It can be done very simple.
Every site sponser gets his own feed back line topic ore whatever.
every complaintend ore peron that whants to praze hise dealings get 4 lines ore somanny letters to say his thing . a vendor gets the same to difend his dealings. end of story.
hase the problem been solved at a later date ,then both parties can askt the moderaters to delete there posts. and ore do it themselfs.
If the problem isend ore thuse not gets solved. it stays up there in a list (hopefully for the vendor) ful with lines of good merrit.

The sponsering Vendors who stand out should and would get our MONEY and rightfully disirf so!. and thats how it should be.. This thussend say that good vendors is not getting a ocasional bad ore negatif feedback .
But you can always look at the statisticks and ore the% of the feedback.... To make a judgemend who gets you money!!

[sr73bu]

wmhjr-

I totally agree about "not covering up crap"... I just don't know how everyone defines crap. You and I let things slide because we understand "***** happens", where others will anounce a scratch on the inside of thier new oilpan to the world and give a bad rating. I'm obviously not the type of person that relies on others to make a decision or to get in my head about where to buy, but there are people that do make decisions based on this. I have to admitt, i've used companies before that have had negitive feedback and I was actually impressed with thier service and product... had I been more of a "follower" I would not have even give them a chance.
I guess my point lies in whats happening right now: you have two people discussing an opinion.. nothing more nothing less. People will take sides (see above)... the discussion will turn into a debate... the debate turns into an arguement... then the friendship that was bonded by a hobby turns into bad blood. (i assure you this wont happen here wmhjr, I not upset about your opinion, just sharing what i've experienced)

Again, I do believe we can watch out for each other.. my OPINION is the rating will be skewed based on the simple fact that when you are happy with a part or service you open the box and go work on your car. If you are not, the whole world knows. You have to admit, the amount of parts ordered on this site by members are huge each year... i dont see thousands of "gee this part is awesome" threads, I see more of the "this part sucked" kind of thread... and quite frankly those are the threads that get attention.

I see this somewhat working if the rating system is REALLY promoted... good or bad as a member of the site its encouraged that you make a rating... I still think more of the unsatisfied will participate... like dontliftoshift said There are just too many variables with stuff like this... to many "know it alls" and the people that follow them.

-Sean

[absintheisfun]

Instead of bashing a sponsor on an open forum, why not resolve the issue on a personal level (email, PM, or the best way over the phone... or if you're that pissed, show up and talk face to face). I've had bad experiences with vendors/sponsors before, but I choose to keep it to myself and keep it between me and the vendor... even if it gets ugly (and it has). Rather than hide behind the "start new thread" button, man up... make a phone call... and handle your own business.

Sometimes that is not an option. THe vender that I was having trouble with dodge me for months. It started with a call a month, then two per month, then a call per week, then two, then one a day. He stopped answering the phone, and ignored voicemails. I emailed every week, and sent PM's through this site and others that he sponsors every week as well. Considering the guy lives 1100 miles away, stopping by wasn't really an option.

[wmhjr]

Sean, the only response i really have is - look through my posts. You'll see a pretty large number thanking vendors for their service. Very few mentioning problems, and those were done very nicely and not at all harshly. None whatsoever flaming. I dont think I'm all that special in that regard. Seems to me that this is the norm. For this forum. I see no signs of this changing. Matter of fact I agree that ratings would probably be skewed. Toward the positive.

[sr73bu]

wmhjr- i know the kind of person you are and the type of people that are on this forum... most of them are class acts. I've seen your posts and just by looking at your avatar see that we agree on many levels. I just know there are people out there that get off on flaming a company or product. I've seen company bashing on other forums and I felt people took advantage of the podium. BUT, this forum is different, we do have a more mature crowd and thats something I really wasn't considering... and should have.
you dont have to prove your character to me, i've already seen your posiive feedback and diplomatic approach on something negitive... its the "other guy" that I feared would take advantage of the rating system. Again, the current group of guys here are all well respected and treat others with respect... its the growing crowd that concerns me... the "other type" of forum member that signs up to vent.
Overall this thread has been a good discussion, I'd like to hear some of our vendors/sponsors views on this matter.... they may love the idea.

-Sean

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Couple of sideline observations for you guys - first off, the guy posted on Lat G that he got most of his parts and will continue to do business w the vendor. He also said that he could've done a better job on his end communicating w the vendor.

I think a number of excellent philiosophical issues have been raised in this thread and I have refrained from posting till now to avoid speaking out of turn (read: going off). I did speak to Larry today and he is all about making this fair and just for the members and vendor sponsers. I am not putting words in his mouth, just relaying my perception of what he told me 1:1. All the mods are taking this thread/issue seriously and looking at ways to implement some of the great suggestions in this thread. I believe positive action will come from it, if Larry is to be trusted (just kidding Larry!).

In this second thread, it's great to see open communication from all sides and value from the mods in letting this go forward. I'm glad I'm part of this community. Keep communication open, and good things will come from it.

[wmhjr]

Truth is, the posts in this thread alone are proof of the pretty unique nature of this board. Look at how many posts there are showing concern over being totally fair, and about the welfare of both the guys running the board, and the vendors that support it. Guys, in my experience, that's a great thing and isn't very common.

Sean, thanks for the kind comments.

[dhutton]

Couple of sideline observations for you guys - first off, the guy posted on Lat G that he got most of his parts and will continue to do business w the vendor. He also said that he could've done a better job on his end communicating w the vendor.

No parts for 8 months and they show up a couple of days after his post. Is that a just a coincidence? Would be interested to hear if it was.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

No parts for 8 months and they show up a couple of days after his post. Is that a just a coincidence? Would be interested to hear if it was.

Yeah Don, I'm sure there's plenty of backstory to be revealed on this one....

[1969CamaroRS]

On LatG the OP seems to indicate that there might have been a mix up in the email addresses.

[parsonsj]

He also admits not calling the vendor for the entire time before posting his thread.

I'd call that a failure to communicate, and as a moderator, I think we did the right thing by closing the original thread down. If you don't call the vendor, you shouldn't be posting a thread.

jp