RTTH VII Rules/Ideas

[JEFFTATE]

What has made our events so cool in my opinion, is the diversity of cars running. My fear is our events being taken over by a sanctioning body(NASA,SCCA,ETC.)and then the rule book comes out, and all the crap starts. Up until now its been the wild,wild west, and I for one like it that way.

I think Bill has done a good job keeping it fair, after all, its his blood, sweat, and tears putting these things together. Win loose or draw, I haven't been to one event that wasn't a blast.

Not one of us hasn't looked at the feild and said, I'll never beat that guy. Hell, I thought Kyle, and Penny were never going to get beat, now I think Marks new Camaro is unbeatable. Thats what keeps me tinkering with my junk, it makes me faster every event. I know she's changing it now, but Mary Pozzy's small block, leaf sprung Camaro held off almost the entire feild at optima. Don't care what I'm driving, I want to run with the fast kids, even if I never win. Nobody is stopping you from stepping up.

Pick a tread wear number, and lets race. Be careful what you wish for, rules and different classes could end up destroying what I think is a great thing. Ron

Ditto , Ron.
Ditto.

[Glen Koenig]

So does a car have to be licensed and street legal for this event?

[xxxturbo6]

So does a car have to be licensed and street legal for this event?

Well for the backwoods cruise it needs to be licensed and street legal, and in order to compete for the trophy's and prizes you need to complete all three events.


Scot W.

[796spdbu]

Having been around all sorts of racing,I can say this. When you start making classes and rules..it will ruin an event. I remember building a few spec class 10.5 drag cars and having to sell them to bracket racers or completely redoing the car because the rules changed from one year to the next. I heard someone say maybe we should add a weight limit,I dont think that works either. Wieght can be over come by horsepower. If you take a 3000 lb. car with 350 h.p. and put it up against a 4200 lb car with 650 h.p. the heavier car will win. I just used numbers and by no mean shave I figured out the power to wieght ratio,please done flame me..its an example. Then you could say " well I can only fit a 275/40/17 under my car so im not as competative as the guys running 335/35/18..they have more tread width....so that dont work. Then there is the Tread Wear issue..It has been said the more grip the car has..the faster it will get away from you. A 200 TW will let you know when its about to let loose on you,a 140 will not. (again I have no personal evidence of this)but it came from a stand up guy.

Like Ron said its cool to run with the fast guys.. I enjoyed baeting my Camaro at Road America..That was pretty damn cool for me even if I sucked at my lap times. These events are put on to bring Gear Heads together and to have a great time. Its to put some miles down on the cars we have slaved over building for months and years on end. Lets not loose sight of why these events are put on because as soon as we do..its lights out..
You want these events to end up like the Fastest Street Car Shoot outs? Where he who has the deepest pocket wins? So far this isnt that way. Sure there are some high dollar cars out there that will be faster than the rest..Its life. Look at any sporting event..theres always a few who will stand out among the rest. This is no different. But as long as we still have a good time and keep the rules at bay,we can keep enjoying ourselves.

Let give thanks to guys like Bill Howell,Yance Johns,Danny Thomas,Brian Finch,Albert Melchior for putting these events together for us,Let us thank guys/gals like Kyle and Stacey Tucker from Detriot Speed, Frank from Prodigy Customs,The guys at ForgeLine Wheels, Bret Vockel from ridetech,The Morrow family from Spectre,Jimi Day from FM3 marketing Cam Douglas from optima and the other who I am forgetting,for sponsoring these events. With out these guys we wouldnt have these events.

Greg "GT" Tholen

[HectorM52]

What has made our events so cool in my opinion, is the diversity of cars running. My fear is our events being taken over by a sanctioning body(NASA,SCCA,ETC.)and then the rule book comes out, and all the crap starts. Up until now its been the wild,wild west, and I for one like it that way.

I think Bill has done a good job keeping it fair, after all, its his blood, sweat, and tears putting these things together. Win loose or draw, I haven't been to one event that wasn't a blast.

Not one of us hasn't looked at the feild and said, I'll never beat that guy. Hell, I thought Kyle, and Penny were never going to get beat, now I think Marks new Camaro is unbeatable. Thats what keeps me tinkering with my junk, it makes me faster every event. I know she's changing it now, but Mary Pozzy's small block, leaf sprung Camaro held off almost the entire feild at optima. Don't care what I'm driving, I want to run with the fast kids, even if I never win. Nobody is stopping you from stepping up.

Pick a tread wear number, and lets race. Be careful what you wish for, rules and different classes could end up destroying what I think is a great thing. Ron

Couldn't have said it better!!!

[Derek69SS]

Right now, the "Run To" events are the only arena where a heavy vintage American musclecar can be reasonably competitive in autocross... I'd like for it to stay that way if possible.



The competition is going to get tougher every year, that much is certain. Competitive events draw competitive people, and competitive people will build what's required to win. In a few years, the only way to be competitive might be wide-bodied, 2700lb stripped down race cars with 10" of engine setback and IRS. Those cars are way cool and fun to watch, and I hope to build one like that myself someday (except the setback and IRS... mine will be CP legal) but they're not any fun to try to compete against with an average PT car.

I hope it never gets to that point, because it's still a lot of fun the way it is right now... but if it does start to move in that direction, I'd certainly hope that some very simple/basic rules separating the race cars from the street cars would be considered to keep these events as the best place for updated old overweight Detroit Iron to compete with each other...

I'm not complaining, just offering some advice (and offering to help with the legwork) on how to keep it fun and exciting for the average Pro-Tourer...

[The Stickman]

Take it from someone who isn't going to win any of these events. My budget and vehicle choice will make sure of that. Just listen to Ron. We don't need rules. Right now people are building their cars to their liking. Start putting rules out there and you will start having cars to meet those rules. And then we start getting cars that are more and more alike rather than the diverse group we have now. I like the tread wear rule just because it keeps people from over spending on tires when there really isn't a need. Right now I can comfortably drive my car as is with no problems. But take away that tread wear rule and someone will show up with DOT race rubber. And then everyone else will follow that lead. And then you run into one of two problems. Either guys are trying to drive with DOT race tires on cold or wet pavement which isn't a good idea. Or they have multiple sets of tires which is just more money. Keeping things simple is the best approach and Bill has things well in hand.

[stage2ROUSH]

I say ditti,ditto Ron !!!! lets just run we we brung/bring, have MORE fun and best of all learn more about what you and what YOUR car can do ,and best of all, get to be with and make more great friends.of coarse saying all that,I sure hope I get some more stuff for my stang so I can go faster.

[Vegas69]

I skimmed through this thread. If you are really that interesting in winning, this isn't your best bang for your buck. The competition isn't that stiff. You can buy a Miata and run SCCA. An old dirt track car and run circle track, etc. This is for the love of the game. Me personally, I'm running exibition from now on because it makes the most sense for me. I run more SCCA local events that these pro touring events. Running on 300 treadwear BFG's is not anywhere near ideal against real SCCA drivers on A6's. I'll walk the middle ground with a set of r888's and run all the events on the same tire. It just makes sense for me. At the end of the day, 650hp and street tires aren't ideal. I feel safer on my r compounds in all venues.

[sr73bu]

Ron has the right idea.. I think what draws most people is the "wild, wild, west" appeal of the RTT? events. Sign up, Show up and Run what you brung... I'm not really interested in a 20 page rule book telling me what type of seat belts or cage or tires i need. Until the RTTS, I always felt a roadcourse would be out of reach (mostly because of rules, regulations, track availabilty and $) What Bill has created is a series of events that allows guys like me (that tinker in their garage) to see what all that hard would has added up to... and something to look forward to improving... Will I win the next event I attend, Nope and I Don't care... everyone is out there to have fun... thats all I aim to accomplish. I don't want a trophy for the fastest car over 4000lbs, painted yellow, with a chevy 350. I like the rules now: 200 treadwear and don't be an ass. After that you could have 2,000hp.. who cares, if you are running a 200 treadwear tire and your a nice guy- go tear it up...

If you want more rules, you have options, look into NASA or the SCCA... I don't think it fair to start imposing thier rules on these events... thats when the techincal BS starts and the fun stops.


-Sean

[66SuperSport]

Ron has the right idea.. I think what draws most people is the "wild, wild, west" appeal of the RTT? events. Sign up, Show up and Run what you brung... I'm not really interested in a 20 page rule book telling me what type of seat belts or cage or tires i need. Until the RTTS, I always felt a roadcourse would be out of reach (mostly because of rules, regulations, track availabilty and $) What Bill has created is a series of events that allows guys like me (that tinker in their garage) to see what all that hard would has added up to... and something to look forward to improving... Will I win the next event I attend, Nope and I Don't care... everyone is out there to have fun... thats all I aim to accomplish. I don't want a trophy for the fastest car over 4000lbs, painted yellow, with a chevy 350. I like the rules now: 200 treadwear and don't be an ass. After that you could have 2,000hp.. who cares, if you are running a 200 treadwear tire and your a nice guy- go tear it up...

If you want more rules, you have options, look into NASA or the SCCA... I don't think it fair to start imposing thier rules on these events... thats when the techincal BS starts and the fun stops.


-Sean

Very well said.

[SicMonte]

Ron has the right idea.. I think what draws most people is the "wild, wild, west" appeal of the RTT? events. Sign up, Show up and Run what you brung... I'm not really interested in a 20 page rule book telling me what type of seat belts or cage or tires i need. Until the RTTS, I always felt a roadcourse would be out of reach (mostly because of rules, regulations, track availabilty and $) What Bill has created is a series of events that allows guys like me (that tinker in their garage) to see what all that hard would has added up to... and something to look forward to improving... Will I win the next event I attend, Nope and I Don't care... everyone is out there to have fun... thats all I aim to accomplish. I don't want a trophy for the fastest car over 4000lbs, painted yellow, with a chevy 350. I like the rules now: 200 treadwear and don't be an ass. After that you could have 2,000hp.. who cares, if you are running a 200 treadwear tire and your a nice guy- go tear it up...

If you want more rules, you have options, look into NASA or the SCCA... I don't think it fair to start imposing thier rules on these events... thats when the techincal BS starts and the fun stops.


-Sean

Well said Sean...well said.

[barraza]

Right now, the "Run To" events are the only arena where a heavy vintage American musclecar can be reasonably competitive in autocross... I'd like for it to stay that way if possible.

The competition is going to get tougher every year, that much is certain. Competitive events draw competitive people, and competitive people will build what's required to win. In a few years, the only way to be competitive might be wide-bodied, 2700lb stripped down race cars with 10" of engine setback and IRS. Those cars are way cool and fun to watch, and I hope to build one like that myself someday (except the setback and IRS... mine will be CP legal) but they're not any fun to try to compete against with an average PT car.

I hope it never gets to that point, because it's still a lot of fun the way it is right now... but if it does start to move in that direction, I'd certainly hope that some very simple/basic rules separating the race cars from the street cars would be considered to keep these events as the best place for updated old overweight Detroit Iron to compete with each other...

I'm not complaining, just offering some advice (and offering to help with the legwork) on how to keep it fun and exciting for the average Pro-Tourer...

A lot of people want to be unencumbered with rules, and it is a natural desire, but the highlighted part is the truth. If you think SCCA started out with a plan to impose silly rules and strangle competition, you are delusional. They have been down the same road these events are on, and all the "stupid" rules were made by and for the competitors. Increased safety and competition were the primary drivers. Racing big HP cars will eventually mean some big crashes. I have been around racing my entire life, and I have always been amazed at how quickly people forget the destroyed cars and injured drivers from accidents. I think an uncaged car has no business on a road course whatsoever, but people will still bitch about safety rules. I heard of three deaths at amateur driving events last year, and Im sure that is not all of them. Insurance and liability concerns will probably push the safety rules, and competitors will push the classifications rules - just look at all the discussion these events bring now.

Fastest street car drag racing started the exact same way. Cars running in the 9's and 10's with a few back half cars int he 8's. Now there are dozens of classes and the top cars are tube frame beasts with $50K+ engines and in the 6's. Time and publicity will bring out the really big money, and the little guys will leave unless they have some level ground. Running around turning expensive tires into dust and having your butt handed to you for your trouble gets old eventually. It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

[The Stickman]

A lot of people want to be unencumbered with rules, and it is a natural desire, but the highlighted part is the truth. If you think SCCA started out with a plan to impose silly rules and strangle competition, you are delusional. They have been down the same road these events are on, and all the "stupid" rules were made by and for the competitors. Increased safety and competition were the primary drivers. Racing big HP cars will eventually mean some big crashes. I have been around racing my entire life, and I have always been amazed at how quickly people forget the destroyed cars and injured drivers from accidents. I think an uncaged car has no business on a road course whatsoever, but people will still bitch about safety rules. I heard of three deaths at amateur driving events last year, and Im sure that is not all of them. Insurance and liability concerns will probably push the safety rules, and competitors will push the classifications rules - just look at all the discussion these events bring now.

Fastest street car drag racing started the exact same way. Cars running in the 9's and 10's with a few back half cars int he 8's. Now there are dozens of classes and the top cars are tube frame beasts with $50K+ engines and in the 6's. Time and publicity will bring out the really big money, and the little guys will leave unless they have some level ground. Running around turning expensive tires into dust and having your butt handed to you for your trouble gets old eventually. It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

I agree with what you are saying. But if what you are saying is true then making rules simply means those same people that will come in with a win at all costs mentality will build to the rules and I believe the cars will all start to look alike. I like the diversity of cars. And at RTTS we surely had that. I would not be opposed to more safety. But these are supposed to be street cars that we take to the track. And then the whole debate of a full cage in a street driven car comes up as to how safe that is. This is a very large can of worms to open.

[Tony_SS]

It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

What sounds nice about the RTT_ events is that it does not sound like it's all about the competition. It's about having fun flogging on your car on the course as a responsible adult without a book of rules and regulations. That sounds like a blast to me. And it's great to have that option.

[01badz28]

Generally speaking, if you have deaths at a parking lot autocross you have done something very wrong. The speeds are kept intentionally low, and the safety guidelines are such that it is approachable by a mass audience without the need to have things like roll cages, fire suppression systems and race suits. I've done every RTTH since an autocross was included, and they are safe. I don't think anyone is saying that we don't need to follow safety guidelines.

What this event doesn't need is a structured rule system, where you have an alphabet soup of classes like the SCCA. Part of the events charm is that everybody shows up and runs what they've got. Print off a 200 page rule and classing structure, and its no different than your standard SCCA event - and you lose the soul of the P-T event.

[The Stickman]

It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

Sounds easy enough. Just take the competition part out. Not sure I heard anyone at RTTS say they were there to win. Sure would have been nice for anyone to win. But I never got the vibe that was what people were there for. Don't think anyone would miss it to be honest.

[barraza]

Generally speaking, if you have deaths at a parking lot autocross you have done something very wrong. The speeds are kept intentionally low, and the safety guidelines are such that it is approachable by a mass audience without the need to have things like roll cages, fire suppression systems and race suits. I've done every RTTH since an autocross was included, and they are safe. I don't think anyone is saying that we don't need to follow safety guidelines.

I wasn't speaking about RTTH specifically, but since you mention it, there was a crash when they ran the autocross at the oval track. I didn't run that day because I had no desire to get on an oval track with my street car. It turned out relatively minor, but could have easily been worse. SCCA used to have guidelines about speeds, but I don't know if they still use them. The problem for them was that a 60mph course appropriate for a Miata became 100mph when done by a Z06. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it is not accurate to depict other race organizations as having made their rules to stifle fun. Fifty years ago the SCCA was all about fun, and the rules were minimal even by RTT_ standards. Things changed because they learned about safety and competition, not for some nefarious reasons.

[barraza]

Sounds easy enough. Just take the competition part out. Not sure I heard anyone at RTTS say they were there to win. Sure would have been nice for anyone to win. But I never got the vibe that was what people were there for. Don't think anyone would miss it to be honest.

I would call B.S.

Turn off the timers and you would have a mutiny.

Without the current tire rule, half the cars there would have been on R-compounds. Any talk about rules is all about people concerned about competition. Do you think the optima Challenge wasn't about competition?

I'm not saying the rules need to be anything overbearing, just some basics like a minimum weight, and the existing tire rules. Any car run for time must be owned by the driver. A year cutoff would be appropriate also. Get on a road course and everything changes though. High speed road course work should be done to current nasa/scca safety standards. Anything less is inviting a lawsuit.

[01badz28]

I wasn't speaking about RTTH specifically, but since you mention it, there was a crash when they ran the autocross at the oval track. I didn't run that day because I had no desire to get on an oval track with my street car. It turned out relatively minor, but could have easily been worse. SCCA used to have guidelines about speeds, but I don't know if they still use them. The problem for them was that a 60mph course appropriate for a Miata became 100mph when done by a Z06. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it is not accurate to depict other race organizations as having made their rules to stifle fun. Fifty years ago the SCCA was all about fun, and the rules were minimal even by RTT_ standards. Things changed because they learned about safety and competition, not for some nefarious reasons.

I'm not arguing with you about the purpose of the safety regs at all. They serve a purpose. Sometimes you can have an overzealous SS that can ruin your day, however.

I was there for that one. The thing about 411 is that SCCA Solo safety guidelines typically won't allow for an autocross to be run on a prepared race surface like 411. Nashville gets special dispensation to run on the oval, but they have to avoid the banked part of the oval where the walls are. Thats why ETRSCCA never ran at 411, and the events that were there were put on by other organizations without such considerations.

Every autocross accident that has involved serious property damage since I got started (2004) has usually involved the following: 1) Mustang, Camaro, or a Corvette (and the Chevelle you mentioned earlier); 2) Street tires; 3) Inexperienced and aggressive driver. Whenever you have a high performance car, you raise the risk of having an incident due to the increased speeds involved. The best an event organizer to do is make the course as safe as possible and have a plan in place if an accident takes place. You'll never be able to 'idiot proof' a motorsports events - you will just have a bigger idiot show up.

With respect to RTTH, we have several competitors (myself included) that run R-compounds. We just aren't competing for the trophies at the end of the day.