RTTH VII Rules/Ideas

[79-TA]

Sounds easy enough. Just take the competition part out. Not sure I heard anyone at RTTS say they were there to win. Sure would have been nice for anyone to win. But I never got the vibe that was what people were there for. Don't think anyone would miss it to be honest.

Forget the absolutist either-or arguments. The RTT events are a mix of competition and fun. There's no need to compromise either aspect for the sake of the other.

[barraza]

You'll never be able to 'idiot proof' a motorsports events - you will just have a bigger idiot show up.

With respect to RTTH, we have several competitors (myself included) that run R-compounds. We just aren't competing for the trophies at the end of the day.

That course at 411 was poorly designed. I know you will never idiot proof an event, but RTT_ events appeal to novice competitors, and course designers need to take that into consideration. Many of these cars have hugely more HP than at a typical event, and thus require more runoff room, and checks to insure speed doesn't get out of control. Especially if allowances are made for safety strictness.

The issue with R-compound rubber is to reduce the cost for everyone. Competitors shouldn't feel that they need special tires to compete.

I don't want to sound like I am criticizing these events because I'm not. I think they are a great way to introduce people to autocrossing. They are also a great way for people with older, heavily modified cars to compete, without being place in classes with racecars like they would be at a normal SCCA event. I'm just saying that eventually rules will have to be put in to keep things fun, instead of about who can spend the most money and hire the best driver. I also think there are huge differences between autocrossing and events at a real racetrack. You screw up at an autocross, you should have a bent ego or at most a bent fender. Screw up at the optima race or Road America, and without proper safety equipment - you may be dead.

[SLO_Z28]

FWIW 140 treadwear is still a real street tire. Since this is a BFG sponsored event, why not allow the BFG R1's? Its a great tire, and isn't any more dangerous than any other tire.

[79-TA]

^Yes, it is more dangerous. More grip = more cornering speed = more overall speed anywhere you might happen to have an incident.


While the R1's are 40 tw DOT legal tires, they are still R compounds and need a good warmup to get up to temperature to operate properly. They'll still offer great grip when cold, but if the driver has already learned the course with the tires up to temperature, going out on cold tires can catch one by surprise. It happens to the pros all the time. Trackday organizers always go out of their way to figure out who is running R compounds so they can remind them to take it easy on their first couple of laps.

Also, grippier tires tend to be less forgiving at the limit of grip. That is, they lose grip more suddenly. Part of this is that things are happening at faster speeds under greater loads. The other part is that is just the compromise for having more overall grip.


200 tw makes a lot of sense and is a really nice compromise. I understand the argument for 180 tw tires (this mostly affects those who want to run Ecsta XS's or AD08's) and I wouldn't be for or against a change to 180. 140 is too much though. I don't care how the SCCA defines it.

[Vegas69]

Say what you want, Bill isn't changing his mind. This thread is proof enough of why we don't need this getting to serious.

[01badz28]

That course at 411 was poorly designed.

Prior to the Chevelle going into the wall, the last car to hit a wall there was a 911 approximately 10 years prior. Considering both PCA and the SVT Cobra Club ran 3-5 events every year there (with the same course layout), I'd say two accidents in ten years is a pretty good safety record. Those events also had a good number of new and novice drivers, as autocross and track events is not the focus of either organization.

Motor racing at any level isn't safe, all you can do is try to mitigate the damages.

[The Stickman]

FWIW 140 treadwear is still a real street tire. Since this is a BFG sponsored event, why not allow the BFG R1's? Its a great tire, and isn't any more dangerous than any other tire.

Not sure I would want to run them on the street in the rain. Or for that matter anywhere in the rain.

[The Stickman]

Forget the absolutist either-or arguments. The RTT events are a mix of competition and fun. There's no need to compromise either aspect for the sake of the other.

I guess what I should have said was that it's ok to keep score just not make it count for anything. As long as nothing is up for grabs then most won't take it so serious they are building cars just to win an event.

[HectorM52]

One rule that really doesn't have a lot to do with the drivers, cars, tires, etc...is I think we should limit the proximity the spectators are to the racing at the RTTH event. I just have those videos of quarter-mile races that are going up the public street lined with people and all of the sudden the car veers off into the crowd and all you can see are flying bodies... makes me shudder just thinking about it.

Just something for everyone to ponder for the next 5.5 months leading up to RTTH.

[SLO_Z28]

Not sure I would want to run them on the street in the rain. Or for that matter anywhere in the rain.

Theyd do better than the eagle dragway specials I drove in the rain a few times >.< . I wouldnt want to drive them in the rain, but I wouldnt be afraid to either, theyd be OK.

[barraza]

Prior to the Chevelle going into the wall, the last car to hit a wall there was a 911 approximately 10 years prior. Considering both PCA and the SVT Cobra Club ran 3-5 events every year there (with the same course layout), I'd say two accidents in ten years is a pretty good safety record. Those events also had a good number of new and novice drivers, as autocross and track events is not the focus of either organization.

Motor racing at any level isn't safe, all you can do is try to mitigate the damages.

Actually, I think it was a nova that hit the wall, or was there another?

I would call any autocross that results in a car hitting a wall a colossal failure. Unless the accident was a result of a part failure. Simple driving errors shouldn't result in contact with walls in an autocross. The course design had a straight high speed section pointed directly at the outer wall of the oval. An appropriate design would have had a chicane of some type before getting out onto the oval. Just because no one hit it recently doesn't make it a good design. Yes, there is some risk in everything, but you don't design a autocross with a wall at the outside of a braking zone. It was a poor design.

[tazzz25906112]

Wow gang I thought Bill made himself pretty clear the last time one of these "lets consider changes/classes etc. threads came up"..... Bill's events are for fun, if he sees a danger it will be address without discussion I'm quite sure,,,,,, other than that enjoy the fun because as the old saying goes "if it ain't broken don't fix it".... Bill does a great job and the events are fun,,, stop period end of....

[protouring70]

Your right Albert. Bill has done this enough and he is looking out for everyones best interests and keeping it simple and fun at the same time. So everyone come and enjoy yourselves!!!!

Wow gang I thought Bill made himself pretty clear the last time one of these "lets consider changes/classes etc. threads came up"..... Bill's events are for fun, if he sees a danger it will be address without discussion I'm quite sure,,,,,, other than that enjoy the fun because as the old saying goes "if it ain't broken don't fix it".... Bill does a great job and the events are fun,,, stop period end of....

[1981silverz28]

Look at all the rules the different states have for you to be able to operate a motor vehicle on the highway and look at how many wrecks happen every minute . They DOT has very well paid engineers to design roads and expensive equipment to buid them and professionals to operate that equipment. AND ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN !!!!!!!!!!! Look at NASCAR and all its rules and INDY cars and thier rules AND THEY STILL HAVE ACCIDENTS . When Bill started RRTHs it was to get like minded car people together to socialize and have fun with the cars that they have built( or had built) . To say that the autocross was laid out wrong at the 411 is wrong . It was using what he had available .Billy Uttley hit the wall as a result of an accident , they happen all the time . And now Billy has one of the baddest Novas I've seen and can drive the wheels off it ! You can have one when you pull out of your driveway in the morning . Does the state rules prevent all accidents ? Are the roads "accident proof" ? Where in the he!! is peoples common sense? I don't have the car nor the driving skill to "compete " with Brian Finch , Kyle ,Stacey ,Bill Howell , Yancy Johns,Or most of the other guys at these events but I have just as much fun as they do . We need a few basic safety rules to keep us in line but when you get things too complicated these events will lose people . I was at the 1st RTTHs and have enjoyed watching it grow to what it is now and would hate to see it stall out with people building racecars with license plates just to compete.

[Atomic 67]

Great comments...this week I bought a new set of BFGs and it was not as simple as I thought it would, actually still need to have a wheel spacer made tomorrow to ensure no tire scrubbing at GoodGuys Columbus. I almost went with another brand because tires sizes were somewhat limited in the BFGs, but at the end of the day, I kept hearing one of Bill's soap box sponsor support speaches ringing in my skull...clearly too haunting to ignore. Granger, buy BFG...soooo I did. Bill will not be able to chant in the future"....cheater, cheater...180, bla, bla, bla..." Bill, I hope you show up in Columbus. My vote is keeping this as simple as possible...and I agree improving driving skills is the real time saver! Bill Albert see you at driving schoold in a few weeks.

[johngross]

If you want it perfectly safe, make the straightaways 12 foot long, the lanes 7 foot wide and add speed bumps, with huge cone penalties, and it will PROBABLY be safe. It just won't be any fun.

[vintageracer]

If you want it perfectly safe, make the straightaways 12 foot long, the lanes 7 foot wide and add speed bumps, with huge cone penalties, and it will PROBABLY be safe. It just won't be any fun.

Sounds like a challenging and very "technical" course!



As I continue to read the varied thoughts and ideas "I" believe the real safety issues are NOT with the autocross events but are with the Open Track/Road Course events. Big engines, heavy cars, in-experienced driver's, average brakes and limited safety equipment requirements will eventually result in a serious accident. It's coming at a Road Course event it's just a matter of time!

Just like back in the day (60's/70's) our type of cars are fast as Hell in the straightaways and slow and cumbersome in the turns. Nobody wants to get passed so it's "hammer down" on the straightaway's as fast as I can get the car going. OH CRAP! I'm and of the straightaway and NOW I have to stop and turn!!!!! Yes today the brakes and suspensions are better than way back when however see are still talking about 3,500-4,000 lb cars in most cases with more horsepower than back in the day and far LESS experienced driver's at the wheel!

Nobody likes rules and that includes me. RULES are necessary to protect YOU from YOURSELF!

Right now to run the Road Course events all you have to do is you pay to enter your car, bring your car & pass a half A$$ tech inspection and your golden to drive on the track at speeds that could be well beyond your ability to drive your car. This has to change! This ultimate change in the "rules" will not make a lot of people happy since the result will be to limit the type of car (level of preparation) and maybe limit the driver based upon experience (driver's school) that are allowed on the track. Even the 24 hours of Lemons group has better safety requirements for Road Course Track events than we do.

Yes the Lemon's guys are driving junk! From a safety requirements & safety equipment standpoint on a Road Course the Lemon's cars are much safer "Junk" than many of us in the PT group put out on the Road Course track!

[Dane Laney]

I will be joining you guys for the first time at RTTHs, and I have a couple of questions,, what are the rules, relulations, tires, classes, ext,: how soon can I find out for sure, before I buy something I can't use, Also, when I sighned up and paid on line, was I supposed to give my car number, what class my car is in, as I see there was discusion on this matter. I really feel lost now,, I am familiar with the events I run in, but not here,, would someone put me in the right direction so I'm not that unprepaired guy slowing down everyone and everything at this wonderfull event ????

[Tucks69]

If the rules are like last year, a 200 treadwear tire is the minimum. There is only 1 class everybody runs together. Bill supplied us with a decal with our number for the whole weekend. Basic safety rules secured battery, seatbelts, helmet, no loose items in the car. Our events are kinda laid back, we are all there to have a good time. Run the best times we can and improve our driving skills. I have been the last 3 years and look forward to it each year. I am sure Bill and Larry will chime in with the rules for this year. Welcome to the group!

[Bill Howell]

Guys, I am working on rules for all the events for next year now so we have the same rules regardless of where we run. As far as RTTHs go, 200 TW or greater has always been the rule and will continue. In the Spirit of Street, and IMO, it isn't a street tire if it is less than 200TW. Most tires with a smaller than 200 have Race compound also.
200 is a mark I put in the sand and until someone can convince me otherwise, that is where the mark will stay. I have heard all the arguements, and I have owned tires with TW100 (toyo888). I know from experience that you do not feel safe on those in the rain and since we are all about driving our cars, you need wipers and tires that can handle a rain storm. It also helps the novice driver get used to a track situation before they set up for track days and TW60 tires.
I have been accused of being told what to do from tire companies and that simply isn't true. Our tire supporter BFG offers KDWs at TW300. IF they were influencing this decision, don't you think the mark would be closer to their offering? Think about it.
This year I have done alot of track days and am to the point I am thinking about another set of wheels and some sticky tires for the charger, however, that said, all the RTT events will still be TW200.
I hope this clears things up for you.