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[wmhjr]

The ol' Poncho 'vert 'bird made it back to Ohio in one piece. I really had a blast!

- Jared

Were you able to track your vert without a cage or bar? Please say it's so!

[dropit69]

Yeah they allowed vert cars to drive course but were told to kinda keep it under control..and they are talking about making a cutoff limit for the year of car will prolly be 77 or so and older so Laine get that 72 ready..

[wmhjr]

If it stays that way, I WILL be there next year.

[WMCC Doug]

I had a blast again for the second year. I want to thank EVERYONE that was involved with making this event happen. Is Lane Automotive a class act, or what!?

[Subway]

Were you able to track your vert without a cage or bar? Please say it's so!

Yep, they had the 'verts in their own group, we were instructed to keep it 100% under-control... and I think everybody did.

Group included a Cobra, a Shelby Mustang and a Chevelle. I have not heard what the future 'vert rule plans are though.

[WMCC Doug]

..and they are talking about making a cutoff limit for the year of car will prolly be 77 or so and older ..

I, for one, hope they don't put this year restriction rule into effect for next year (or ever). I loved seeing the new muscle cars compete with the awesome pro-touring classic muscle cars. It's not like the event was overun with newer cars. We are witnessing the muscle car era all over again, lets not shun these new age muscle cars. Everyone can easily coexist. Cool cars are cool cars, no mater the year they were originally built.

And, besides, some of the vendors, including Lane Automotive, Hotchkis, Detroit Speed, just to name a few, sell parts for the newer iron too, so why alienate some of their clientel?

[Bill Howell]

Here is the deal with the Year of Car Rule as of right now. Some events are new and need to fill the venue, so pretty much allow any year car. Others, like RTTHs and Motorstate have a couple years under their belt and now have another problem. TOO MANY CARS registering. So, we have to come up with some way to limit the car count, versus adding more days to the event or else, no one will get enough runs in to feel it is worth the effort to come to the event. My thought is have a cut off of 25 or 30 years. At 30 years, next year we would be at 1981. I think we will always have a few newer cars, especially vendor cars at every event for exibition, but to keep it true to our roots, once the venue fills, we have to come up with limits. Don't forget, we are protouring, not camaro5. I am sure there are other events for those cars, but as we grow the protouring scene, we have to look at year limits.

[BonzoHansen]

"Don't forget, we are protouring, not camaro5."

FWIW, I'd love to see an event cut off based on 'generation'. Say any vehicle body/generation in production on or before 1972. So that lets in all C3 Vettes, 2nd gen f bodies, 1st gen monte carlos, etc. It's probably harder to manage than it sounds though.

[Chevrolaine]

Yeah they allowed vert cars to drive course but were told to kinda keep it under control..and they are talking about making a cutoff limit for the year of car will prolly be 77 or so and older so Laine get that 72 ready..

I hear ya buddy!! Workin on it!!

[Charley Lillard]

Maybe grandfather in people that were at the first events with newer cars.

[perple76]

Here is the deal with the Year of Car Rule as of right now. Some events are new and need to fill the venue, so pretty much allow any year car. Others, like RTTHs and Motorstate have a couple years under their belt and now have another problem. TOO MANY CARS registering. So, we have to come up with some way to limit the car count, versus adding more days to the event or else, no one will get enough runs in to feel it is worth the effort to come to the event. My thought is have a cut off of 25 or 30 years. At 30 years, next year we would be at 1981. I think we will always have a few newer cars, especially vendor cars at every event for exibition, but to keep it true to our roots, once the venue fills, we have to come up with limits. Don't forget, we are protouring, not camaro5. I am sure there are other events for those cars, but as we grow the protouring scene, we have to look at year limits.

I think this is a well-reasoned response and agree that some sort of cut-off needs to be implemented. They tried this idea with the Midwest Musclecar Challenge and then backed off of it after their pre-registration numbers fell well below expectations. I think someone said there were 86 cars registered for Motorstate. While I think that's totally awesome, if the numbers get higher than than next year you'll be greatly reducing the on-track time, which defeats the whole purpose of doing this.

In general, I have no qualms about being on track with newer camaros, mustangs, challengers, or even porsches and ferraris, but the plain truth is that I can do that virtually any weekend I want - there are tons of track day events occuring every weekend all across the country that have no year-based requirements - as long as it passes tech you can run. These are great events and I thoroughly enjoy my time there.

These musclecar events, though, are special. There is something very unique about that many vintage cars gathering in one place, at one time, and hanging it out on the track. I have been to several track events and at least three of these musclecar based events, and leave no doubt the musclecar events have an entirely different feel to them. Spectator turnout is much, much better too. People in general get a kick out of seeing these "old" cars strut their stuff.

I DO NOT like the 1972 cutoff. There are too many really nice cars out there that are post 72 to use such an early year break. Don't make the same mistake Goodguys did - you would be cutting out way too many good pro-touring rides. What would you do with all those 1973 Camaros out there?

Please, please, please don't forget the newbies, the beginners, and the guys who have never done anything like this before. When you start dealing in cut-offs, and year breaks, and complicated technical rules and requirements, you can quickly discourage some young kid (or even an old guy) who is wanting to try this but is apprehensive about diving in with both feet. We (being the whole pro-touring community) should be leary of passing any type of rule that might discourage a new guy from giving this a shot. We all benefit by giving those new guys a chance at roadcourse (or autocross) glory.

Personally, I think thirty years is a good place to start, which as Bill noted would be 1981 starting with next year's events. If you stick with thirty years, with each passing year you include a new year's generation worth of cars, so those guys that are close to the line might only have to wait a year or two before they can put their cars in the event. Gives you something to build for, something to look forward to.

Another idea would be to split the event in half and have one group run Autocross Saturday, and Roadcourse on Sunday, while having a second group do the opposite. Each group would simply swap locations between Sat. and Sunday. While this would be a logistical nightmare, if support for the event continues to grow it is an option that would give everyone an equal opportunity at track time in both aspects of the event. If this idea were used, I think the only fair way to do it would be to group people randomly - in other words don't put all the heavy hitters in one group and all the rest of us in another. Mix it up so you have a good mix of competitive cars at both locations, both days. I think that would be better for both the spectators and the participants. A more diverse playing field, so to speak.

I would love to say don't change a thing, because it's such a wonderful event, but I think the reality is that the numbers are likely to go up next year, not down. If the numbers continue to climb eventually you'll reach a critical mass where people will stop coming because there isn't enough track time to justify the expense and effort required to prep the car, haul it to the event, pay for hotels, food, gas, etc. Track time is what keeps people coming back, without it this would be just another car show.

Anyway those are my thoughts. Had a great time and hope to come back next year.

J

[Zanie]

I think Bill’s 1981 cutoff is an excellent idea.
It does everything the 72 generation cut-off does: That brings in all your 2nd gen camaros, and c3 vettes.
But, It will also let in all the guys with the 78-81 G bodies (Rubes needs to finish one of his Malibu wagons).
Plus maybe we’d see some oddities: a 1975 Dodge Magnum, a 1979 Pinto. 1977 Monza, etc.

I agree, it is super cool seeing old musclecars blasting around the track. Watching newer cars blast round doesn’t do much for me.

What a great event, I can’t wait for next year!

[wiedemab]

I was one of the guys running a "new" car - C5 Vette at the event. I completely understand the logic of putting a cutoff for year or however it is done.

Some serious up front thought needs to be put into what that cutoff is going to be and then stick with it. What would be frustrating to me is.............. let's just play out an example.

At this point in my life I can't afford to build a '69 Camaro or whatever. So lets say '81 is the cutoff and I sell my C5 and I build a '79 Fox body Fairmont or Malibu track car or whatever. Then the next year way too many '81 and older cars sign up and they move it back to '76. Or the opposite, the numbers are down and they let newer cars run again. I'm sure you get the idea.

Just my $.02, so take it for what it's worth.

[protouring70]

I knew this would be coming, but as we grow this is to be expected. So lets put alot of thought into this and make the right decision!!!! And I am 100% sure Bill has been looking at this with everyone in mind!!! He wants everyone to enjoy all of the events!!!!


"We are a family, just a really big family!!!"

[WMCC Doug]

I was one of the guys running a "new" car - C5 Vette at the event. I completely understand the logic of putting a cutoff for year or however it is done.

Some serious up front thought needs to be put into what that cutoff is going to be and then stick with it. What would be frustrating to me is.............. let's just play out an example.

At this point in my life I can't afford to build a '69 Camaro or whatever. So lets say '81 is the cutoff and I sell my C5 and I build a '79 Fox body Fairmont or Malibu track car or whatever. Then the next year way too many '81 and older cars sign up and they move it back to '76. Or the opposite, the numbers are down and they let newer cars run again. I'm sure you get the idea.

Just my $.02, so take it for what it's worth.

I agree. Several good points there. I would hate to see this event put in a Year cut-off rule. Yes, I'm one of the ones running a late model car too, (2002 Camaro, basically stock) so I guess that effects how I feel about it. I've attended (supported the event) both last year and this year, and would be disappointed to be left out in the future.

By next year, my '74 Z28 should be track ready, so I could still make it in, depending on the year cut-off. It's a nice car with some nice suspension upgrades, but dropping an LSX engine in it is just not in the budget, so with the old style, mildly modified (very streetable) 350 under the hood, my 2002 Camaro will probably still be faster. I had one person running up on my butt, and passing in no-passing zones, this year. I can only imagine how bad that could be with an even slower car.

I for one, love to see the modified old muscle cars run with the newer cars. It's nice to see the direct comparison. I guess I just like cars, from all time periods.

Maybe the cut-off needs to be a number, not a year? Once the 100 car registration point is reached, the event is closed. That way the most dedicated enthusiasts that register first, get in, and the procrastinators are left out?

Maybe the Friday and Saturday track days is the answer? You could accomodate more cars, not restrict the years, and get the same amount of track time when you combine both days?

I guess there's no clear answer that will make everyone happy. I know I had a great time, both this year and last year, even if my car was not as fast as most others.

Maybe Charlie's idea about "grandfathering in" newer cars that have already participated in this event is a viable option, as well?

[Danny Thomas]

This is a hard decision and Bill and I have discussed this. He and others are trying to protect our hobby as it grows and new problems arise. As I like a number cut off the best the year cut off also makes sense. My car will never be a top 10 car but I love the track time and friends we make. Whatever happens everyone wont be happy. We adjust and move on. I think all involve want to insure that all those that get to go get their monies worth. Mid State was a little pricey but with everything I got, it was so well worth it. Motor State was very reasonable for all that we received and again so well worth it. Scott what an awesome job yall did. . Lets all be supportive at whatever decisions sre made.

[Steve Chryssos]

No problem. I've been doing a little math and we're crunching a plan to accommodate 120 cars at next years Motor State Challenge.

New and Old.



Remember that the new cars make pro-touring cars look good. The mid engined, two turbo Ultima finished 3rd overall on the road course behind a coupla Camaros. The highest finishing production new car was Billy Utley's WRX in 7th overall on the road course. The highest placing vette was well into the double digits.

No new cars? No data.

Run Thru The Hills has a serious space problem, but with the SCCA's help, can spread out pretty good at the Motor State Challenge.

[Danny Thomas]

No problem. I've been doing a little math and we're crunching a plan to accommodate 120 cars at next years Motor State Challenge.

New and Old.

Remember that the new cars make pro-touring cars look good. The mid engined, two turbo Ultima finished 3rd overall on the road course behind a coupla Camaros. The highest finishing production new car was Billy Utley's WRX in 7th overall on the road course. The highest placing vette was well into the double digits.

No new cars? No data.

Run Thru The Hills has a serious space problem, but with the SCCA's help, can spread out pretty good at the Motor State Challenge.

I agree with the data support, but do not see where RTTH has a serious problem. Seems that Bill has a produced a very successful event otherwise it would not continue to grow. This hobby just has growing pains as we continue to grow. Its our one weekend to be some race driver that we never became. the hobby itself has evolved and adjustments have to be made to make the event successful, safe and competitive. There has to be certain standards and rules that carry over from each event otherwise we loose attendees because they can't afford to buy items, ie. tires to run with someone on a stickier tire than the 300's they have on their car now nor buy extra high dollar rims to put them on.

This is an event that is to cater to the backyard guy and not the guys who have money to spend for a professional build, even though they are also welcome and support needed. The event gets very expensive to attend, with travel, food, lodging and entrance fee. So we expect you guys to make the rules and adjustments that keeps this hobby affordable and fun.

I am sure that all the powers to be will work to make the right decisions and make adjustments as need be.I'm sure that this fourum will be used to get the general concenus and help with the decision making. So I encourage that all speak your minds so they will have some input. Steve you nor Bill have all the answers, but you both have a passion for it and are working to help it continue to be bigger and better. I am also sure that everyone won't be happy at whatever comes down, but you adjust and move on. I'm glad I'm not a powers to be...lol

[796spdbu]

Very Well Put,Danny!!

[Steve Chryssos]

I will clarify:
Run Thru The Hills cannot fit more cars. Turnout is at maximum capacity. That's straight from Bill's 2010 thread here. So it makes sense to limit the year of manufacture for cars at Pigeon Forge.

At the Motor State Challenge, we can make some changes that will accommodate a bunch more cars, so limiting year of manufacture is a bad idea.

Limiting year of manufacture is a serious decision if your name is Motor State Distributing. They probably sell more air intake kits for late model cars than the total gross sales for the entire pro touring industry combined.

The same holds true for many of our sponsors like Hotchkis and Baer. These companies are serious about selling parts for late model cars as well as old cars. ridetech, for example, showed up at the MSC with a sinister black 2010 Mustang.

That means rules for one event might vary from rules for another event.