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[Bill Howell]

Here is the deal with the Year of Car Rule as of right now. Some events are new and need to fill the venue, so pretty much allow any year car. Others, like RTTHs and Motorstate have a couple years under their belt and now have another problem. TOO MANY CARS registering. So, we have to come up with some way to limit the car count, versus adding more days to the event or else, no one will get enough runs in to feel it is worth the effort to come to the event. My thought is have a cut off of 25 or 30 years. At 30 years, next year we would be at 1981. I think we will always have a few newer cars, especially vendor cars at every event for exibition, but to keep it true to our roots, once the venue fills, we have to come up with limits. Don't forget, we are protouring, not camaro5. I am sure there are other events for those cars, but as we grow the protouring scene, we have to look at year limits.

[perple76]

Here is the deal with the Year of Car Rule as of right now. Some events are new and need to fill the venue, so pretty much allow any year car. Others, like RTTHs and Motorstate have a couple years under their belt and now have another problem. TOO MANY CARS registering. So, we have to come up with some way to limit the car count, versus adding more days to the event or else, no one will get enough runs in to feel it is worth the effort to come to the event. My thought is have a cut off of 25 or 30 years. At 30 years, next year we would be at 1981. I think we will always have a few newer cars, especially vendor cars at every event for exibition, but to keep it true to our roots, once the venue fills, we have to come up with limits. Don't forget, we are protouring, not camaro5. I am sure there are other events for those cars, but as we grow the protouring scene, we have to look at year limits.

I think this is a well-reasoned response and agree that some sort of cut-off needs to be implemented. They tried this idea with the Midwest Musclecar Challenge and then backed off of it after their pre-registration numbers fell well below expectations. I think someone said there were 86 cars registered for Motorstate. While I think that's totally awesome, if the numbers get higher than than next year you'll be greatly reducing the on-track time, which defeats the whole purpose of doing this.

In general, I have no qualms about being on track with newer camaros, mustangs, challengers, or even porsches and ferraris, but the plain truth is that I can do that virtually any weekend I want - there are tons of track day events occuring every weekend all across the country that have no year-based requirements - as long as it passes tech you can run. These are great events and I thoroughly enjoy my time there.

These musclecar events, though, are special. There is something very unique about that many vintage cars gathering in one place, at one time, and hanging it out on the track. I have been to several track events and at least three of these musclecar based events, and leave no doubt the musclecar events have an entirely different feel to them. Spectator turnout is much, much better too. People in general get a kick out of seeing these "old" cars strut their stuff.

I DO NOT like the 1972 cutoff. There are too many really nice cars out there that are post 72 to use such an early year break. Don't make the same mistake Goodguys did - you would be cutting out way too many good pro-touring rides. What would you do with all those 1973 Camaros out there?

Please, please, please don't forget the newbies, the beginners, and the guys who have never done anything like this before. When you start dealing in cut-offs, and year breaks, and complicated technical rules and requirements, you can quickly discourage some young kid (or even an old guy) who is wanting to try this but is apprehensive about diving in with both feet. We (being the whole pro-touring community) should be leary of passing any type of rule that might discourage a new guy from giving this a shot. We all benefit by giving those new guys a chance at roadcourse (or autocross) glory.

Personally, I think thirty years is a good place to start, which as Bill noted would be 1981 starting with next year's events. If you stick with thirty years, with each passing year you include a new year's generation worth of cars, so those guys that are close to the line might only have to wait a year or two before they can put their cars in the event. Gives you something to build for, something to look forward to.

Another idea would be to split the event in half and have one group run Autocross Saturday, and Roadcourse on Sunday, while having a second group do the opposite. Each group would simply swap locations between Sat. and Sunday. While this would be a logistical nightmare, if support for the event continues to grow it is an option that would give everyone an equal opportunity at track time in both aspects of the event. If this idea were used, I think the only fair way to do it would be to group people randomly - in other words don't put all the heavy hitters in one group and all the rest of us in another. Mix it up so you have a good mix of competitive cars at both locations, both days. I think that would be better for both the spectators and the participants. A more diverse playing field, so to speak.

I would love to say don't change a thing, because it's such a wonderful event, but I think the reality is that the numbers are likely to go up next year, not down. If the numbers continue to climb eventually you'll reach a critical mass where people will stop coming because there isn't enough track time to justify the expense and effort required to prep the car, haul it to the event, pay for hotels, food, gas, etc. Track time is what keeps people coming back, without it this would be just another car show.

Anyway those are my thoughts. Had a great time and hope to come back next year.

J

[Zanie]

I think Bill’s 1981 cutoff is an excellent idea.
It does everything the 72 generation cut-off does: That brings in all your 2nd gen camaros, and c3 vettes.
But, It will also let in all the guys with the 78-81 G bodies (Rubes needs to finish one of his Malibu wagons).
Plus maybe we’d see some oddities: a 1975 Dodge Magnum, a 1979 Pinto. 1977 Monza, etc.

I agree, it is super cool seeing old musclecars blasting around the track. Watching newer cars blast round doesn’t do much for me.

What a great event, I can’t wait for next year!

[wiedemab]

I was one of the guys running a "new" car - C5 Vette at the event. I completely understand the logic of putting a cutoff for year or however it is done.

Some serious up front thought needs to be put into what that cutoff is going to be and then stick with it. What would be frustrating to me is.............. let's just play out an example.

At this point in my life I can't afford to build a '69 Camaro or whatever. So lets say '81 is the cutoff and I sell my C5 and I build a '79 Fox body Fairmont or Malibu track car or whatever. Then the next year way too many '81 and older cars sign up and they move it back to '76. Or the opposite, the numbers are down and they let newer cars run again. I'm sure you get the idea.

Just my $.02, so take it for what it's worth.

[protouring70]

I knew this would be coming, but as we grow this is to be expected. So lets put alot of thought into this and make the right decision!!!! And I am 100% sure Bill has been looking at this with everyone in mind!!! He wants everyone to enjoy all of the events!!!!


"We are a family, just a really big family!!!"

[WMCC Doug]

I was one of the guys running a "new" car - C5 Vette at the event. I completely understand the logic of putting a cutoff for year or however it is done.

Some serious up front thought needs to be put into what that cutoff is going to be and then stick with it. What would be frustrating to me is.............. let's just play out an example.

At this point in my life I can't afford to build a '69 Camaro or whatever. So lets say '81 is the cutoff and I sell my C5 and I build a '79 Fox body Fairmont or Malibu track car or whatever. Then the next year way too many '81 and older cars sign up and they move it back to '76. Or the opposite, the numbers are down and they let newer cars run again. I'm sure you get the idea.

Just my $.02, so take it for what it's worth.

I agree. Several good points there. I would hate to see this event put in a Year cut-off rule. Yes, I'm one of the ones running a late model car too, (2002 Camaro, basically stock) so I guess that effects how I feel about it. I've attended (supported the event) both last year and this year, and would be disappointed to be left out in the future.

By next year, my '74 Z28 should be track ready, so I could still make it in, depending on the year cut-off. It's a nice car with some nice suspension upgrades, but dropping an LSX engine in it is just not in the budget, so with the old style, mildly modified (very streetable) 350 under the hood, my 2002 Camaro will probably still be faster. I had one person running up on my butt, and passing in no-passing zones, this year. I can only imagine how bad that could be with an even slower car.

I for one, love to see the modified old muscle cars run with the newer cars. It's nice to see the direct comparison. I guess I just like cars, from all time periods.

Maybe the cut-off needs to be a number, not a year? Once the 100 car registration point is reached, the event is closed. That way the most dedicated enthusiasts that register first, get in, and the procrastinators are left out?

Maybe the Friday and Saturday track days is the answer? You could accomodate more cars, not restrict the years, and get the same amount of track time when you combine both days?

I guess there's no clear answer that will make everyone happy. I know I had a great time, both this year and last year, even if my car was not as fast as most others.

Maybe Charlie's idea about "grandfathering in" newer cars that have already participated in this event is a viable option, as well?