Safety discussion split from Optima thread

[Yoda4561]

Like a few other peope said - if you can put that much money into your engine and suspension surely you can afford the small amount by comparison to make the car safe and quite frankly I think it enhances the look and value of the car.

Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that.

[wicked68]

Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that.

dont you have padding on your cages? back seats are tough - dont have much for you on that one / doors are no big deal - use a removable door bar system - I know its not a double x bar welded in but its better than nothing and does pass drag racing standards for most street car speeds

[Yoda4561]

dont you have padding on your cages? back seats are tough - dont have much for you on that one / doors are no big deal - use a removable door bar system - I know its not a double x bar welded in but its better than nothing and does pass drag racing standards for most street car speeds

I own street cars, not track cars. Cages seemed like the most awesome idea ever for a street driven car, increased chassis stiffness, impact and rollover protection in an accident. I wondered why everyone didn't run one on the street since they seemed to make so much sense. After a great deal of reading and asking questions from folks who know better than me, I'm pretty much conviced that unless you want to look like a nascar driver (helmet, restraints... may as well put on a firesuit while you're at it) every time you hop in the car to go to walmart or to work in the morning, cages are just going to get you hurt in most accidents.

That brings us back to this particular event, to me a street car therefore almost excludes the use of a full cage, and I haven't been conviced a roll hoop is a real safety device on these cars either. A harness without a cage is also an accident waiting to happen apparently. The methods to build a safe street car, and a safe track car do not always follow the same lines. The whole attraction of the event is that these are street cars, stuff that can be driven on a daily basis if the owner is so inclined, modern corvettes and nissan GTR's and the like alongside PT cars that can hang with them.

[wicked68]

The methods to build a safe street car, and a safe track car do not always follow the same lines. The whole attraction of the event is that these are street cars, stuff that can be driven on a daily basis if the owner is so inclined, modern corvettes and nissan GTR's and the like alongside PT cars that can hang with them.

so then you are saying that you should not drive a car that is safe for speed on the track on the street and as such then you should not drive a car that is safe for the street at speed on the track?

I dont necessarily agree that it is unsafe to drive a car with a padded cage on the street but mine is not a daily driver so I have not looked at that in depth other than to make sure my halo bars within striking distance of your noggin are padded.

I would definately not run one though unless you have gone to one piece seats preferrably with a seat back brace to minimize spinal injuries from rear collisions. I would also use smaller diameter chromolly bars and have a competent fabricator install them to keep them right up agains the upper door rail and roof line away from your head. Install sfi padding as well. Use a seat that has shoulder tabs on it to minimize side to side body movement and use a 5 point seat harness.

I also would not run at 130 mph on a track without this as it is more dangerous (popular opinion) with a 3 point belt and a stock seat and no roll bar.

[Yoda4561]

so then you are saying that you should not drive a car that is safe for speed on the track on the street and as such then you should not drive a car that is safe for the street at speed on the track?



I dont necessarily agree that it is unsafe to drive a car with a padded cage on the street but mine is not a daily driver so I have not looked at that in depth other than to make sure my halo bars within striking distance of your noggin are padded.

No that's not what I'm saying, to put it as best I can, streetcars don't need cages and harnesses and whatnot, if someone wants to run them that's their buisness, but a reasonably safe streetcar challenge event shouldn't require their use. The technical details I'll leave to the people responsible. I think if we want to continue the safety discussion it should be in a new thread, I'm not going to comment anymore in this one about it.

I loved the watching the event, and I'd like to see it continue (maybe with expanded coverage... way more fun than watching prepped track cars go loopty loop all day long) If it becomes more competitive class restrictions based on weight would be a great idea, otherwise just keep it an open playing field, and require that the car be registered and tagged for street use.

[hotrdblder]

whats the difference if you hit your head on a padded cage, or the steel roof in your hot rod? not much, either way it will get squashed, a properly installed cage with padding only add safety and easy street driving, you just need a cage builder who knows how to build a cage, sometimes its not the easy way,.

[wicked68]

No that's not what I'm saying, to put it as best I can, streetcars don't need cages and harnesses and whatnot, if someone wants to run them that's their buisness, but a reasonably safe streetcar challenge event shouldn't require their use. The technical details I'll leave to the people responsible. I think if we want to continue the safety discussion it should be in a new thread, I'm not going to comment anymore in this one about it.

I loved the watching the event, and I'd like to see it continue (maybe with expanded coverage... way more fun than watching prepped track cars go loopty loop all day long) If it becomes more competitive class restrictions based on weight would be a great idea, otherwise just keep it an open playing field, and require that the car be registered and tagged for street use.

actually that is a great idea to split some of this to a safety thread

I have already picked up a few things I am addign to my car as a result of the discussion (seat back brace)

[PT Sportwagon]

Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that.

It is called a 4 door wagon,

Tim

[Danny Thomas]

Your missing the point. This event is more than trying to make it fair for our PT type cars to compete against the likes of the Cobra and or pro drivers. It is about the journey and the bonds/friends you meet along the way. Making it some over governed rule heavy race will just take away from the intent and turn most people off.

I for one will be there each and every year they let me to try and close that gap between Mary and the Cobra.

Not sure why you made the comment about Mary having to apologize for being talented. She was well within the rules and is a great asset to this sport.

X2

[Blitz]

???

[wicked68]

anyone use a seat brace that is hard mounted to the harness bar but not to the seat and has padding between it and the seat to absorb shock?

[NOT A TA]

I don't think thats allowed by any sanctioning bodies. There are adjustable seat back braces so the seat sliders can work but nothing with shock absorbing material. Since the seat should not be hinged any movement of the seatback during impact might allow the bolts holding the seat to sliders or the floor to be broken or ripped out. Also movement of the seatback in relation to the harness bar would allow the shoulder harnesses to loosen at the moment of impact during a rear impact. .

[wicked68]

I don't think thats allowed by any sanctioning bodies. There are adjustable seat back braces so the seat sliders can work but nothing with shock absorbing material. Since the seat should not be hinged any movement of the seatback during impact might allow the bolts holding the seat to sliders or the floor to be broken or ripped out. Also movement of the seatback in relation to the harness bar would allow the shoulder harnesses to loosen at the moment of impact during a rear impact. .

thanks for the clarification. good point.

[barraza]

Soon as someone figures out how to make a street safe (no helmet required) cage, that lets me use the back seats and doors, I am ALL over that.

There are definitely issues on the street with cages, but how big of a problem are they? No one seems to have any data, just conjecture. You absolutely don't want your head contacting a bar, but how much more dangerous is a bar than the steel reinforced top structure? No one that I can find has done any tests.

Some cars could easily keep a cage outside the potential head impact area, some can't. Ever wonder why most race car drivers tend to be little guys? I can barely fit in a 2010 camaro without a helmet, there would be no chance of me racing one with a cage.

I think the minimum for road course events where speeds got as high as they did at the optima challenge should be a 4 point bar, racing seat and 5 pt harness. It could even be a bolt in bar. The total cost would be minuscule, compared with the other costs involved

[John Wright]

I'm on the fence about the roll bar in a street car....I like the idea of chassis stiffness and such, but I don't want to have to wear a helment to drive on the street...that would be against the law here in Va anyway. I don't want a busted melon either, nor to have one of my kids injured from riding in the back seat and faceplanting into that rear bar behind the driver's seat during a quick stop.

[hotrdblder]

with a roll bar comes 4/5 point harness's, and other safety items, if your in the car, the harness is on, if you have kids install harness's inthe back seat, not only will the cage protect you more, but you will not be thrown about in the car in an accident.

what do you think happens to your kids in back with a lap belt on, and a front or rear impact?

cage it, pad it correctly and install harness's. cam lock harness's probably take 8 seconds more to put on then a reg seat belt

[Vegas69]

Who wants to drive around on the street locked into your seat? I knew I would only use the lap belt so I opted for my own 3 point setup. If I decide I need race belts then I'll have both.

[The Stickman]

It is called a 4 door wagon,

Tim

Hey I resemble that remark.. I actually thought the best solution for me as I have a wagon is a cage that is behind me. Basically a rollbar behind me so I can safely use a harness. And a rollbar behind the rear seats for the rear passengers so they have more than lap belts. And then connect them with bars. And have down tubes angled front from the front bar and rear from the rear bar. This way I won't slap my head in a side impact on a cage. And I rarely if ever carry rear passengers so they would still have ease of access but would still have to deal with the overhead bars.

[Mkelcy]

I've always taken Chicane67's advice on cage kits in street cars to heart: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...72&postcount=8 And I think a lot of his points likely apply to any caged car on the street.

In relevant part:

Under high G loading the human body becomes a rag doll and is uncontrollably limp... and its limp enough to stretch and contort beyond your imagination. If you feel that you can over ride the physics involved... you have just become my hero.

The problem with kit cages is... that with the already limited space in your interior... it becomes even more sparse. And unless you are sitting 10 inches away from any tube, padded or not, and/or you are strapped in correctly... my bet is that your head will crack open like an egg. Custom cages can be built with this in mind and you can put tubes in places where no kit cage could even think about. You can maximize driver space because you do not have to follow the confines of the particular kit design. And believe me... even an inch difference can make the difference between life and death.

Now the misconception about padding. What do you really think the padding is really for ?? And how much energy do you think an inch of multi density foam (not to mention the junk sold without SFI cert) can really absorb when one of your body parts has been uncontrollably accelerated toward it at 65+G ?? FWIW... the padding is for low speed impact... not 65+G. (65G is about the common impact G load of typical accident.)

Unless you are in a full containment seat wearing your helmet and having your belts cinched down properly... I can pretty much guarantee the individual will sustain some injury outside that of a "fender bender". Does the idea of a better seat and restraints improve your chances ?? Yup... it sure does. That is the whole idea behind full containment seating and the newer materials being used in restraints. If your head, rib cage and legs are surrounded with minimal gap... your body has less room to accelerate and less probability of injury.

I'd love the chassis stiffening a cage could provide, but I won't risk my life while driving to the track for it.

[hotrdblder]

lol, if you get in a bad enough accident where you contort and wack your head on the roof etc, then with a cage or no cage your gonna be hurt bad, period.
No harness's on track days is stupid, flailing around in your car trying to use steering wheel as leverage, not smart and def not fast, when i race i have the lightest touch on the steering wheel, when you do endurance racing etc you learn how to be easy and smooth on the wheel or you will wear yourself out in 25 mins driving 9/10th, 10/10ths been there done that.