Safety discussion split from Optima thread

[Jim Nilsen]

I'm on the fence about the roll bar in a street car....I like the idea of chassis stiffness and such, but I don't want to have to wear a helment to drive on the street...that would be against the law here in Va anyway. I don't want a busted melon either, nor to have one of my kids injured from riding in the back seat and faceplanting into that rear bar behind the driver's seat during a quick stop.

So if I get this right, you have to wear a helmet for a motorcycle in Va. but you can't wear one while driving your car?

[John Wright]

Jim, I'm not certain of the reasoning.
Periphial vision slightly impaired? I dunno, just a guess.
Helmets are mandatory for motorcycle riders though...LOL

[Jim Nilsen]

I've always taken Chicane67's advice on cage kits in street cars to heart: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...72&postcount=8 And I think a lot of his points likely apply to any caged car on the street.

In relevant part:



I'd love the chassis stiffening a cage could provide, but I won't risk my life while driving to the track for it.

It would be impossible to drive my car from home to the track and be safe at the track. You can't go on the long hauls at events either if you have a caged car in your opinion.
They make SFI approved padding that is the only way to go. In the test I have read ,the regular foam padding mostly sold everywhere will give no more protection than the bar itself in a hard impact. It will just split and is only good for parking and looks. The SFI padding will slow the impact down according to the force applied, a lot of physics invloved in good padding.

I am also with Jake on the fact that the roof sides will be as hard and as dangerous as the cage bar, you also have more time to gain impact speed the farther from your head and regular car belts are not as good as harness belts. When an accident happens you never know how and when and what angle it will come from. I believe hands down that the cars with cages and the correct belts are safer no matter what. if they weren't they wouldn't be required by the racing sanctioning bodies.

I have hit my head on my vent windows but I still won't remove them. I have hit my head on the roof while getting in my car several times over my 52 years but I don't cut it off. Not paying attention and being careless is the biggest safety issue of all no matter what you do or have. Drive defensively and you will avoid being hit, I have stopped at green lights to avoid the guy that ran the red one, everyone in the car asked why I was stopping until the idiot went thru.
Pay attention and be sensible, if I worried about things as much as some of you are ,I wouldn't leave the house and would slip and fall in my non handicapped approved bath tub and shower. Those bars in the bathroom are like a cage in your car when safety is concerned, think about it ? Do you think you shouldn't put them in because you might hit your head on them?

[Jim Nilsen]

Jim, I'm not certain of the reasoning.
Periphial vision slightly impaired? I dunno, just a guess.
Helmets are mandatory for motorcycle riders though...LOL

The people who made the law just couldn't handle the racing look and just had to think you were up to no good.:bsjerk:

[Jim Nilsen]

Chicanes thread is about improperly installed cages,seat restraints and improper padding more than anything else. Read it closer and interpret it for what it really says. It is very good knowledgeable advice to consider when having a cage in a street car and does not imlpy that a street car should not have a cage.

[Mkelcy]

They make SFI approved padding that is the only way to go. In the test I have read ,the regular foam padding mostly sold everywhere will give no more protection than the bar itself in a hard impact. It will just split and is only good for parking and looks. The SFI padding will slow the impact down according to the force applied, a lot of physics invloved in good padding.

From the Pegasus Auto Racing Supply site:

Note: SFI-rated foam padding is designed to prevent a helmeted head from contacting a solid object. It is very stiff and does not give except in hard impacts.

Emphasis added.

If I wanted to be safe, as you've apparently determined, I wouldn't drive a 40 year old car with, at best, poor crash worthiness. I'm not trying to avoid risk, I'm trying to avoid what, in my opinion, is stupid risk.

I've watched some crash videos since this thread started and remain convinced that hard metal tubing within a foot or so of my helmetless head isn't a good idea. You've reached a contrary conclusion.

[Jim Nilsen]

From the Pegasus Auto Racing Supply site:

Emphasis added.

If I wanted to be safe, as you've apparently determined, I wouldn't drive a 40 year old car with, at best, poor crash worthiness. I'm not trying to avoid risk, I'm trying to avoid what, in my opinion, is stupid risk.

I've watched some crash videos since this thread started and remain convinced that hard metal tubing within a foot or so of my helmetless head isn't a good idea. You've reached a contrary conclusion.

I've lived life long enough to know I would rather die from a car accident than at the hands of doctors and cancer. I just lived a good healthy life and all of a sudden it was there like a traffic accident.
I have been in a few accidents in cars and on bikes and can tell you that it would have made no difference if I had a cage or not I would not have hit my head.
If the accident is that bad I would rather be dead than live a miserable life at the hands of doctors!!!

BAD ATTITUDE? maybe but it is my life. My doctors told me I was signing my own death sentence when I stopped treatments early. they couldn't see the cancer anymore, didn't know how come it left so quickly and never took into account the self treatments I gave myself as any possiblilty that it might have been that. My family doctor told me I was one smart guy to listen to my body and my own reasoning because they were slowly killing me to kill the cancer. I am much smarter and healthier than they wanted me to be when they were done about both life and what can happen. Live life ,don't fear it. Do what you can to be safer and that doesn't always mean that it doesn't contain risk.

I have the cage because it really holds the car together and will protect me better from lower level accidents more than none at all. It is also required in some classes of racing when the speeds are high. And as far as the SFI padding you bet it is hard but it is safer and I will be wearing a helmet as required when that time probably comes.

We could debate this forever with all types of logic , maybe I have already hit my head too many times in cars without cages but the bottom line is to be careful or stupid stuff and uncaring people will get you.

When the wife rolled the S15 pickup she hit her head on the rear view mirror and the roof and pillar damn near hit her the shoulder harnes damn near tore her apart. If there would have been a cage as good as the one in my car and the harness would have been as good she would have been better off. I worked with a guy who saw a pickup truck shoulder harness take a guys head off, he won't wear a shoulder harness for anyone now. He has been ticketed and goes to court with the eveidence and the judges let him go.

I've said enough I hope for everyone to make their own choice and the smart choice is the one you can live with in the end.

[Jim Nilsen]

Wouldn't it be great if someone came out with a padding for street use cars that was both SFI padding inside a softer more functional outside for no helmet impacts ?

It really seems that there might be enough people to market such a product now?

[NOT A TA]

You guys may find the discussion about street driven cars with cages/bars and the multiple types of SFI rated padding including dual density SFI available in this thread interesting. http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/for...r/14131/page1/

[Yoda4561]

Wouldn't it be great if someone came out with a padding for street use cars that was both SFI padding inside a softer more functional outside for no helmet impacts ?

It really seems that there might be enough people to market such a product now?

A market maybe, but without significant (expensive) crash testing I doubt any manufacturer wants to take the risk of a lawsuit by marketing "street safe roll bar padding".

[Jim Nilsen]

A market maybe, but without significant (expensive) crash testing I doubt any manufacturer wants to take the risk of a lawsuit by marketing "street safe roll bar padding".

I was thinking street friendly not street safe. There is nothing really at risk legally with all the disclaimers they put on everything we already have. Making the streets safe in any vehicle would require a whole lot more than just equipment for cars, operators are the biggest cause of accidents in cars just like guns and any other dangerous equipment.

I would just be nice to not have to improvise on our own and make it more tidy, I can most certainly add any kind of padding over the top of the SFI pad to make it more exit and entry friendly.

Impact testing is pretty much straight forward as a drop ball and g meters.Not really high tech or that expensive for a big player in the game.

[wicked68]

this post from the grassroots site was pretty funny

"
In reply to JeepinMatt:
You're joking Matt. Despite being the owner/driver of both a 1/2 caged E30 M3(no back seat occupants) and 1/2 caged 7clone as streetable track rats, I'm going to be thinking "OMG! an unsafe caged yellow CJ!" when it is occupied by a single shirtless young male driver and 3 Nubile bikini'd females. It transcends this discussion.
m"

[wicked68]

I am definately going to mount a seatback brace in my car after all this reading. I am also going to go back and make sure it is very properly mounted at the base and correctly also.

I may start using a small bump cap or non full faced helmet if I drive it on the street - which I dont do too much of anyway.

I think realistically the cars that are really nice anyway are not invovled in day to day accidents in traffic like most cars - they are driven more carefully and drivers around them are more cognizant of them as well which would reduce their collision risk.

[Yoda4561]

Normally true, but it only takes one time, and sometimes unavoidable even if you're paying attention. Taking reasonable steps to minimize injury in the event that happens is always a good thing, it's just that some folks have different ideas of reasonable This thread has warmed me up a little to a 4 point roll bar with that 2 layer padding, maybe even a harness setup for track use (along with 3 points for daily driving) If I do that though I'll definately need to look into safer, non-back breaking seats

[Jim Nilsen]

Normally true, but it only takes one time, and sometimes unavoidable even if you're paying attention. Taking reasonable steps to minimize injury in the event that happens is always a good thing, it's just that some folks have different ideas of reasonable This thread has warmed me up a little to a 4 point roll bar with that 2 layer padding, maybe even a harness setup for track use (along with 3 points for daily driving) If I do that though I'll definately need to look into safer, non-back breaking seats

Matt, bowtie67 has both 3 point and harneses in his 69 Camaro and it was really nice for the ride to and from RTTH5. Not having the restraint to move for things and the ability to know it would lock up when needed is all in the way comfort comes to the Pro-Touring part.

I really liked the Jeep thoughts.
Having ridden in a very capable cornering fiberglass Jeep with no doors or top and just that 4 point makes the seat belt seem ,well kind of scary. The guy who owned it (all steel before the crash)drove it off a cliff in the fog and he was thrown from it thru a bikini top because he wasn't wearing his belt. It was a one in a million chance but if he had the belt on he would have been dead. The windsheild was smashed down to the hood and the roll bar was bent down to the lowback seat. If he would have been in the seat, oh boy. It was one in a million but it makes you wonder that if it was his time to go he would have been strapped in. I was always thinking that if the Jeep rolled on its side I could have seen my head bounce off the road. It is a lot like a motorcycle where you sometimes want to get as far from that thing as possible when you go down and sometimes it is better to stay with it. You have to decide in a split second.

Best thing is don't get in accidents and remember when it is your time to go you will have no control over it. That's why so many people survive suicide, an accident you make happen.

Crazy world when you come right down to it !

I think most all of us are doing the best we can for ourselves to be as safe as possible and the tech guys will make sure of it at the track, but it is up to us on the street.

May God be with us all when accidents happen.

Don't drive in fog ever if you can help it!!!

[Jim Nilsen]

this post from the grassroots site was pretty funny

"
In reply to JeepinMatt:
You're joking Matt. Despite being the owner/driver of both a 1/2 caged E30 M3(no back seat occupants) and 1/2 caged 7clone as streetable track rats, I'm going to be thinking "OMG! an unsafe caged yellow CJ!" when it is occupied by a single shirtless young male driver and 3 Nubile bikini'd females. It transcends this discussion.
m"

I'm thinking at that point, Safe sex might save your life sooner,lol

[NOT A TA]

Matt, bowtie67 has both 3 point and harneses in his 69 Camaro and it was really nice for the ride to and from RTTH5. Not having the restraint to move for things and the ability to know it would lock up when needed is all in the way comfort comes to the Pro-Touring part.

It is a lot like a motorcycle where you sometimes want to get as far from that thing as possible when you go down and sometimes it is better to stay with it. You have to decide in a split second.

Best thing is don't get in accidents and remember when it is your time to go you will have no control over it. That's why so many people survive suicide, an accident you make happen.

Crazy world when you come right down to it !

I think most all of us are doing the best we can for ourselves to be as safe as possible and the tech guys will make sure of it at the track, but it is up to us on the street.

May God be with us all when accidents happen.

Don't drive in fog ever if you can help it!!!

I think you're right about some of the people trying to build safe cars Jim. However there's a lot of people who want the performance capabilities and looks but don't want the inconvienence or expense of safety equipment. They can't actually compete at dragstrips or sanctioned Land Speed events because they can't pass tech. They're gonna test their cars limits on the street in a less controlled environment where the risks and consequences are much higher. Funny how they buy the newest coolest wheels but say they can't afford a rollbar.

The general rule of thumb is 5-6 point harness with solid seat and roll bar/cage---or----3-4 point harness/belt with hinged seats even if the seats are heavily bolstered and refered to as "racing" seats with no cage/bar. Mixing creates opportunity for increased injuries.

If you have a bar or cage you don't want the seat to break like a hinged seat is supposed to do and you don't want to be able to move far enough for your head to strike the tubing. A three point with a bar or cage will allow your body to fly around in the car too much striking the tubing. Some guys run a 4 point harness with ASM with no bar and hinged seats at track events to hold them in the seat better and a 3 point on the street for ease of egress and more movement to turn around while backing etc.

Arm and leg restraints are required at a lot of events (LSR) starting at about 135 MPH because arms and legs break when they smack the tubing. Thats why the cars have padding anywhere the limbs could hit when the harness streatches on impact. Also at that speed point door nets, fire systems, race suits, etc. are also required.

Tech at most of the events I've been to isn't as thorough as you'd think they would be. I'm in slow classes or entry level driver education stuff. HPDEs at road courses require you to do your own vehicle inspection prior to showing up at the track and they usually check your helmet date and give your car a quick once over at tech inspection looking for blatant stuff. If your car is street safe you're good at HPDEs except converts which need a bar. Sanctioned Land Speed Races are more thorough and they spend more time examining things. If you're going to someplace like the ECTA get their book and make sure you understand whats necessary if you plan on going over 135 MPH. The unsanctioned Land Speed Races I've been going to they glance at my car from 20' away, check my helmet date, (they don't have any real tech rules)and let everyone whatever speeds they can. Drag races I've been to have been from one extreme to the other. Some inspectors have made safety recommendations (which I did after the race) and only once did I get booted by tech (no neutral safety switch) which I fixed at the track and then ran.

I had motorcycles for most of my life and raced BMX. I've never rode out a slide on a motorcycle but I've ditched a couple dirtbikes. Crashed BMX bikes a lot racing,streetriding, and dirt jumping, worst was a busted spleen. Crashed my mountain bike on the street last night, no safety equipment because I was "only" going over to the machine shop. Was fooling around wheelieing at speed doing "bump jumps" on driveway ramps and hit something in the dark. No helmet, pads, or gloves. Luckily, I didn't smack my head but my palms are raw with roadrash. I'm an idiot. I know better, never ride without the protective equipment! I'm getting too old to be crashing on tar without equipment (might break a hip!). It's when you least expect things to happen that they do.

Thats why you need to be very cautious on the street in the cars prepped for track use. It's easy to let your guard down a little. On track you're very attentive to everything thats happening and there's no cell phones, stereos, etc to distract your concentration. On the track you're focused on mirrors, corner workers, gauges, and you're going very fast. Driving on the street seems so slow and boring in comparison that it's easy to let your guard down just like I did on my mountain bike last night.

[jackfrost]

The general rule of thumb is 5-6 point harness with solid seat and roll bar/cage---or----3-4 point harness/belt with hinged seats even if the seats are heavily bolstered and refered to as "racing" seats with no cage/bar.

this seems like a pretty good guideline.

but, is there such a thing as a 3 or 4 points harness that can be correctly installed withOUT a harness bar?

[Yoda4561]

3 points are factory lap and shoulder belts, I think there's the schroth(somethingorother) that's doesn't require a bar.

[Jim Nilsen]

I found this and thought I would post it.

www.apexperformance.net

They have dual durometer roll bar padding from BSCI.

looks like the ticket for the street and track.