The Next Generation. 3G T.A.

[CSG]

IIRC a ford engineer had told me to stay around 1.2 HTZ, seems close to the 1.1 but I don't have an understanding of how that .1 actually plays out in the real world.

[SSLance]

I think we will see more 3rd gens and G-bodies very soon.

I agree Rob...and can't wait.

[RobNoLimit]

We're waiting for a few parts, so we are bouncing around a bit. Got to keep moving. Since the project is somewhat unconventional up to this point, we see no reason to go 'normal' now. Our exhaust plan is to route the exhaust (heat) out and under the rockers, then in and under the diff and out the back of the car. The OE rocker is plastic, so we made some aluminum rocker skirts, these are just a bit wider than the originals. This gave us just enough room to fit a 2 1/4" x 4" oval tube tucked under the rocker, with the bottom flat and flush with the bottom of the chassis. We are building the headers as well, but I started with the side tubes to get a target to aim the collector to. The side tubes consist of the oval tube, an oval 90 bend, and a transition piece from oval to 3" round. The only way I could 'lift' the front turn was to slice/pull/weld. But, it came out pretty nice, and I don't think it will harm the flow. Anytime you weld stainless tubing, you should gas purge the inside. (you tube) the results are much better. Once the side tubes were fabbed, we connected the collector and started fitting primary tubes.

[RobNoLimit]

All of the exhaust material came from Vibrant Exhaust. The header flanges are 3/8" thick, OK, a little heavy, but the shouldn't leak, so it's worth it. The primary tubes start 1 3/4" and then step to 1 7/8". The collector and V-Band are 3". There are some compromises. The primary tubes are a little shorter than desired, at appx 17". This will effect the torque curve a bit, but the trade off in heat management is worth it (we think).

Keith's current car, Velocity, weighs in at 3540 lbs, and runs a crate 525 LS3. And, it's pretty competitive. That's 6.7 lbs/HP. If we put the same motor in the 'Bird, that we expect to weigh around 2600 lbs, that would be about 4.9 lbs/HP. That would have the same power to weight ratio as if we put 715 HP in Velocity. So, if we give up a few here or there to get a better all around car, it's a net win. We plan on a full belly pan, so exhaust in the tunnel is a heat generating nightmare. Just look at some other current builds. Fuel plumbing, oil lines, brake lines and wiring all get taxed from the excess heat, and we don't want the problems.

[RobNoLimit]

The passenger side has it's own criteria. The oil tank is in the corner, and we have to be careful of the distance for heat. Eventually, we will bu using some additional heat barriers, like aluminum panels and products from DEI and such. Yes, the oil tank is up front. Our weight plan says this is the best location. I have never been a big fan of 30 feet of oil line anyway, and again, it keeps heat out of the rest of the car. We'll have plenty to keep us warm, I'm sure of it. Once the exhaust is past the drivers compartment, it will move back inboard, and head back under the axle bells. We will build one muffler in the back with a single outlet. Keeping the car under 92db at WOT is a must, so we will use all of the tricks we know.

[SSLance]

Nice work on the headers and exhaust Rob!!

And thanks for the sneak peak at the front suspension as well.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Are the tabs near the dry sump tank for the shock? Also, what is the tool laying beside the header on the bench with the splines in it for? Always like your builds, keep the info coming!

[FlyDoc]

I like this build!
it fallows what i would like to do with a 3rd gen, fallowing the tragic end to my car in Hawaii.
I was planning a C6 type suspension, not sure of type of differentials, i like the quick change direction. I am unsure on what way to go with a trans, auto-manual, C6 out back or in conventional location, but I want to go AWD, so placing the transfer case front diff. engine setback and driveshafts would all create there own challenges. I also have researched adapting an ABS system from an OEM, I have did found a company that sells ABS systems but they are supper pricey!

[jlcustomz]

Definitely can appreciate all the planning & engineering going on here. At the levels builds have gotten to these days it's a good thing to push way further ahead of the average stuff.
As far as loosing a little torque from shorter header tubes, that could even be a positive thing @ 2600 lbs weight which could also play well with a higher revving engine combo.


Thinking & working way outside the box can be a lonely place at times, but the breeze you feel from the freedom it gives you sure feels good.

[RobNoLimit]

Are the tabs near the dry sump tank for the shock? Also, what is the tool laying beside the header on the bench with the splines in it for? Always like your builds, keep the info coming!

HAHA, not much of a 'tool'. It's an IRS CV carrier (scrap), but, it's heavy and it works awesome to set header tubes on to weld. Poor people have poor ways. Use what you can. Yes, the tabs are the chassis side shock mounts.

[RobNoLimit]

Thinking & working way outside the box can be a lonely place at times, but the breeze you feel from the freedom it gives you sure feels good. Nice thought. Thanks.

[cornfedbill]

Thinking & working way outside the box can be a lonely place at times, but the breeze you feel from the freedom it gives you sure feels good. Nice thought. Thanks.

But would you do it any other way?

[RobNoLimit]

More exhaust picts. The pass side gives you a good look at where the exhaust runs, and how it fits the body. The drivers side shows the new lower rocker, fabbed from .090 5052 alum. These are the same height as the OE, although straight on the bottom, and are a little bit wider than the OE, about 1" per side. From the underside you can see how the oval tube is flush. Lots of other stuff to see as well.

[RobNoLimit]

More exhausting. Top down look in the back shows the routing in and under the CV stub shafts, then back to the muffler. This external routing does not offer placement of a "X" or "Cross-over", but, we are using a single merged muffler. Length of the exhaust before the muffler may tend to produce a more 'pulsing' sound, so we are hoping that a large single muffler will smooth out the sound and keep the noise down. The large single oval outlet will fit into the new trimmed rear bumper. There are rails on the bottom of the muffler box to add diffuser panels to.

First tag on the car. I'll send a shirt to the first one who can ID the quote.

[andrewb70]

Rob,

You guys are killing it with this build. I don't know much about suspension geometry, but from what I can tell, the level of creativity is certainly very high.

I am a sucker for driveline components and I really dig the quick change center with the modern Rzzepa CV joints. Hopefully you're working with Frank at the DriveShaft Shop for some custom rear axles. I would also encourage you to push further and utilize a dual CV driveshaft. I realize that this is a race car and NVH is a secondary concern, but anytime that vibration can be reduced, that will contribute to component longevity.

Andrew

[craigs73]

this is amazing and seeing these 3rd gens done makes me want one at this point

[RobNoLimit]

Keith was here yesterday and we spent some time going over the car and had a 'measuring session'. With the seat in the car he climbed in and sat in there for an hour and a half or so. We set in floor panels and mocked up pedal placement and steering wheel placement. I have my own thoughts on where they should be and they also need to fit the driver and be comfortable and workable. Space is a premium so we have to be careful. Even with driving shoes on Keith feet get a little tangled in Velocity so we are working on the spacing to cure that. But, we can't go too far apart as we still need the ability to left foot brake or heal/toe when needed. The cut parts are a first round set of parts to set the column and pedals. - all were revised after the test fit. Yes, tape can be used as a clamp.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Was it JFK talking about going to the moon?

[RobNoLimit]

This will be the layout. I had a Wilwood firewall mount pedal set, and we did try to make use of it, but in the end, it was too much of a compromise. The ratio is not exactly what we wanted, pedals didn't fit as nice as we would like and getting to the masters would be outside of our maintenance window. SO, custom fab it is. If you looked in the last set of picts, you may have noticed the manual rack. Being sick and tired of pumps,pulleys,belts,hoses,coolers,heat and leaks, we are not using conventional P/S. We are using an EPAS assist motor on the column input side. Again, more fab. The 3rd gen is from one of the guys at Currie ent. Looks pretty cool. And a pict from last years Chevy Trucks 100 Celebration in Ft Worth. We were invited down to do Truck Auto-X demos for the GM top brass and the media. It was a pretty nice deal.

[Kcorrigan2]

When we (Rob and I) first started talking about this build we had to decide on a build platform. I wanted a car that meant something to me and had great chactacteristics. We wanted something that compete on road courses, standing mile (Texas Mile), autocrosses, time attack...etc, etc...and be ok to drive on the street. The first new car I ever bought was a 1985 TransAm. That was a beautiful car with the tuned port injection...I put a lot of tires on that car!
I considered an IROC, which I love, but we know everyone will be doing that. Firebirds have always been the under-appreciated GM sports car, IMHO. The car has the lowest CF (slippery), came designed with ground effects...and they are cheap to find in less than desirable state...perfect for carving up. Not like Velocity!
So, we decided to take this car “as far as we could” No normal thinking here...let’s take the best of all Motorsports and build a car that looks great and will compete with anything anywhere. The engine will evolve as my driving skills allow it to and will surely end up on KILL...but we will start conservative so I get really good in the car before adding power.
The engineering that Rob has done on this car is just plain awesome...just look at Hellboy. That truck is now what...7 years old and still is capable of winnng events...and this car will be way faster than Hellboy...just by the numbers.
There are no risky designs here, no guesswork. Everything is planned, thought out, designed and built to last and be wicked....stay tuned for more!