LS vs BB advice needed

[Fbird]

Hey guys I need some advice on a LS swap. I have a 1st gen camaro that I've have everything from a 540 to a 396 in. It had a street 454 in it for years but last year I've grown tired of the constant problems with carburation. The car sits most of the time but when I did drive it there was always a issue. One of my friends turned me onto LS engines so I started gathering parts for a swap. So far I've accumulated engine swap mounts, LY6 with 12,000 miles on it, Holley oil pan, comp VVT cam, ls3 intake, among other small parts. So I have most of the big parts.

The issue is the price. I still have more $$$ to spend and I'm not even done yet. For the price I have already invested I could have built the 454 the way I wanted and add aftermarket EFI and still be in it cheaper than what I am now. I knew it would be more money going the LS way but I'm starting to rethink if the cost is justifiable for the payoff. As in, if the LS is going to be worth it or not. I'm really considering selling everything and putting a BB back in the car.

So, I guess the question is, is the LS swap going to be worth it in the end? Is the power, drivability, and reliability worth the money spent? Or would I be better off going back to BB power? What say you from the guys that have done the swap already?

[rustomatic]

The answer is yes. After doing just one (replacing a Ford in a Ford with an LS), I would literally LS anything. Just take one apart to observe the results of precision manufacturing compared to the old BB, then try the weight savings on for size--that's free horsepower. It's also obscenely efficient . . . Just sell the BB stuff, and let someone else experience the joys of nostalgia.

[ddavisart]

+1 for LS. This comment makes me think your making the right decision with the ls swap "I've grown tired of the constant problems with carburation. The car sits most of the time but when I did drive it there was always a issue".

My supercharged ls3 camaro never gave me any issues with daily driving it at 650hp. Streetability was great at that power. I think I even averaged around mid 20's in that car on my highway commute. I drove it for 35k miles trouble free before getting the itch to work on something else and selling it. Its one of the reasons I put a ls3 into my recent 73 firebird build. Nice weight to power ratio and they are very good engines. Stay the course, you will be happy in the end I bet.

[badazz81z28]

The problem is your part and piecing an LS swap. That will kill anyone’s budget! Everything is super expensive when you buy one part at a time. Saying you could have built a 454 and put fuel injection tells me you’re doing something terribly wrong.

If you plan to do anything besides going down the strip, the LS is all around better. The BBC can have gobs of torque and horsepower but it’s a pig on the front of your car. A properly prepped LS can make comparable power, lighter and fuel injection is wonderful. That FI alone makes me not miss my SBC/BBCs at all! My LS7 cost me about $10k after I upgraded the heads and cam, but makes over 600hp and a ton lighter then a 427 BBC. The Weight alone is probably equivalent to a 700hp BBC, but handles around the road course much easier.

Did you buy a complete 6.0?

Keep your eye out here. 67-69 camaro parts are always for sale! LS1tech.com is also a good source for second hand LS goodies

[Fbird]

The problem is your part and piecing an LS swap. That will kill anyone’s budget! Everything is super expensive when you buy one part at a time. Saying you could have built a 454 and put fuel injection tells me you’re doing something terribly wrong.

Not really doing anything wrong, it's just the cost of things. The engine i got was complete with all pulleys/accessories and wiring harness. To break it down on what I'm close to invested as of now.
- LY6 engine.... $3000
- Holley pan.... $400
- comps cam.... $600
- headers.... $250
- engine mounts.... $50
- comps VVT phaser.... $75
- LS3 intake.... $400
I still need a pedal, tune, wiring harness modded, rad hoses, fuel system, and whatever else small odds and ends. By the time I'm done I'll be in this close to 6 grand...for a engine that will only make 400 or so HP. Now, if I had that 6 grand and dumped it into my old 454 it would be a totally different engine. See my delima?

I had though about the weight differance and how it will be a advantage, the drivability for my wife to drive it and the handling differance. Also the fact that the all around power being more consistent with EFI than with carburation. I'm expecting alot out of this swap but before I went any further I figured I'd ask. The reason of this thread.



However it sound like I should still say on track and just keep emptying my pockets. You guys seem happy with your swaps so far.

[DT69Cam]

I'm almost done with my LS swap. I gotta tell you, the incidentals are a killer!! Here is just a couple of mine:
Trans Jack
Hydraulic battery cable crimper
Crimper for bulkhead terminals (GMPP harness)
Wire cutters for new battery cable
Assorted wire loom sizes (F6 braid loom)
Multi-link wire terminals (a ton of them, 1.00 a piece lol)
Engine pre-luber
And a bunch of other stuff I cant even think of right now.

[andrewb70]

When I first build my GTO it had a fuel injected 502 big block. The 502 was more than the typical zz502. It had a bigger cam and Canfield heads and made 600HP on the engine dyno. In 2008 I did a LS swap (basically LS3) and I don't regret a single moment. You can look at my build thread for inspiration. I put more miles on the car in the summer after the swap, than the 6 previous years.

Andrew

[Fbird]

Yeah I can definatly see the advantage in the drivability of it. I think part of the reason on why I didn't drive the car that much is because of the hassle of tuning everytime I drove it. So it just sat. Maybe this LS will pump some energy back into me to drive it some more.

So where is everybody sending their harness and ecm to get reflashed?

[TomMLS1]

I have done several swaps. I have never heard one person say "gee, I wish I would never have done an LS swap"....nuff said..

T,

[nokones]

It all depends on what your intent is with the car? Are you going to autocross or just grocery get? If you're autocrossing yes, you do not want the big block and a LS would definitely work better than the big block. IF you're just grocery getting than I would stay with the big block and put what you would end up spending on the conversion stuff into the performance of the big block. If you stayed with the big block, I would definitely convert to EFI. Holley will have what you need to convert from a carb to EFI and their stuff works great.

I probably would change the CAM to a compatible cam for EFI and you would need to convert the gas tank.

If you're going to autocross and make the car a competitive Pro-Touring car and if the money is not a factor personally, I would run a SBC 427 using a Dart All Aluminum Race block rather than a LS OEM block. If you're trying to get a lot of power and torque the all aluminum race block like a Dart or Brodix will withstand the stress a lot better than a LS OEM block especially if you're going to beat on it a lot.

Lingenfelter tried to convince me to go with an LS swap in my 89 Corvette and after they did the SBC 427 and they made a comment to me that it was best to stay with the SBC rather than swapping to a LS for some reason. I'm not sure if it was because they added the Dry Sump or if it had anything to do with trying to match up a power steering system. The C4 Corvettes have limited space and maybe swapping to a LS would have some limitations.

[badazz81z28]

Not really doing anything wrong, it's just the cost of things. The engine i got was complete with all pulleys/accessories and wiring harness. To break it down on what I'm close to invested as of now.
- LY6 engine.... $3000
- Holley pan.... $400
- comps cam.... $600
- headers.... $250
- engine mounts.... $50
- comps VVT phaser.... $75
- LS3 intake.... $400
I still need a pedal, tune, wiring harness modded, rad hoses, fuel system, and whatever else small odds and ends. By the time I'm done I'll be in this close to 6 grand...for a engine that will only make 400 or so HP. Now, if I had that 6 grand and dumped it into my old 454 it would be a totally different engine. See my delima?

I had though about the weight differance and how it will be a advantage, the drivability for my wife to drive it and the handling differance. Also the fact that the all around power being more consistent with EFI than with carburation. I'm expecting alot out of this swap but before I went any further I figured I'd ask. The reason of this thread.

However it sound like I should still say on track and just keep emptying my pockets. You guys seem happy with your swaps so far.

You need know what to buy. That Holley pan is too expensive. Like I said part and pieces kills you. The money you saved buying a LY6 over a LS3 is now bridging itself buying the LS3 Parts.

With the right camshaft, that 6.0 can make over 500hp. A stock 6.0 pushes out 400hp.


Like others said, nobody ever regretting going LS.

[Fbird]

The LS3 would have cost me more. I looked for a couple months local and found one. Complete with 120,000 miles on it for the same price I payed for my ly6. I was second in line to buy it but I missed out. Found some more but they were states away and they were all $4000+ not including shipping for high milage engines. I would have loved to have a ls3 if I could of got my hands on one.

I agree the holly pan is a crazy price and it was hard to swallow buying it. But it was the only pan that didn't hang below the crossmember and have plenty of clearence. My car is lower than stock and I live in the country so I have to have ground clearence. I also looked for what cleared and what didn't and each pan was depended on which motor mounts one was using. Even then, many companys you had to buy their headers with it to work. The only thing that was 100% guarenteed to work was the swap kits which were big $$$. Unfortunally I don't have the time to install the engine many times to see what works or cut and weld oil pans so I bought parts I thought will work without issues.

One of the reasons I'm still going to go ahead with the LS swap is because of the potential power. From what I have been reading they are easy to turbo for easy HP. I also have a first generation firebird that needs restored so i need to keep that in mind financially.

[badazz81z28]

The LS3 would have cost me more. I looked for a couple months local and found one. Complete with 120,000 miles on it for the same price I payed for my ly6. I was second in line to buy it but I missed out. Found some more but they were states away and they were all $4000+ not including shipping for high milage engines. I would have loved to have a ls3 if I could of got my hands on one.

I agree the holly pan is a crazy price and it was hard to swallow buying it. But it was the only pan that didn't hang below the crossmember and have plenty of clearence. My car is lower than stock and I live in the country so I have to have ground clearence. I also looked for what cleared and what didn't and each pan was depended on which motor mounts one was using. Even then, many companys you had to buy their headers with it to work. The only thing that was 100% guarenteed to work was the swap kits which were big $$$. Unfortunally I don't have the time to install the engine many times to see what works or cut and weld oil pans so I bought parts I thought will work without issues.

One of the reasons I'm still going to go ahead with the LS swap is because of the potential power. From what I have been reading they are easy to turbo for easy HP. I also have a first generation firebird that needs restored so i need to keep that in mind financially.

I'm mainly a sec gen Camaro guy, but what changed over the years? There wasn't always a Holley pan or swap kits....When I did my first LS swap, I used something like these...$25 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Moun...taa~by&vxp=mtr

Oil pan...a used 1998-2002 Camaro....If the SBC pan fits, there no reason why this one shouldn't. The headers were the most expensive, but really the only one on the market. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynatech-71...FZ5kk6&vxp=mtr Now a days on Summit Racing you can get a pair of headers for $250 or heck use the stock manifolds.....

A brand new LS3 from Summit or Jegs is $6979!!! A used one sure as hell shouldn't cost more then $4500-$5000. Got to be patient for the good used engines because some people are smoking crack....Took me a while to find a LS7. Drop the Ebay search and actually buy from a reputable recycler or a speed shop that pulls stock engines for wilds. IMHO because of budget reason, your goal should be to get it in the car and running, then look to modify such as swapping the camshaft. Again you got to shop around. A NEW LS3 intake is only $180....Did yours come with the rails, injectors and TB? If you need a LS3 pump, LMK Ill let you have it cheap. Brand New GM take-off.

These swaps have been done 10X over before the market came out with these expensive swap kits. Learn what other 67-69 guys did 5-8 years ago...You don't need a kit.

[rustomatic]

Research will save you lots of money. LS1tech.com. Ebay shorty headers (sub-$200.00) have been awesome for me so far, and many others will confirm this. That cam price is a killer--VVT is not worth the money, especially if you consider a turbo in the future. Truck intakes are nearly free, but they are tough to fit in some cars.

I paid a guy in L.A. (off eBay) $300.00 bucks to do my harness and disable the anti-theft (along with covering basic settings like wheel diameter and whatnot). It was a good deal, but I've since gotten into HP Tuners, and while the initial expense is tough to take, it's paid for itself already, as I've gone back into the computer many, many times since getting my car running. Having a DoD engine (Gen IV) made this way more necessary than I initially realized.

It's great to get one of these things running with the LS, but what nobody will tell you, and what many "tuners" seem to skip with truck engines is the speed limiter. It's pretty embarrassing to realize that your car will only do 98 in your first post-LS-swap track day, but with HP Tuners, it's a two-minute fix.

[Fbird]

I'm mainly a sec gen Camaro guy, but what changed over the years? There wasn't always a Holley pan or swap kits....When I did my first LS swap, I used something like these...$25 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Moun...taa~by&vxp=mtr

Oil pan...a used 1998-2002 Camaro....If the SBC pan fits, there no reason why this one shouldn't. The headers were the most expensive, but really the only one on the market. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynatech-71...FZ5kk6&vxp=mtr Now a days on Summit Racing you can get a pair of headers for $250 or heck use the stock manifolds.....

A brand new LS3 from Summit or Jegs is $6979!!! A used one sure as hell shouldn't cost more then $4500-$5000. Got to be patient for the good used engines because some people are smoking crack....Took me a while to find a LS7. Drop the Ebay search and actually buy from a reputable recycler or a speed shop that pulls stock engines for wilds. IMHO because of budget reason, your goal should be to get it in the car and running, then look to modify such as swapping the camshaft. Again you got to shop around. A NEW LS3 intake is only $180....Did yours come with the rails, injectors and TB? If you need a LS3 pump, LMK Ill let you have it cheap. Brand New GM take-off.

These swaps have been done 10X over before the market came out with these expensive swap kits. Learn what other 67-69 guys did 5-8 years ago...You don't need a kit.

Those are the same engine plates I'm using. I do believe they are ITC billet. Adjustable so you can get the head off the firewall and I can adjust if any other things are too tight.

I swapped the cam in because I didn't want to go back into and swap it after it was in the car. I also though that a cam swap would effect the tune and didn't want to spend the money twice on it. Once and done ya know. Same kinda deal with the headers that I bought. They are the cheaper speed daddy headers as I just couldn't see spending the extra money on the nicer ones when future mods were uncertain.

I think part of the problem is around my area (Pacific Northwest) there just isn't a supply of engines like their is back east. Even looking at car-part.com now there isn't much on the west coast. The yards that do have the pullout engines are now wise to people swapping them so the price isn't what they used to be years ago. LS accessories out of a car on the used market here is virtually non existent and when something pops up its more expensive than buying online.

My ls3 intake did come with rails, injectors, and bolts but no throttle body. After seeing many go for $450+ I figured $400 was a decent deal. The water pump clears the throttle body and I figured I'd run truck accessories to cut down on cost. Pic of the truck pump:



Rustomatic, yes the price of the cam is outrageous. But any roller cam is around that price these days. I've read many things about guys ditching the VVT as options for tunes and cams open up. I figured I'd keep it for now as I wanted to experience the VVT and the wife will also be driving the car. I can swap it out at a later time but I doubt I will.

So I contacted EFIsolutions.com as they are local to me and asked some questions on modding my harness and a reflash. If all goes well then I'll send my stuff to them.

[Fbird]

Now that the car is running i will say, i regret doing the swap. Never again will i LS anything. The high cost for no added benefit is a waste.

If i didnt have a firebird to restore i would sell the complete setup and go back to a big block. But, im done messing with the car for now.

[badazz81z28]

Now that the car is running i will say, i regret doing the swap. Never again will i LS anything. The high cost for no added benefit is a waste.

If i didnt have a firebird to restore i would sell the complete setup and go back to a big block. But, im done messing with the car for now.

You did something wrong to have that opinion. The LS swap isn’t the biggest popular swap in the past two decades for nothing.

What size engine did you use?


Edit: looking back at the post...I would have dumped VVT. I would have gone to Texas Speed for a cam. It’s an 6.0 and it looks like you’re using a weird throttle body...there’s some things you might want to re-look at. A 6.0 with a healthy cam, headers etc. should make close to 500 to the tires.

[andrewb70]

You did something wrong to have that opinion. The LS swap isn’t the biggest popular swap in the past two decades for nothing.

What size engine did you use?


Edit: looking back at the post...I would have dumped VVT. I would have gone to Texas Speed for a cam. It’s an 6.0 and it looks like you’re using a weird throttle body...there’s some things you might want to re-look at. A 6.0 with a healthy cam, headers etc. should make close to 500 to the tires.

There is nothing wrong with that TB. It's the same one that's used in a large variety of Gen 4 engines, including the LSA. It's an 87mm throttle body and it is not the issue.

I suspect that the engine is not tuned properly or that the camshaft was not installed properly, or there are other mechanical issues.

Andrew

[badazz81z28]

There is nothing wrong with that TB. It's the same one that's used in a large variety of Gen 4 engines, including the LSA. It's an 87mm throttle body and it is not the issue.

I suspect that the engine is not tuned properly or that the camshaft was not installed properly, or there are other mechanical issues.

Andrew

I get it, its just not typical to what I have seen. Last time I saw a small TB was on my 04 LS1. If you want to squeeze the HP potential out of these engines, you need the right combination of parts. You have an LS3 intake...Use a LS3 90MM TB. Use one of the newer ECMs, not the 411. Get a good cam (TSP IMHO) and a quality tune. If its an auto, you need a proper converter.

My LS1 was ridiculous. People honestly thought it was supercharged. It wasn't a torque monster, but easily ran mid 12s on street tires. My LS7 is so fast, I hit 120+mph in the 1/4 and its not even set-up for the strip. With a small cam too.

[Fbird]

Nothing is wrong. The car has been through two tuners and was just dyno tuned. The fact is that with a 401 hp number, the whole swap was a waste of time and money. I was at the same power level with my old 454.

A 90mm throttle body was talked about. It wouldn’t add much more power. The ECM is a 038 newer style. Gearing is at 4:10 and converter is 2500. Really not much more that can be done and im not dumping another $1000 into it for a different cam and tune just to gain 20 or so hp.