69 Camaro subframe

[Bwheeler287]

Long time reader, first time poster. I have some questions regarding the build up of my 69 Camaro subframe, a topic I know has been best to death but there are still some questions I have after reading this forum for countless hours.

First some background. The car is a 69 Camaro currently in the sheetmetal work stage but it's time to start mocking up suspension components before finishing off the bottom of the car, which leads me here. I have done full floor, trunk, inner and outer rockers, full quarters, mini tubs, outer wheel houses, toe kicks, rear inner valance, tail light panel, decklid, roof structure and roof panel, tourque boxes, door skins, the list goes on....

plans for the car are to be pro touring, coil overs all around, 4 link, ls air conditioning etc...its use will be more towards the "touring" side as I plan to drive it A LOT. Things like the power tour, drive to large scale shows such as good guys, super Chevy and the like. Now once I get there and there happens to be some road course, auto x, braking challenges etc I would like to participate and have fun with the chance of performing well.

i have found myself researching the abundant amount of info about aftermarket subframes vs building up the stock sub. My stock sub mounts are rusted but I'm plenty capable of repairing so that's not an issue.

Reading about stock subs is I mainly find myself hung up on the spindles. I understand with all the control arms of the major manufactures that they offer corrected geometry to improve camber curve, as well as some like global west adding in lots of caster. Which they all seem to be equally competitive with one another

spindles on the other hand are more of a mystery. I understand the goal with a spindle is to raise the upper ball joint location, also to help camber curve, as well as relocating the steering attatchment to reduce bump steer. My past research around this forum shows the ATS afx spindles are the most recommended. They are also the most expensive.

My question lies with, what other spindles are out there? They can't be the only ones offering such improvements. I see pictures of aftermarket subs running spindles the are not those aluminum ats units housing a c5 bearing. So what spindles are they? For my use, the increased cost in an aluminum spindle to save weight (not a huge concern for me) or the cost of running a sealded bearing (also doesn't interest me much) doesn't add up to me needing to spend $1300 on some spindles. So what are my options?

as far as overall cost of building up a stock sub, I only end up a couple hundred short of have a complete heidts or tci unit. Would these subs offer the handling and performance I am after. Dse art Morrison etc are just not in the cards. What are your opinions on these two subs?

ultimatley if it handles and stops like a modern high performance car, like my 09 Srt8 challenger for example, mission accomplished

[dhutton]

ridetech Tru-turn is another option worth investigating.

Don

[Bwheeler287]

I'll check into that thanks. Any other suggestions out there?

[ra11ysport]

The downside to building up a stock subframe is tire clearance.
For instance my Speedtech subframe(Non Extreme)can fit a 295 tire with 7in backspace without much issue.
Stock subframe your limited to 5.75in backspace and tire rub on the frame and sway bar.
There are alot of advantages to running a Speedtech subframe for instance, you can run stock spindles or ATS. You can also fab a 3 piece sway bar to work with the frame it has alot of flexability, or you can spend 8k on a dse or AME subframe. But if your your gonna run a 255 than by point is mute!

The problem with TCI and Hiedts is the spindles are made for the unit.
I still think this is the best option when DSE or AME is out of the picture
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/...=prod/prd8.htm

[H20cooled]

With the ridetech front setup and their Tru-turn you can run a lot larger front tires and you can use their 3 piece sway bar. For me I just could not justify spending $8k+ on a new frame when the one I have is still good. I'm sure the aftermarket ones are better and if you have the money then it would be the best I'm sure. But for $8k I did my whole suspension.

[Bwheeler287]

The downside to building up a stock subframe is tire clearance.
For instance my Speedtech subframe(Non Extreme)can fit a 295 tire with 7in backspace without much issue.
Stock subframe your limited to 5.75in backspace and tire rub on the frame and sway bar.
There are alot of advantages to running a Speedtech subframe for instance, you can run stock spindles or ATS. You can also fab a 3 piece sway bar to work with the frame it has alot of flexability, or you can spend 8k on a dse or AME subframe. But if your your gonna run a 255 than by point is mute!

The problem with TCI and Hiedts is the spindles are made for the unit.
I still think this is the best option when DSE or AME is out of the picture
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/...=prod/prd8.htm

This is the subframe I was referring to being pictured without ats spindles. So this speed tech subframe is designded to run a stock type spindle or their ats spindle?
If I were to run this subframe with stock type spindles would i back into more bumpsteer like the stock sub? Or is the bumpsteer engineered out of the equation by the design of the subframe rather than the spindle?

[Bwheeler287]

Are you happy with the performance you got from the tru turn? And did you do a close ratio box as well? I've been reading a lot about the tru turn and it does seem to be a viable option

[ra11ysport]

With the ridetech front setup and their Tru-turn you can run a lot larger front tires and you can use their 3 piece sway bar. For me I just could not justify spending $8k+ on a new frame when the one I have is still good. I'm sure the aftermarket ones are better and if you have the money then it would be the best I'm sure. But for $8k I did my whole suspension.

Have you installed the tru turn with a 275 tire (i have) prepare to do fender work or run a smaller tire.

[H20cooled]

My car is still being built but I have installed the tru-turn but I cannot comment of the fit of tires or the ride but I have not heard any negative on that setup, from everything I have read it is the best thing you can do with the stock subframe. Regarding close ratio steering, I sent my gear box and pump to Less power steering and they upgraded it to 12:1 with the setup to provide the good road feel and then they dyno tested the pump and gear box and set them to the right flow/pressure for my setup.

[ra11ysport]

This is the subframe I was referring to being pictured without ats spindles. So this speed tech subframe is designded to run a stock type spindle or their ats spindle?
If I were to run this subframe with stock type spindles would i back into more bumpsteer like the stock sub? Or is the bumpsteer engineered out of the equation by the design of the subframe rather than the spindle?

Yes its engineered for both stock and ats spindles.
I would call Speedtech for a more educated answer, but the frame has the g-mod built into it which helps the camber gain and bump steer.
Cantact Jay at Speedtech and he will answer any question you have they are great to deal with.

[Cdog]

Start with your budget. What are you willing to spend? My personal preference is Art Morrison. The majority of the front end is factory GM. 10 years from now parts will be abundant & C6 has tons of aftermarket performance and racing support.

[F-Body International]

Pro-Touring F-Body has a very interesting kit for 1st gen if interested in checking that out. I'm using PTFB for my '79 T/A and I must say, the parts are awesome. Also, my advice would be to stay with leaf springs if you're building a touring/mild-competition car. You don't need coil-overs and expensive link suspension to lower your car.

http://pro-touringf-body.com/control_arms.html

"Tall Spindle Kit"

This new GEN II™ geometry correction kit makes your stock "short" spindles into one
inch taller spindles with this simple bolt on kit without having to buy expensive spindles.
This kit also improves bump steer. (69 Firebirds use n adjustable bumpsteer kit )

67-69 Camaro 1CS-201 $599.00

[ra11ysport]

Start with your budget. What are you willing to spend? My personal preference is Art Morrison. The majority of the front end is factory GM. 10 years from now parts will be abundant & C6 has tons of aftermarket performance and racing support.

I called AME to find out what is actually factory gm parts. The only off the shelf part is the upper and lower control arms. Everything else is designed and built for the package. The spindle is off the shelf but its modified to to work with their steering arms and r&p.

[Bwheeler287]

Looks like maybe running factory spindles aren't as detrimental to a suspension setup as I thought they were. I am gathering that running increased caster will improve bumpsteer by rotating the tie rod attachment down, improving bumpsteer, similar to an aftermarket spindle relocating it down.

Budget wise, aftermarket spindles are a huge expense in decideding to build up a stock sub vs buy an aftermarket unit. If one could get away with running stock spindles with all the other goodies on a stock sub the price gap begins to widen in comparison to a buying a complete aftermarket unit. Where as if you had to buy ats spindles or a ride tech tru turn setup the cost gets pretty close to an aftermarket sub

[Cdog]

The DSE rack & steering arms are the only non GM items. You just need to cut off the factory steering arm on the upright.

Benefits are the extremely light weight forged aluminum factory GM parts that are track proven.

Looks like maybe running factory spindles aren't as detrimental to a suspension setup as I thought they were. I am gathering that running increased caster will improve bumpsteer by rotating the tie rod attachment down, improving bumpsteer, similar to an aftermarket spindle relocating it down.

Budget wise, aftermarket spindles are a huge expense in decideding to build up a stock sub vs buy an aftermarket unit. If one could get away with running stock spindles with all the other goodies on a stock sub the price gap begins to widen in comparison to a buying a complete aftermarket unit. Where as if you had to buy ats spindles or a ride tech tru turn setup the cost gets pretty close to an aftermarket sub

[F-Body International]

Before you start any of these suspension ideas, I would suggest starting off by ordering solid body mounts and addressing those mounting points for the frame like mentioned. 67-81 F-Body subframes literally bolt to the body in 4 spots and this is a major flex point. Solid body mounts will stabilize the foundation all of your suspension operates on. You can have all the suspension goodies and high grip tires but if the foundation is not solid, everything will flex and your suspension will not operate to its fullest potential.

Again, I would suggest contacting Pro-Touring F-Body for the solid mounts. Theirs uses a steel locating sleeve and is 3-way adjustable. Others are not adjustable, more expensive, etc.

Stock vs aftermarket subframe? My vote would be turning wrenches and saving money by using a stock subframe on this thread. You can build a very well handling car with simple suspension upgrades and good tires.

Hopefully this helps. The PTFB "Tall Spindle Kit" and solid body mounts are really well priced for what you get in my opinion.

[Bwheeler287]

Before you start any of these suspension ideas, I would suggest starting off by ordering solid body mounts and addressing those mounting points for the frame like mentioned. 67-81 F-Body subframes literally bolt to the body in 4 spots and this is a major flex point. Solid body mounts will stabilize the foundation all of your suspension operates on. You can have all the suspension goodies and high grip tires but if the foundation is not solid, everything will flex and your suspension will not operate to its fullest potential.

Again, I would suggest contacting Pro-Touring F-Body for the solid mounts. Theirs uses a steel locating sleeve and is 3-way adjustable. Others are not adjustable, more expensive, etc.

Stock vs aftermarket subframe? My vote would be turning wrenches and saving money by using a stock subframe on this thread. You can build a very well handling car with simple suspension upgrades and good tires.

Hopefully this helps. The PTFB "Tall Spindle Kit" and solid body mounts are really well priced for what you get in my opinion.

Thanks for the info, I will check into that link and look at that spindle kit

[dhutton]

ridetech spindles with Tru-turn is cost effective....

Don

[Bwheeler287]

The DSE rack & steering arms are the only non GM items. You just need to cut off the factory steering arm on the upright.

Benefits are the extremely light weight forged aluminum factory GM parts that are track proven.

Cdog, your in box is full. My email is [email protected]

[Rod]

I saw that someone recommended some tall spindle ball joint kit, I looked at that kit, its priced right but it won't work. the Camaro's bump steer increases BADLY when you add tall bottom ball joints, that kit adds those...no no...then they add tall outer tie rods and that brings the bump steer right back to the camaros stock curve? so I dont understand those to parts in the kit, the tall upper ball joint is what helps the poor camber curve, helps, in no way fixes, but helps..

what do you want out of the car? what is your budget?