1st Gen Camaro subframes...

[Nasty N8]

First off I want to thank everyone for their great responses! I've also received multiple emails from this post with other great products! There is so much available, which is great, just makes it a tough decision. What's the widest front wheel/tire combo a stock subframe will accept?

[Cdog]

Here's a kicker: If you held a gun to my head and forced me to clip only one end of the car -- either front subframe swap or link-type rear suspension, which would I pick?

I would choose to convert the rear suspension first. To me, replacing leaf springs with a good "Link Type" suspension is more important than swapping out the front clip.

We’re going this route on my 69 Camaro. We installed the AM Tri-4 bar and plan to do what we can with the front end.

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

I know I answered before, but I just wanted to point out that the stock subframe works well, and just needs a little touchup to work great, what an after market frame has over the stock fame is that there

(1) stiffer
(2) better geometry and the ability to run a wider front tire (most of them)
(3) lighter (some about 100lbs)

*fixed

Sorry, Rodney, had to do it. LOL


-J

[Rod]

*fixed

Sorry, Rodney, had to do it. LOL


-J

Ha ha ha ha Thanks Jay!!! you are are awesome brother! some have a 100 pound difference? you mean as a completed unit, not just bare frame right, I don't think the bare frame weighs a 100 pounds, I will go out in the yard and weigh one today I have two bare frames out back, also......that is a HUGE number, I better get on a diet

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

Ha ha ha ha Thanks Jay!!! you are are awesome brother! some have a 100 pound difference? you mean as a completed unit, not just bare frame right, I don't think the bare frame weighs a 100 pounds, I will go out in the yard and weigh one today I have two bare frames out back, also......that is a HUGE number, I better get on a diet

In my Beavis voice............you said "Huge"

Our complete front clip is nearly 120 lbs lighter than a complete stock front clip

That comparison was done before the changeover to ridetech shocks too which as I understand are lighter than our old design shocks. When your driver weighs 260lbs and the car is running a conventional iron block SBC every little bit counts.

-J

[Rod]

When your driver weighs 260lbs

ha ha ha ha ha ..??? wait a minute....Im not 260 yet! ha ha ha ha ha

[Bmf5150]

The Scott mock subframe is a great piece!

[Todd in Vancouver]

Just curious but what is the true cost difference?

What I mean by this is when I got my car I went with the TCI front because mine needed EVERYTHING. So take a stock subframe, have it welded up (not everyone has a welder and lots can't weld if they did), replace all the steering components (drag link, tie rods, etc.), steering box for a better one, bigger sway bar, ball joints and now upgrade control arms, shocks, drop spindles, subframe to firewall braces and all the bolts, washers and anything else you can think of. Now, compare that to my TCI (or others) front clip and tell how much does the better, lighter one really cost. I'm betting if you do the math you'll see it really isn't that much more expense in the grand scheme of things compared to the total overhaul investment. Let alone you will probably end up doing it anyway and hope you can now sell your very expensive stock clip for pennies on the dollar.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

[srh3trinity]

I said it earlier. When I did the math I probably spent 1000-1500 more on my Mock subframe and components as compared to building a stocker with upper end parts. A DSE steering box is pricey, a Fox Mustang rack is cheap. You can find c5/c6 control arms and uprights for cheaper than aftermarket tubular arms. C5 or C6 brakes bolt up without brackets (cost savings). Scott includes a sway bar and crossmember and that saves some too over the aftermarket. I was surprised in the end.

[Ketzer]

You can find c5/c6 control arms and uprights for cheaper than aftermarket tubular arms. .

What I found when looking into this, you could buy C5/C6 control arms and uprights and complete brakes for less than the cost of just comparable big Wilwood brakes. Granted the C5/C6 parts are used and might need some freshening up... but for the budget minded...


Jeff-

[srh3trinity]

You can find c5/c6 control arms and uprights for cheaper than aftermarket tubular arms. .

What I found when looking into this, you could buy C5/C6 control arms and uprights and complete brakes for less than the cost of just comparable big Wilwood brakes. Granted the C5/C6 parts are used and might need some freshening up... but for the budget minded...


Jeff-

I found this to be true as well. I bought my control arms and a uprights from a board member here for less than $500. I did replace the hub assembly, but the ones I took off are probably in decent shape. The upgrading steering rack that I bought was much cheaper then an upgraded GM box.

[overZealous1]

i went the stupid route. i started replacing everything on the stock front clip and had it nearly complete. then the cost of the brakes was the decider for me and the fact that speedtech was having a special at the time to toss in stock height afx spindles with the complete subframe.
when i figured in the brakes portion, it was the deciding factor. $3000+ for a set of really good 6 piston fronts, or $1000 for the c6 z06 set up from core that bolts right to the afx spindles. it really was a wash and to get a complete subframe with components all designed to work together and so much cleaner made it a no brainer. luckily i was able to get almost what i paid for all the stock frame parts i had already purchased.
might take awhile to save up, but keep your eye on the classified. they pop up every once in awhile.

[overZealous1]

pic of the speedtech. i am grafting it to a rear frame section i made to house the 350z irs. once i decided to do the rear frame and irs, i really had to get the speedtech front to get a good dimensional tube to graft to. but, the numbers did work out as mentioned in post above.

[boneheadzz]

OK, curve ball here.

Has anyone tried using a second gen subframe on a 1st?

Why? Because my buddy needed his barn back so I brought home my 69 Camaro. I've had it 15 years and done nothing but neglect it. I am sick of just storing this car instead of working on it. It is my dream car. Or at least this car is the car that I dream about fixing up and keeping forever. I've been waiting until I can afford to totally go thru the car but I'm never gonna get there if I don't take the first step.
Money is tight and the 69 sub is rotted around the bushing mounts. It also has drum brakes and an itty bitty swaybar. I have access to another second gen subframe with standard discs and a 1 1/4" swaybar for next to nothing. I also have a 79 TA that I have been collecting parts for. I have some goodies such as Del-alum upper a-arm bushings, 13" LS1 brake kit and some poly swaybar bushings. I could use these on the 2nd gen subframe and get my 69 on the road instead of just wishing it was.
It's in sad shape but I want to reanimate it. Unfortunately with one kid in college and one closing in on it, my budget is microscopic. Therefore this is why I'm going the low buck route. I'm not afraid of cutting and welding on the 2nd gen frame to make it work. I have the basic skills just not the deep pockets to buy aftermarket.
Don't mean to highjack this thread, I just thought this would be a great place to ask this.
Thanks!
Mike

[pitts64]

Rear steer is under compression and makes things touchy under speed. There's nothing you can do about it that I'm aware of.. I would go with the Second Gen sub and scrap the rear steer... I'm getting ready to cut the sub frame off my 64 Pontiac because the handling is always unpredictable. Go with the front steer...

[dipren443]

Rear steer is under compression and makes things touchy under speed. There's nothing you can do about it that I'm aware of.. I would go with the Second Gen sub and scrap the rear steer... I'm getting ready to cut the sub frame off my 64 Pontiac because the handling is always unpredictable. Go with the front steer...

Is your response to boneheadzz?!? If so, I think you might have something confused. 2nd Gens are not rear steer.

[boneheadzz]

I think he was saying go with the second gen sub and scrap the original 1st gen sub which is a rear steer.

I never heard of there being an issue of front vs. rear steer but I'm no expert by a long shot.

But the main thing I'm wondering is if anyone has actually swapped subframes and had some sort of success... street car, track car, drag car or whatever.

Thanks.
Mike

[makoshark]

What pitts64 is referring to is bumpsteer, which the first gen Camaro's suffer greatly from. GM addressed this in the 2nd gen Camaro's by making them front steer. I'm no expert at all this either, but this is the way I understand it.

The price difference between modified stock sub compared to full aftermarket is minimal. The performance difference, from the results I've seen with others running both, is comparable. I went the modified stock sub route. The way I did it was buy the components as I could afford them rather than taking the hit all at once. That, I believe, is where the biggest difference between the two come into play.

[dipren443]

I think he was saying go with the second gen sub and scrap the original 1st gen sub which is a rear steer.

I never heard of there being an issue of front vs. rear steer but I'm no expert by a long shot.

But the main thing I'm wondering is if anyone has actually swapped subframes and had some sort of success... street car, track car, drag car or whatever.

Thanks.
Mike

Yeah, that was my interpretation as well, but his response was a little vague. Was just trying to clarify...

[Ben@SpeedTech]

pic of the speedtech. i am grafting it to a rear frame section i made to house the 350z irs. once i decided to do the rear frame and irs, i really had to get the speedtech front to get a good dimensional tube to graft to. but, the numbers did work out as mentioned in post above.

Hey Scott, that's some cool stuff goin' on there!