Upgrade Current setup or go LS

[Ron Sutton]

Miles & Todd,

Thanks for the kind words.



Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Ron, Thank you again for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback.

As anyone would love to build for the most power possible the car will be seeing only the street for a few years until the suspension and brakes are completed. That being said I believe motor option #1 is best for my use as it builds power in the lower rpm range.

To respond to your earlier question the pistons are flat top, but have 2 sets of eye brow valve reliefs. (i hope this will work!) As far as checking the piston height to the deck at TDC, i do not have the gauge to measure that. I have went to a few local stores to try and source one with no luck. Would a straight edge and a feeler gauge be too inaccurate?

Moving on to the heads. i see the ones you outlined are the 64cc, dart also has that head in a 72cc which would bring us closer to the desired 75.5cc. Im completely new to this so bare with my stupid questions :| . If i understand correctly before the heads are installed i would have to bring them to a machine shop and tell them i need them milled to a total of 75.5cc. I assume this isnt a tough task for them and is relatively inexpensive? bringing the chamber to 75.5cc what exactly does that improve as far as power goes? sorry again for the dumb question!

Moving on to the gasket! i now assume once i have figured out the other clearances with the numbers i provide then we can move forward with selecting the correct gasket thickness to maintain compression?

The Comp cam selected looked great, hopefully a nice lumpy idle! I looked briefly if comp sells a complete kit. My worry is selecting the correct push rods for the setup as my knowledge is quite low.

As far as the Carb i was looking into the holly ultra DP 650, would the same carb in a 750 work?

okay i dont think i am missing anything else. If anyone can see from my previous parts list to the current spec'd parts from Ron and notices that i am missing something please chime in!

Ron Thanks again, I look forward to hearing my next steps!

[Thephranc]

This turned into an amazingly informative thread.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, Thank you again for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback.
No worries. Just like to help.

As anyone would love to build for the most power possible the car will be seeing only the street for a few years until the suspension and brakes are completed. That being said I believe motor option #1 is best for my use as it builds power in the lower rpm range.
Cool. That is what I would have picked for your application too. You will really enjoy it on the street.

To respond to your earlier question the pistons are flat top, but have 2 sets of eye brow valve reliefs. (i hope this will work!)
It adds a small amount of cc to the total combustion camber volume with the piston at Top Dead Center (TDC). So that means the combustion chamber in the heads will need to be reduced by tha amount to achieve the 10-1 compression. With this cam ... compression ratio is very important. Dropping to 9.3-1 compression loses about 10 hp in the upper rpms, but really hurts low-end & mid-range torque.

As far as checking the piston height to the deck at TDC, I do not have the gauge to measure that. I have went to a few local stores to try and source one with no luck. Would a straight edge and a feeler gauge be too inaccurate?
Quite frankly that will work fine. You need the piston at exactly TDC. Get me the clearance measurement when you have it & I will do the calcs for you.


Moving on to the heads. i see the ones you outlined are the 64cc, dart also has that head in a 72cc which would bring us closer to the desired 75.5cc.
I understand the confusion. But, you're not looking for the cylinder head combustion chamber to have 75.5c by itself ... you are looking for the "total combustion camber volume" to be 75.5cc.

The "total combustion camber volume" includes:

1. The head combustion chamber volume
2. The head gasket combustion chamber volume
3. The piston top to deck clearance combustion chamber volume
4. The piston valve reliefs (or dome).
You add all of these up to arrive at the "total combustion camber volume" ... except in the case of dome pistons. With domed pistons you add the CC's from 1-3 ... and subtract the CC's of the piston dome.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So ... for your engine:
1. The head combustion chamber volume = 64cc (out of the box advertised number, but these vary.)
2. The head gasket combustion chamber volume = 6cc with this special gasket
3. The piston top to deck clearance combustion chamber volume = 6.3** ... assuming you have .030" clearance.
4. The piston valve reliefs (or dome) = 5.5cc***

These add up to 81.8cc "total combustion camber volume" which would make your compression ratio 9.3-1. This is too low for this cam. The dyno simulation shows it loses about 10 hp in the upper rpms, & lose 12# of torque ... but in my real world experience ... the LOSS in responsiveness, low-rpm torque & mid range power will be bad, and you won't like it.



So ... you need to go to a experienced race engine shop & have them "cc" your new heads ... then mill them just enough to achieve 58cc chambers ... and bolt them on with the head gasket I recommended & you'll be set.

** In the previous post, I stated .030" piston top to deck clearance equaled 7.3cc, but I made a mistake. It is actually 6.3cc.
*** Common pistons with 4 valve reliefs vary from 2.5cc to 6.3cc, depending on how deep the manufacturer makes the valve reliefs. I am NOT suggesting you measure yours. We'll just use the number of 5.5cc & be close.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im completely new to this so bare with my stupid questions :| . If i understand correctly before the heads are installed i would have to bring them to a machine shop and tell them i need them milled to a total of 75.5cc.
Incorrect. Refer to above.

I assume this isnt a tough task for them and is relatively inexpensive?
No, it's not difficult, but you want good guys doing the work. CC'ing & milling heads should not cost more than a couple hundred dollars.

bringing the chamber to 75.5cc what exactly does that improve as far as power goes? sorry again for the dumb question!
Incorrect. Refer to above.

Moving on to the gasket! i now assume once i have figured out the other clearances with the numbers i provide then we can move forward with selecting the correct gasket thickness to maintain compression?
I already suggested the best thin gasket available to help you achieve your needed compression ratio target. The 4.060' bore x .030" thick MLS gasket from Cometic. MLS is Multi-Layer-Steel ... and when the gasket gets thinner than .035" ... you get gasket strength back by going to MLS. I use Felpro a lot & Felpro makes MLS gaskets too, but Cometic is king of the MLS gaskets.

The Comp cam selected looked great, hopefully a nice lumpy idle!
It will sound mean ... because it is.

I looked briefly if comp sells a complete kit.
Comp Cams can suggest exactly what you need. Call their tech support line at 800-999-0853. They have some of the best tech support in the business.

My worry is selecting the correct push rods for the setup as my knowledge is quite low.
Do NOT buy your pushrods yet. Get the heads, cam & lifters installed in the engine ... and use the Manley #42132 pushrod length checking tool ... along with one of your stock pushrods ... to determine the correct pushrod length you need. Then order the pushrods from Comp that are closest to your measurement.



As far as the Carb i was looking into the holly ultra DP 650, would the same carb in a 750 work?
Yup ... sure will.

okay i dont think i am missing anything else. If anyone can see from my previous parts list to the current spec'd parts from Ron and notices that i am missing something please chime in!

Ron Thanks again, I look forward to hearing my next steps!
You're welcome!

[Ron Sutton]

This turned into an amazingly informative thread.

Cool. Thanks. Feel free to chime in with questions or comments.

Ron Sutton

[Ron Sutton]

Oh ... what kind of car is this engine in?

I may be able to recommend headers.

[Ron Sutton]

When you install the cam, use a quality timing chain set that allows you to advance or retard the cam with bushings or different keyway slots.

You will want to install this cam at 4° Advanced.

You will want to check piston to valve clearance before you do final installation of the heads. When you get the heads ready, let me know & I'll guide you on how to do this.

[pro86tourn]

Ron, im not home yet so i haven't been able to check the piston to deck clearances.

The car is a 87 monte carlo ss. T-5 trans, with hydro clutch. the car currently has headers, i forget the exact ones but the had to be modified to work to clear the slave cylinder.

Any advice on a timing chain?

thanks again for the VERY informative post.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, im not home yet so i haven't been able to check the piston to deck clearances.
No worries. Just post when you do.

The car is a 87 monte carlo ss. T-5 trans, with hydro clutch. the car currently has headers, i forget the exact ones but the had to be modified to work to clear the slave cylinder.
Figure out what size the OD of the primary tubes are & post the size.


Any advice on a timing chain?
Yes, Cloyes Billet True Roller #9-3500TX9

thanks again for the VERY informative post.

No worries. Keep us in the loop as you progress, by posting on this forum thread. If you show photos of your self doing these steps, it will help others.

[Thephranc]

My worry is selecting the correct push rods for the setup as my knowledge is quite low.
Do NOT buy your pushrods yet. Get the heads, cam & lifters installed in the engine ... and use the Manley #42132 pushrod length checking tool ... along with one of your stock pushrods ... to determine the correct pushrod length you need. Then order the pushrods from Comp that are closest to your measurement.

Would you go up to the next closest size or down if you fall between two sizes?

[Jok3r]

im about to build my 350 as well. but 3500$ is way too much. im gonna build mine exactly like hot rod magazine and superchevy did their 350's. they did over 400hp for around 1000$
>Chump ChangeChallenge 350 PricingPro Comp Heads$580.00Professional Products Intake$129.00Complete 350 Motor, Pick-a-Part(Wrecking Yard)$200.00Core charge$0.00Gaskets set- Motorville(MRG-7100)$25.00E-Bay Comp Cam$159.00Pro Comp CastAluminum Valve Covers$33.00Summit Racing Pushrods$29.00Chump Change Total Build Cost$1155.00
for more http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...d/viewall.html
only thing im gonna do different is get RHS heads.

i also looked into putting an ls1 into my 87 camaro. it looked like it would cost me 4k+. LS1$1200. wiring harness $3-500. t56 trans $1000. driveshaft $800. then theres the fabrication of 93+ camaro peddles into the car and wiring the new engine to the old car which both seem pretty difficult. then the little stuff like motor mounts, crossmember, radiator, exhaust etc, which will add up fast. LS1 swap is for $$ show cars and big $$$$ projects. not the average muscle car imo.

[Ron Sutton]

Would you go up to the next closest size or down if you fall between two sizes?

Comp offers pushrods in lengths every .050". Rarely does that number fall right in the middle, so I just go with the closest. If he were to put the stock 7.800" pushrod in there (measure it to be sure that it is still 7.800") and the gap is .062" ... I'd go .050" longer than stock & order the 7.850" length of pushrods.

If the number worked out exactly in the middle, I go with the shorter one for two reasons (in case we mill the head more at a later date & where the roller tip ends up on the valve at max lift) ... but we're splitting hairs here now.

In super high dollar or crazy rpm engines, we would order the pushrods the exact needed length.
That would be a waste of money here.

[pro86tourn]

Ok Im back with new information hopefully you can work with this Ron!

So upon my best attempts at using a feeler gauge at tdc. it seems the reading is .030. I have a few questions regarding the pistons that were used in the build. I took pictures to show you, my fathers friend originally had the motor built so i am unsure but when i removed some of the carbon build up (car was run for VERY little miles before pulled apart and never tuned) i noticed the 6 rear pistons look different then the front 2 :|

As far as CCing the heads does that mean reducing the chamber size from 64cc down? I did not know that was possible! So if we play with gaskets and head work the desired 10.1 is still achievable correct? *fingers crossed*

I measured the inside diameter of the header tube and got 1.5'' and down to the collector is 2.5''

As far as installing the cam degreed i will need a degree wheel correct? and to check the rest of the clearances I will require parts on hand.

I am not sure if I am missing any questions but if i am please let me know! hopefully this will turn out to be a bad ass little motor.

Here are some pics

I look forward to your response! Thanks! (also if there are any ways to save a few bucks from my original parts list or any further recommendations let me know!)

also i posted a pic of the car when it was out. All original garage stored 54,000 km car is in perfect shape.

[Ron Sutton]

Ok Im back with new information hopefully you can work with this Ron!

So upon my best attempts at using a feeler gauge at tdc. it seems the reading is .030.
Good. That is "normal" and what we already calculated for.

I have a few questions regarding the pistons that were used in the build. I took pictures to show you, my fathers friend originally had the motor built so i am unsure but when i removed some of the carbon build up (car was run for VERY little miles before pulled apart and never tuned)
I think it may have been run longer than you think. Not that means it won't be fine. But I'd like to see a photo of the cylinder walls with the piston at BDC.


i noticed the 6 rear pistons look different then the front 2 :|
Hmmmm. It's clear that the one piston is a .020" over (the std bore) piston. I can't tell on the other one "for sure" because it says .020 on one side & what looks to be .030 on the other side. This isn't great news, but not a deal breaker either.

There is a concern the engine isn't balanced, but that's not a deal breaker from having a fun street engine either.


As far as CCing the heads does that mean reducing the chamber size from 64cc down?
"CC'ing the heads" is a slang term for measuring the CC's in the chambers. With the head upside down on a stand, you put a plexiglass piece over the chamber (with a fill hole in it) and fill it slowly with a colored fluid (I use red Marvel Mystery oil) out of a lab burette marked in CC's. If it takes 64cc to fill it up it is a 64cc chamber. Make sense?



Yes, by milling the head surface, you are reducing the volume of the combustion chamber.

I did not know that was possible! So if we play with gaskets and head work the desired 10.1 is still achievable correct? *fingers crossed*
Yes, that is what I outlined for you.

With your engine:
1. The new Dart 64cc heads combustion chamber volume should be around 64cc (but these vary & should be "CC'd" or measured.)
2. The head gasket I recommended adds 6.4cc
3. The .030" piston top to deck clearance adds 6.3cc
4. I estimate these piston valve reliefs add about 5cc

That all adds up to 81.7cc. You need to be around 75.5cc ... so the engine shop needs to mill enough off of your heads to get to about 58cc. This is very "doable" on this head. My only concern is going to be piston to valve clearance with your new cam.

If you're not comfortable doing this yourself, then I'd take everything to a good engine shop, so they can check it ... and flycut the valve reliefs deeper in the pistons if they find you don't have enough valve clearance.

If you want to learn ... I'll be happy to walk you through it ... but like all things in hot rod cars ... it may not be a "easy bolt on." If you need more valve clearance, the short block will need to be disassembled so the pistons can be set up in the mill & cut.

I measured the inside diameter of the header tube and got 1.5'' and down to the collector is 2.5''
If they are 1.5" inside & have .058 or .065 wall tubing, you have 1-5/8" headers. If you're really on a budget, they will work ok. Youdidn't say how long the tubes were or if the tubes are equal length. That would play a role in my decision to run them or not.

A suggestion is ... leave the headers alone for now ... get the engine altogether ... and if you have $ left, buy a good set of stepped headers, that start at 1-5/8" & step up to 1-3/4" with equal length primary tubes 32"-34" long. If you end up out of dough ... you can run these headers for a while ... they will just make a little less power.


As far as installing the cam degreed i will need a degree wheel correct?
Not necessarily. Comp Cams are accurate in their profile & the Cloyes timing gear set is accurate too. If you install the Cloyes timing set 4° Advanced, it will be correct in my experience with their products.

and to check the rest of the clearances I will require parts on hand.
You will need some clay or play-doh & a digital caliper.

I am not sure if I am missing any questions but if i am please let me know! hopefully this will turn out to be a bad ass little motor.
I have 2 concerns.

1. You don't have any experience at this, so I don't want you to make any mistakes. If you're concerned, you should have a local engine shop do the work. If you're committed to learning ... knowing you could make an expensive mistake ... I'm willing to teach you. But I can't be there to check things first hand.

2. That engine is DIRTY. It looks like it has been setting for some time unprotected. If that is the case, the shortblock needs to be disassembled, everything cleaned & properly reassembled. That would also be a good time to inspect the bearings, crank surfaces, and potentially do some other things to insure you have a good engine with no problems.

Again, If you're concerned, you should have a local engine shop do the work. If you're committed to learning ... knowing you could make an expensive mistake ... I'm willing to teach you.


Here are some pics

I look forward to your response! Thanks! (also if there are any ways to save a few bucks from my original parts list or any further recommendations let me know!)
I did not add up your parts list. That should be your next task. Get with Comp Cams & work out a detailed parts list, plus heads, intake, gaskets, bolts, oil, etc. ... price it all out from a vendor you want to work with ... and see where the budget ends up. I'm confident it's within the range we discussed, but you need a solid # to make decisions from.


also i posted a pic of the car when it was out. All original garage stored 54,000 km car is in perfect shape.
That baby is NICE. Love it. Can't wait to see it on the road.


Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Ron, Thanks again for your response.

Here is the backround on the motor. My dads friend had the engine built back in the day lets say in the 90's. I bought engine off him about 6 years ago, when i first recieved the motor i tore it all apart (but i left the pistons intact, everything else was completely disasmbled) I sent out the old heads for inspetion and had them decked everything was perfect as they already had been updated springs, guides ect.. i put it all back together i will upload pics tonight and drove the car for 3 months give or take ran great but i wanted more power. Sold al the new parts i bought (all the top end ect) and this is where it has sat for aprox 1.5 years. As you can see from the picture the cross hatches are still good when motor ran didnt burn any oil or any issues.

I have a few concerns. As with any build i know the unkown is always going to occur, if i get into bottom end tear downs from a engine shop the cost will skyrocket. (i am not sure the average cost for these tasks that i will require) would it be worth it to save this bottom end or save until next season and just go crate motor? I'd love to get it driving now though :(!

secondly as for potentially cutting up the pistons and cc'ing heads. would it be cheaper to just get new pistons?

As far as checking the piston to valve clearance it doesnt seem to difficult but spending this kind of money it would be wise to ensure a professional does that, although it would be VERY benifitial for me to learn for future.

Im excited but a bit scared in regards to all the machining, but i know it comes with the territory! I also cant see why there would be 2 different pistons if the engine was put together in a engine shop, and all the oil galeries have been de-bured and polished (under the intake) and i was (told) it was balanced but who knows people talk. i guess i learned my lesson!

Anyways, here is a picture as requested please let me know if i am missing anything or any recommended next steps.

Thanks again

that picture doesnt represent accuratly but the cross hatches are very visable in person

[Ron Sutton]

Ron, Thanks again for your response.

Here is the backround on the motor. My dads friend had the engine built back in the day lets say in the 90's.
Seems like yesterday.

I bought engine off him about 6 years ago, when i first recieved the motor i tore it all apart (but i left the pistons intact, everything else was completely disasmbled) I sent out the old heads for inspetion and had them decked everything was perfect as they already had been updated springs, guides ect.. i put it all back together i will upload pics tonight and drove the car for 3 months give or take ran great but i wanted more power. Sold al the new parts i bought (all the top end ect) and this is where it has sat for aprox 1.5 years.
That background helps clarify things.

As you can see from the picture the cross hatches are still good when motor ran didnt burn any oil or any issues.
Good.

I have a few concerns. As with any build i know the unkown is always going to occur, if i get into bottom end tear downs from a engine shop the cost will skyrocket. (i am not sure the average cost for these tasks that i will require) would it be worth it to save this bottom end or save until next season and just go crate motor? I'd love to get it driving now though :(!
That's the unknown. It has to be your call, because once you buy the parts, machine the heads, install the cam ... you're committed ... and will want to see it through. If you're confident in the shortblock, rock on. If not ... well ... that's got to be your call.

secondly as for potentially cutting up the pistons and cc'ing heads. would it be cheaper to just get new pistons?
You may need to do it with new pistons too.

Don't let "cheaper" be your deciding factor. You could throw some junkyard heads on there for cheap, but that doesn't sound like what you want.

Don't let $300 mess up a $3000 project, if you know what I mean.


As far as checking the piston to valve clearance it doesnt seem to difficult but spending this kind of money it would be wise to ensure a professional does that, although it would be VERY benifitial for me to learn for future.
This isn't hard. But the results may be hard to digest. You'll get 1 of 2 outcomes. 1 = good to go ... or 2 = need to take the short block apart & have the pistons flycut.

Additional Note: If this concerns you, and you decide under no circumstances do you want to take the short block apart, another option would be to go with a smaller cam, less compression & less power ... and you won't have to worry about the piston to valve clearance issue.


Im excited but a bit scared in regards to all the machining, but i know it comes with the territory! I also cant see why there would be 2 different pistons if the engine was put together in a engine shop,
This happens often if the engine builder is knowledgable enough about the parts to know that while they may look a bit different, if the pin height, dome shape, weight & clearances work, there is nothing wrong with it.

and all the oil galeries have been de-bured and polished (under the intake)
Cool.

and i was (told) it was balanced but who knows people talk. i guess i learned my lesson!
I'm not sure there is anything wrong to learn a lesson from.


Anyways, here is a picture as requested please let me know if i am missing anything or any recommended next steps.

Thanks again

that picture doesnt represent accuratly but the cross hatches are very visable in person

The cross hatch looks fine. Make sure every cylinder is super clean ... laboratory clean ... OMG clean ... wipe them down with WD-40 to prevent rust ... & just before you bolt the heads on for the final time, wipe the walls with a thin coat of motor oil.

[pro86tourn]

Okay, sounds good.. It seems the next steps are to pull the motor clean it up LAB clean..haha. I spoke with a great engine shop around here who has done lots of work for friends through my years growing up racing he agrees completely with your combo! Also he stated he believes i have nothing to worry about in regards to piston to valve clearance as long as i stay under .600 with the cam. Although i will 150% check it before the engine is put together!

So now I need to get a parts list together.

Edelbrock e-tec Heads -60975 (Switch to dart part #?)
Edelbrock Hydro Cam kit -22015 (Switch to Comp as stated)
Comp ultra gold roller rockers 1.5- 249-19001-16
Comp push rods (order after measured)
Edelbrock RPM air gap- 350-7516
msd 6al- 121-6425 (not sure how to connect this to my existing HEI MSD distributor)
holly ultra double pumper 650- 510-0-76650B
edelbrock fuel pump- 1721
ARP- 070-534-9701
moroso oil pan- 20170
fel pro- 375-2802 (Not sure which kit to buy-Also will buy head gaskets you recommend!)
edelbrock intake gasket - 7235

If there is ANYTHING im missing or stuff i need to add let me know please!

Pic of engine before in its former glory a year before tear down (put it all together when i was 18 myself)

[Todd in Vancouver]

That car is AWESOME! You are gong to have a really nice combination here and I'm looking forward to seeing the video where you fire it up for the first time.

Ron, you the man

[pro86tourn]

Thanks Todd, not to get off topic but i think maybe Ill share a bit of my story.

I bought my first Monte carlo i got at the age of 14 me and my dad drove down to maryland picked it up and it was a disaster paid $1500 and work and worked for 4 years drove it all through high school (swapped in new engine and 5 speed) we used the wrong throttle linkage and i took it for the 1st test drive turned left off my street gave it a big of gas throttle stuck wide open... i shut off the car stupid me instead of throwing it in neutral..steering locked brakes had no boost i went through a light post and a tree. 4 years of blood sweat and all my money... gone. this is now my 2nd monte 10 years after my first! im just dying to finally enjoy it for once... as they have always been my favourite car.

The interior picture is of my new monte just to show how clean it is! taken just after i swapped the 5 speed. other 2 pics are of my old girl.

warning the following imagines may hurt the heart

[Ron Sutton]

Okay, sounds good.. It seems the next steps are to pull the motor clean it up LAB clean..haha. I spoke with a great engine shop around here who has done lots of work for friends through my years growing up racing he agrees completely with your combo! Also he stated he believes i have nothing to worry about in regards to piston to valve clearance as long as i stay under .600 with the cam. Although i will 150% check it before the engine is put together!

So now I need to get a parts list together.

Here is your parts list ...

Dart Pro1 200 Aluminum Heads 64cc Part #11321112
*Complete with valves & the correct Comp Cams 1.47" dual springs for your cam
Click here for spec sheet
P.S. Your engine shop will need to mill them about .060" to get to 58cc.

Comp Cams Extreme Energy XR288HR (Hyd Roller for 1955-1998 SBC) Part #12-433-8
Click Here for Specs & Parts Needed

Comp Cams Lifters: Part #853-16
Comp Cams push rods: Wait until you assembly engine to get exact length
Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum Roller Rockers 7/16" Stud, 1.52 Ratio #1604-16
Cloyes Billet True Roller Timing Set #9-3500TX9

Edelbrock RPM Performer Air Gap #7501 (for regular SBC heads)
Holley 750 CFM Ultra Double Pumper #0-76750BK
Holley fuel pump #12-327-13
Moroso oil pan #20170 ... you already spec'ed this. Looks OK to me.

MSD 6AL #6425
Do you have This Distributor or This Distributor ?

ARP engine bolt kit #534-9701 ... you already spec'ed this. Looks OK to me.
Cometic Head Gaskets #C5877-030
Fel Pro Intake Gaskets #1205
Fel Pro Exhaust Gaskets #1205
Fel Pro Valve Cover Gaskets #1602
Fel Pro Oil Pan Gasket #1803 ... confirm this fits your block !
Fel Pro Engine Completion Gasket kit #2702

I think that's it ... except stuff like plugs, oil, filter, belts, hoses, etc.