1968 firebird 461ci stroker project

[Josue]

LOVE all the tutorials for the amateurs and newbs! Gives us reassurance that anyone can tackle projects like these!

The biggest single improvement was installing disc brakes on all 4 corners. The master cyl is a given because you can't use the drum master with disc brakes, so that doesn't count.



Going from 12" ls1 camaro brakes to 13" corvette brakes didnt change the feel any... maybe it's better but on regular tires you won't notice a difference. I did it mostly to move the caliper to the back and away from the sway bar... besides who can resist corvette brakes for that cheap...

I probably already know the answer to this, since I didn't see any mention of you wanting/needing to add a power booster, but are you happy with the pedal pressure with a manual disc setup? I plan on daily driving my 68 as much as possible next year, short of rainy days, but I'm having a hard time trying to decide between a manual C5/C6 setup, or a power OEM style 11" disc setup. Both are around $1200 total. I do a lot of spirited driving and hard/late braking, with plans for track days down the road, but it's still a toss up to me...

[lucky13firebird]

Yeah, thanks. Made it home safe after 40 hours of non-stop driving, fixing things and racing. Time for new wheels, the inside of this one is all messed up...

As far as the brakes, go big or go home, sure they used 11 inch brakes during the lemans races but they had the pads to go with them, and i'm sure those pads wouldn't be much fun on the street.

I've been driving this thing for 4 years now and have around 100,000 miles of seat time in it and i've never once wished for a booster for the brakes... drums, 12 inch disc and the current 13 inch corvette setup. My only gripe with the corvette disc brakes is now i cannot use my 98 camaro spare tire i keep in my trunk...

I guess i'll go buy a corvette spare tire and keep it there, if theres such a thing.

[Josue]

I wonder if I just have something wrong with my stock manual drum setup then, because from the time I get to the end of my driveway and beyond, it's pretty much a 2 foot operation to get the car to stop! Unless I'm just being a pu55y about it. lol I always just chalked it up to "that's the way she goes"...

I have concerns about the amount of vacuum needed for a booster too, whether or not my engine has enough now, or whether or not subsequent engine combos in the future would have enough.

Was there any difference in pedal pressure going from manual drums, to manual discs? Or, same amount of pressure needed, just stopped a lot better/quicker?

[lucky13firebird]

To be honest it kinda felt the same... the KEY difference was that if i was doing 120 and panic stopped with the drums, they would overheat and just coast once i got below 60 or so... and no amount of pedal effort would help at all.

Now with the corvette setup and the wilwood adjustable proportioning valve dailed in just right it stops so hard it makes me dizzy and stalls out the engine, not to mention my oil pressure drops to zero...

They really are good brakes. Just don't expect the feel of a rental nissan sentra or other small car, those are too touchy for my taste... and a big dissapointment when going down long hills.

The manual 4 wheel disc setup is nothing like that, in fact its the opossit, a little on the firm side, but consistant, and give you confidence even while flying down mountains in virginia ... they don't overheat. And yes, hit 'em hard enough and you can lock them up, just watch the middle of my last video during my autocross runs.

[Josue]

I gotcha! The more I think of it, and the more research I do, I may just try a manual C5/C6 setup first, see what it gets me. Worst case, I've seen a few people piece together hydroboost kits for relatively cheap.

You made mention to "other vendors" selling a kit similar to your front for cheaper than CPP? Who are they? The only one I've looked into was Kore3, and I get confused by their site. They make mention to AFX spindles and hubs so many times, I have no idea if they'll work with stock spindle/hubs, bunch of weird numbers (o325mm, o340mm??), and all they show in pics are rotors, calipers, pads, and brake lines....I know there's more to the installation than that! Hardware? Brackets? Bearings?

[Josue]

Also, can you point me in the direction of the "shim" needed to install the LS1 brakes on the rear? Is there any disassembling of the rear axles/housing needed? Or can I just pull my drum crap off, bolt a bracket and/or shim for the LS1 brakes on, caliper, rotor, maybe longer studs, and voila?

[lucky13firebird]

Gotta pull out the axles to instal ls1 brakes... no avoiding that. But its easy if you have a 12 bolt. Little different on pontiac boot in axles. Spacer is sold by brp hotrods and others too.

[Josue]

I have the original BOP 8.2 10 bolt with 2.56's, but I'm looking to upgrade for a little more giddy up on the street. Everyone on the Pontiac forums says the 8.2's are the worst option, but I'm not making any serious HP with my worn out 350, so the 8.2 should be fine for the time being. My neighbor has a 68 Camaro 10 bolt 8.2 with posi and 3.08's he'll sell me for $100, so it seems like the perfect time to add LS1 brakes prior to installation!

Still not much luck finding a inexpensive C5/C6 swap though, $700+ is the cheapest I've found so far. Kore3 says I need to machine my front drum hubs to fit a C5 rotor on, why didn't you have to do this with the new hubs that came in your kit? Were they specific to the C5 swap and were already machined? Or you did have to do it, but didn't mention in the video?

[lucky13firebird]

Turn down the drums yourself... and a used set of c5 brakes is around 400 bucks... plus the kore3 bracket... and some studs and brake hoses

[Josue]

Score.

Did you run into any problems with the size of the spacer in the rear with the LS1 swap? Or whatever one you ordered worked just fine? Just came across a thread on a Camaro forum, and everyone in the 4 page thread seemed to need/use a different thickness spacer in order to have the rotor in the right place...

[lucky13firebird]

Just a heads up, an alternative to the disc brake rear end dilemma is using an explorer rear end... exact same width as the 67-69 camaro and 95-01 came with posi, 373 gears 31 spline axles and disc brakes..... and can be had for 150-250 bucks.

They are a copy of the gm 12 bolt in practically every way except the rear cover. And plenty stout.

Besides that, i strongly recommend getting a 9 inch housing, and building it up. Disc brakes for them are 170 brand new from ford racing.

[Josue]

Explorers, eh? First time hearing about that swap. I was told to source a S-10 ZR2 rear end for those exact reasons...disc brakes, posi, and good gears, although 3.55 and up seem to be too much for my daily driving goals.

Doing a rear end swap like that, do the leafs bolt right up to the perches? Or would I need to cut my perches off and weld them on the new rear end? Leafs springs are probably leaf springs, all the same, but still has me wondering. Same thing with the driveshaft and yoke/u-joint...

[lucky13firebird]

Perches are 30 bucks, weld them on and be done, dont bother with your old ones. U joint adapters can be found for 1310 or 1330 u joint size as needed. I did the swap in my 68 mustang and was under 200 bucks with u joint adapter and new rotors just in case.

[Josue]

My local pull-a-part junk yard (you pull your own parts off) has about a dozen Explorers in those years at each of their 4 NE Ohio locations, so their readily available! I'll check into it more....thanks for all the advice!

[Josue]

I'm finally gathering parts for my disc brake swap, came across some cheap stuff locally! This place is about 30 mins from me...

http://www.clevelandpap.com/

So I hit them up asking if they could sell me a LS1 rear "kit", and he said they do it all the time. E-brake cables, backing plates, 2 left side calipers, and rotors/pads that are in good shape still that I'll likely reuse...all for $100! And I'm not sure why I didn't ask them when I was inquiring about the LS brakes, but while I was picking them up it hit me that, "duh, I'm doing C5 brakes up front, I'm SURE they have those here too!" $150 for a pair of front calipers with brackets, and they even came with EBC redstuff ceramic pads with tons of life left. Looks like all the bearings, brackets, and brake lines from Kore3 will be $199, then a pair of rotors and I should be set for around $400-$420 like you said!

Few more questions came to mind since reviewing this thread again...

The master cyl is a given because you can't use the drum master with disc brakes, so that doesn't count.

Which disc brake master did you use? Stock replacement? I heard new MC's are a pain to bleed, and that you need to/should bench bleed them first. Otherwise, you might be fighting a losing battle trying to get a good pedal feel after bleeding at the wheels.

You mention in your Firebird corvette swap video that the stock drum hubs do NOT need machined to fit inside the C5 rotor hats....do I have that right? But by your rear brake video, rear axles WILL need to be machined to fit inside the LS rotor hat?

Also, what lug nuts are you using? I need to find new ones for the wheels I bought, they're similar to yours in that the fronts are "sunken in" like that....I can't even get a socket on the lugs that are on the car now, they're just on there hand tight for now to see how they look.

[Hammered]

I did the LS1 swap 7 years ago and have never had an issue. I have quite a few details on mine here: http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com/chassis2.php I had the original 4-piston discs and drums and the LS1 brakes were a huge improvement.

[Gil]

Hi Josh, I'm in the process of doing a budget swap from a low vacuum brake booster (due to my big cam) to manual brakes. Talked a lot with Tobin@Kore3 & did a lot of search to find the good 1" bore Corvette MC P/N we need to complete, same part from different brands :

So for a 1" bore M/C:
68-76 Corvette with manual brakes
CARDONE 101371
RAYBESTOS MC36367
DORMAN M36367
AC DELCO 18M27 (18030269)

Bench bleed seems not a big deal, a few process vids on youtb
Hope this will help
Gil

[lucky13firebird]

Got a front spoiler installed, digging the way it looks. Blacked out the whole car... still lots to do for what i want to do with it

[Gil]

very nice !

[Josue]

Love front spoilers on these cars! Installed one on mine over the summer, really changes the look of the front ends!

They're supposed to be pretty functional too, driving more air into the radiator/engine.