Your ABS and Floater Solution

[CarlC]

I'll bet there's a performance target for the car to reach that will be better suited toward the C6 rolling element compliment than a TRB set.

[chicane67]

To add some other details and add some possible explanation... I'll hit a few points about its unique benefits.

Pricing and availability will be through a singular Dealer / Lateral-G sponsor in the near future... and I will be handling "special applications" on a limited basis.

Material options:
The housing and housing ends are available in standard 1020N (Y/S of 50k psi and a UTS of 63.8K psi) and optional 4140A (Y/S of 60.2K psi and a UTS of 95K psi) and 4130N (Y/S of 63.1K psi and a UTS of 97.2k psi) materials. The availability of the 4140A and 4130N is to allow the end user to weld on all 'like material' component hardware for suspension mounting, etc, and then have it heat treated as an assembly. These optional materials will yield a housing and connecting points far stronger than any "fabricated plate" type or other type housing on the market. Not to mention the weight considerations if your looking to loose a few pounds in certain components... which can only be had by utilizing thinner walled 4140 or 4130 materials with heat treating.

The housing is fixture and TIG welded and has available options for filler and drain bungs, a jack point and fluid cooling ports. Standard is a billet center section mounting flange. You also have the choice for a scalloped rear cover, the most typical used in the Ford 9" industry... or a round cover that can be used to facilitate easier mounting of Watts-Linkage points, etc.

The housing ends are one piece and allow for six different mounting/angle locations for the brake system. They also utilize all stock OEM parking brake system components (no modifications required, with the exception of using aftermarket wheel studs) and will accept all C5/C6 Y-Body OEM and all C5/C6 Y-Body aftermarket brake systems. All you have to provide is your rear rotor diameter at time of purchase/set-up.

Axle shafts:
All axle shafts are one piece, forged blank machined from HY-TUF. The engineered axle-shaft is a true "full floater" design... meaning, that you can pull the axle without removing the wheel assembly. Available options for this component are custom length, gun drilling and modifications for cambered/toe applications. I can do 300M... but in my 25+ years of drive-train development... 300M isn't a real good choice for torsional loading in more than a single direction, not to mention HY-TUF is more than adequate for any power and traction level used for any application used in this FORUM.

Bearing packs:
The bearing packs are OEM GM/SKF/ZR1 units. Available options for the bearing packs are the wheels studs, with the most common being 0.500" by 3.125" Bull nosed ARP fasteners. Other options include Center Lock spindle units and a future option that I'll talk about soon.

This housing is being set up for a Three-link / Watts-link application and a fluid heater and cooler:



This housing is being set up for a Four-link application and could be just as easily used for a leaf spring suspension:



Billet flange:

[CarlC]

Ohhh, you have me hooked. You used the "billet" word.... ;-)

[TheJDMan]

As you and others may know I am very fond of the floater concept so wanted to add some input, so please take with a grain a salt. The quality of your flange seems to be very nice, but I have to ask…..WHY? As I am not sure what has been solved here.

*C5/6 Hubs are VERY heavy (especially the SKF)
*C5/6 Stock Hubs have been known to fail
*C5/6 Hubs are NOT serviceable
*C5/6 Hubs are EXPENSIVE to replace and WILL NEED REPLACING
*C5/6 Hubs are only 28/30 spline and small diameter shaft.
*C5/6 Hubs are of poor design (VERY narrow bearing spread AND are located in-board of WMS)
*ABS can be worked into ANY design cheaply

Serious Off-road has all but done away with this weak style hub unit because of their weaknesses AND the cost to replace them when worn. Chevy/Corvette would do away with them as well but cannot due to the current suspension design (limited distance from steering knuckle face to WMS). So SKF did the best they could and increased flange thickness slightly, spread bearings slightly, and added 3 ball bearings to outer bearing to HELP combat the WMS flange ring from separating AND “ bearing play” from side loading due to poor bearing design.

So it is my thought that if you really run your car hard enough to experience “piston knock-back” and believe you require a “floater”, or run your car at speeds that you think would require additional safety of a “floater”…..somewhat like CORVETTE guys do, you will most certainly need to run the upgraded SKF Hubs to feel any sense of relief/safety. These much needed SKF hubs will run you nearly a $1000 for the pair with ½ -20 studs, installed, and shipped to your door! Not sure what your flange kit will cost…but sure seems like once you get the components needed to make this a marginally worthy performance floater, AND the initial cost of your flange kit….you could have a floater kit that is MUCH stronger AND can be serviced for pennies on the dollar compared to this C5/6 floater. So this idea would appear to the untamed eye to be slightly more affordable initially…….UNTIL its first servicing when the new hub units brake the bank!

I am not saying it will not work for some, but most requiring a floater are not mild cars, i just think that by the time you invest the money to make your kit strong (SKF) and the inevitable servicing cost, money would be better spent in other floater kits that are currently available. Just my $.02 from a consumer’s point of view and is not meant to offend you or others.

I have to agree!

[silver69camaro]

Cool, glad you were finally able to get that going. I've been meaning to get to it but honestly I've been "dealing" with the knockback and haven't machined the parts yet. Sure would make ABS setup much easier! One of these days I'll get to it...

[tyoneal]

Chicane:

The parts look terrific.

I have a 63 Grand Sport I am working on that has the Newman Creations IRS mounted into the chassis.

Is your ABS adaptable to it? Since it is a stronger Dana 44 type rear would I look for some OEM parts mixed with what you have put together?

Thanks,
Ty

BTW: Any rough pricing for
the Camaro Application?

Since many of the 1st gens are running Corvette IFS now would this be a automatic fit up the the C 6 architecture?

[andrewb70]

Chicane:

The parts look terrific.

I have a 63 Grand Sport I am working on that has the Newman Creations IRS mounted into the chassis.

Is your ABS adaptable to it? Since it is a stronger Dana 44 type rear would I look for some OEM parts mixed with what you have put together?

Thanks,
Ty

BTW: Any rough pricing for
the Camaro Application?

Since many of the 1st gens are running Corvette IFS now would this be a automatic fit up the the C 6 architecture?

Ty,

The Newman Creations IRS looks like a C4 Corvette setup. Isn't there a provision for ABS built into the C4 hubs?

Andrew

[tyoneal]

I'm guessing yes, however I'll get out there and verify it one way or the other.

The main issue I was thinking about was getting the computer that would control the ABS that wasn't depend any on a stock C4 CPU.

I was under the impression that one of the big hurtles on ABS was getting a controller that would work independently no matter what car it was installed in.

Is this incorrect?

On another note, the axels for the Camaro's sound like the hot set up.

A floater is what I was wanting in the Camaro anyway.

Thanks,

Ty

[BADDRIDE II]

[QUOTE=chicane67;870537]

These optional materials will yield a housing and connecting points far stronger than any "fabricated plate" type or other type housing on the market.

Curious as to how your stock type housing design is stronger than a "fabricated plate" design rear?



Available options for this component are custom length, gun drilling and modifications for cambered/toe applications.

Wouldnt camber/toe put additional stress to this already marginal bearing unit?



I can do 300M... but in my 25+ years of drive-train development... 300M isn't a real good choice for torsional loading in more than a single direction....

ALL elite offroad trucks/cars (Trophy,Truggy,Class 1,etc.) that endure more torsional loading (from ALL directions) than ANY other sport on the planet choose 300M for its unmatched strength....what do you know that these multi-million dollar teams dont?


These looked to be very nice rears, but a couple of these points you made I feel need a little more explanation. Thanks.

[Bryce]

300M can be heat treated to 300ksi, temper at 600F. ONE advantage is thicker forgings can be heat treated. Since its strength is 3 times that of other chromoly steels it can be gun drilled to a larger diameter and therefore lighter.

I do think that 300M is more brittle than other alloys. It is strong and tough with good impulse loads, I do not know how it will react to accel and decel forces back to back. Just like an aluminum center section is not suggested for street use, 300M axles are reccomended for drag racing by Mark Williams.

[BADDRIDE II]

300M can be heat treated to 300ksi, temper at 600F. ONE advantage is thicker forgings can be heat treated. Since its strength is 3 times that of other chromoly steels it can be gun drilled to a larger diameter and therefore lighter.

Good technical info....

I do think that 300M is more brittle than other alloys. It is strong and tough with good impulse loads, I do not know how it will react to accel and decel forces back to back.

As I mentioned in my previous reply, 300M has been proven in the most extreme of conditions....Trophy trucks! These trucks run serious HP with seriously heavy tires, these trucks are HEAVY! These very high HP trucks are OFF and ON the throttle the ENTIRE race (BAJA 1000,500,etc.), all while throttle/brake steering. These 300M axles are used because they are the strongest available and LAST. They are a NO compromise option. I have NO problem with "HY-TUF" and agree is adequit for most...but statements made in this thread that "300M is not a good choice for torsional loading in more than a single direction" is completely FALSE.

Just like an aluminum center section is not suggested for street use, 300M axles are reccomended for drag racing by Mark Williams.

They recommend it as their "drag" axle because it is their strongest option for serious racers that require elite strength/durability for high HP applications that will be dragging......not because they wont last in day in and day out useage.....but because they are strong enough to "DRAG".

[andrewb70]

Let's keep the pissing mach to a dull roar, shall we?

Andrew

[Bryce]

Trophy trucks break axles even during the race, they carry spares for that reason. So that might not be the best example when comparing to a street car that will see lots of miles.

The more ductile a material is the more fatigue cycles it can go through before breaking, when you increase the stiffness steels become more brittle and usually have a shorter fatigue life.

Andrew,

Sorry for getting off topic, maybe we should split this thread into "ABS and floater..." and "axle tech"?

[andrewb70]

......
Andrew,

Sorry for getting off topic, maybe we should split this thread into "ABS and floater..." and "axle tech"?

Hopefully people have said their peace and we can carry on. If further axle material discussions must be carried out, then another can be started.

Andrew

[SLO_Z28]

Has anyone done the math on how much the increased camber affects the stock C5/6 hub bearing life?

I cant imagine who in thier right mind wouldnt add camber when doing a full floater rear end, thats pretty much the point!

[andrewb70]

Has anyone done the math on how much the increased camber affects the stock C5/6 hub bearing life?

I cant imagine who in thier right mind wouldnt add camber when doing a full floater rear end, thats pretty much the point!

I don't think that this particular solution is designed to be used with cambered rear ends. Cambered rears don't require unique drive plates, but they do use crowned axles. On the typical circle track floater set-up, the driveplates are considered a wear item and are routinely swapped out due to wear. Clearly, you don't want the be replacing the ZR1 hubs on a regular basis.

Besides, there are plenty of reasons to run a floater, besides camber.

First of all, a separate hub is safer in case an axles breaks. With this setup if an axle should snap, the wheel and tire will stay safely attached to the rear end, which can't be said for conventional axle designs. This of course is not an issue with Ford 9" rear ends, but it certainly is a concern for stock GM rear ends.

The second reason is of course the brake pad knock back issue that so many struggle with. This is a problem for GM and the Ford 9" rear ends. This set-up takes care of that.

This set-up is designed to mount Corvette calipers or any brake kit that bolts to a Corvette. That opens up a whole world of standard brake kits without having to resort to making custom brackets, etc...

No set-up is ideal, but all solutions have their own merits that need to be judged on a subjective basis. Each buyer will have to determine what he must have, what he can live with, and what feature he can't live without.

Andrew

[SLO_Z28]

A c-clip eliminator set would solve both of those problems on a chevy rear end, and floating calipers would solve it on the 9 inch. I really dont see the point of a floating rear hub without added camber and toe? Its not like anyone on here is going to actually use ABS.

And no, you dont want to replace ZR1 Hubs, thats why you buy the SKF hubs at about $1000 or so, every C5/6 hub fails, every time. Its not if, but when, and its faster than it should be.

[andrewb70]

A c-clip eliminator set would solve both of those problems on a chevy rear end, and floating calipers would solve it on the 9 inch. I really dont see the point of a floating rear hub without added camber and toe? Its not like anyone on here is going to actually use ABS.

And no, you dont want to replace ZR1 Hubs, thats why you buy the SKF hubs at about $1000 or so, every C5/6 hub fails, every time. Its not if, but when, and its faster than it should be.

You can't say for a fact that nobody will use the ABS. Perhaps the reason that nobody has tried doing ABS up until now is because the supporting hardware, like this product, hasn't been there.

As for c-clip eliminators, everyone knows that they are not designed to handle the lateral loads that are experienced during road racing and auto-crossing. On top of that, they will eventually leak.

There is also the issue of a parking brake, which this product solves rather elegantly.

Again, different people have different preferences, for different features...

Andrew

[BADDRIDE II]

Trophy trucks break axles even during the race, they carry spares for that reason. So that might not be the best example when comparing to a street car that will see lots of miles.

What team broke a 300M axle? Are you really thinking one of our street cars will see stress even remotely close to a Trophy Truck....maybe you are not familiar with what I am speaking about? If you know of a Trophy Truck that broke an axle it was most likely NOT 300M my friend.

The more ductile a material is the more fatigue cycles it can go through before breaking, when you increase the stiffness steels become more brittle and usually have a shorter fatigue life.

Yes, and 300M is an ideal balance of all properties and is why it is a top shelf offering from all REAL axle vendors.
Andrew,

Sorry, but my BS detector was going off

[Bryce]

Trophy trucks break axles even during the race, they carry spares for that reason. So that might not be the best example when comparing to a street car that will see lots of miles.

What team broke a 300M axle? Are you really thinking one of our street cars will see stress even remotely close to a Trophy Truck....maybe you are not familiar with what I am speaking about? If you know of a Trophy Truck that broke an axle it was most likely NOT 300M my friend.

The more ductile a material is the more fatigue cycles it can go through before breaking, when you increase the stiffness steels become more brittle and usually have a shorter fatigue life.

Yes, and 300M is an ideal balance of all properties and is why it is a top shelf offering from all REAL axle vendors.
Andrew,

Sorry, but my BS detector was going off

I know what a trophy truck is, I helped build one.