DSE600 vs AGR box

[CarlC]

There does not appear to be any issues with the fittings. They were ordered at the same time as the box from DSE.

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks, Carl. I'll order a brass -6 fitting from DSE and give it a try.

[Rick Dorion]

The DSE fitting did not resolve my leaking problems. I spoke with Kyle and passed on some measurements I took that suggest too much clearance between the fitting end and the well it pokes down into, leaving much of the o-ring unsupported. Hence, my o-rings getting cookie-cuttered around the middle and not sealing. I bought one of the intial boxes made available. Kyle is going to check some of the boxes in stock and machine me some adapters better matched to what I measured. I'll post back the results.

[Steve1968LS2]

As a note, this thread inspired me to do a story and I learned a ton of info..

For a street car that is not going to hit the track much use the DSE 600 box. It has a great feel but in GM's effort to make it lighter the shaft is not nearly as strong. Under HARD driving it can deform! For 90% of the cars out there this is not a problem but you should know it.

If your car is gonna be a track star then the AGR box is the way to go. They are really into building race quality stuff and Matt at ARG says he is very close to having a fix for the weaker shaft on the 600 box (I assume a stronger shaft).. the AGR is top shelf parts.

I loved my 600 box on my 69, that was one fine unit and it felt great on the highway and driving around.. Just some info

[Q ship]

For a street car that is not going to hit the track much use the DSE 600 box. It has a great feel but in GM's effort to make it lighter the shaft is not nearly as strong. Under HARD driving it can deform! For 90% of the cars out there this is not a problem but you should know it.

Thanks for that Steve, I had heard some mention of this on a Jeep or off-road forum during a Google search, but I didn't know if it was true or not. Looks like I may go back to waiting in line for Lee. Has anyone here had a box Rebuilt by DSE?

[Blown353]

Is the 600 box deflection issue a problem with street tires, or only with super-soft road race compound tires and/or slicks on the front?

Also, what shaft deflects? The input shaft? The worm shaft? The output shaft? Is the flexing within limits (under yield strength of the component's material); i.e. with repeated flexing will it hold up and rebound, or will it eventually break?

I'd love to see some hard numbers on this, since I was ready to order a 600 box next week to replace my 800 box which is on the way south.

[David Pozzi]

I had Lee rebuild my old box plus the pump. The cost was about $600. and it took about a month.
I put tons of questions and info about how I'd use the car in a letter and sent it along with the box and pump. I also marked my box and that is the same one they sent back to me.

I got the box back with pump and no questions answered at all!!!
I asked things like cooling needed, fluid type, pulley sizes, filter needed, etc.

I called him on the phone and we must have talked for an HOUR! A REALLY nice guy to talk to.
I haven't gotten my car running to see how it is but if anyone can build a good box it should be Lee.
David

[Rick Dorion]

I too would like to see hard data as that's a pretty strong statement/recommendation to make. Has there been breakage?

[Steve1968LS2]

Is the 600 box deflection issue a problem with street tires, or only with super-soft road race compound tires and/or slicks on the front?

Also, what shaft deflects? The input shaft? The worm shaft? The output shaft? Is the flexing within limits (under yield strength of the component's material); i.e. with repeated flexing will it hold up and rebound, or will it eventually break?

I'd love to see some hard numbers on this, since I was ready to order a 600 box next week to replace my 800 box which is on the way south.

My understanding from Kyle and from AGR that this was only problem under hard racing conditions. I don't know if street tires would have enough grip to cause a problem. Funny, I don't remember what specific shaft it was.. ..

I still say the 600 box is a great choice for most cars that just occasionally see open track days.. Also, I sounded like AGR was close to offering a stronger shaft for the 600 boxes. Call them up, I got the feeling that they were more interested in giving out accurate info than in just trying to pimp what they sell.

[Steve1968LS2]

I too would like to see hard data as that's a pretty strong statement/recommendation to make. Has there been breakage?

I think it a simple physics deal.. there is a reason the 600 box is 6 lbs lighter than an 800 box. GM made these for SUV's and trucks so they didn't care about the stresses of hard cornering since the trucks would flip before it became an issue. For you average street car this isn't an issue either but could be in a race situation. Kyle at DSE was up on this was very upfront about it. It came down to the fact that race cars and street cars have different needs.

<-- still a fan of the 600 box (and mine never leaked)

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks much, Steve. I hope the new adapters Kyle is making solve my issue. Sure have gotten good at changing adapters quickly

[Steve1968LS2]

Thanks much, Steve. I hope the new adapters Kyle is making solve my issue. Sure have gotten good at changing adapters quickly

Im going to do some more digging tomorrow on this and find out if that shaft is indeed weaker.. I've talked to a couple people today that use the 600 box in some pretty heavy duty racing and they have had no issues.

I will report my findings

[JayBird]

I remember seeing some of the Cup and Grand National cars using (maybe they were just testing them) the 600 boxes, because it was lighter. I know Sweet Mft and CJR sell alot of PS boxes to the NASCAR teams. I wonder if they are making stronger pitman arm shafts?

[Steve1968LS2]

Hmmmm.. I asked around.. I don't think the shaft is a problem at all with the 600 box and that I misunderstood what was said to me.

What I heard is that the 600 box has a full size sector and a full size worm gear with a great valve. Weight was saved in the casing and valve housing. Also, the machining on it is very precise with very tight tolerences. I guess the concern I heard is that they are so close tolerance that when stressed they bind up and the sector shaft leaks. Also the ring they removed from the piston does not distribute the load force as well and they only use a single seal on the sector.

So, that is what I heard.. I would think you would have to be driving VERY VERY hard to distort the casing of the box. I suppose you would need to ask racers how the 600 boxes hold up.. maybe they use them and replace them a lot or maybe they have no or little issues at all.

I am still a big fan of the 600 box and love the feel it had in my car. Take this with grain of salt because it was just one persons opinion, I just wanted to make sure I had my ducks lined up.. the shaft of the 600 box IS NOT weaker.. they saved weight as mentioned.

I will run this by Kyle and get his take..

[Jeremy]

After getting some miles on the new box, I think it is an outstanding box for street use. It was a little stiff at first, but seems to have "broken" in a bit and I really enjoy it now. I replaced the upper arms with the comp units from pro touring f body and the car drives like a totally different car. The precision of the box with the added caster of the arms and I can point the car wherever I want it and it tracks where I want it.

Now I will most likely never see a formal track event, but for a street car that I will drive to shows wherever and have some fun with on back roads, I feel it is a great setup and well worth the money.

[Stargazer]

Any tips where to buy the AGR or 600DSE box near Orlando(Fl)?
I'll be there next week, for a holiday and hope to get one while in the US...

[CAMAROBOY69]

As a note, this thread inspired me to do a story and I learned a ton of info..

For a street car that is not going to hit the track much use the DSE 600 box. It has a great feel but in GM's effort to make it lighter the shaft is not nearly as strong. Under HARD driving it can deform! For 90% of the cars out there this is not a problem but you should know it.

If your car is gonna be a track star then the AGR box is the way to go. They are really into building race quality stuff and Matt at ARG says he is very close to having a fix for the weaker shaft on the 600 box (I assume a stronger shaft).. the AGR is top shelf parts.

I loved my 600 box on my 69, that was one fine unit and it felt great on the highway and driving around.. Just some info

Like always. Excellent write up and I also learned a lot from this thread. How about a write up or some information regarding their manual steering quick ratio boxes? Thats what I would probably be interrested in since I dont have power steering.

[CarlC]

Just a follow-up....

Saturday was the first time the car has been on the track since the -600 box installation. The box seems to have performed well. No issues noticed on the binding issue. The feel, effort, and feedback are much improved over the previous 12.7:1 low-effort box.

[Rick Dorion]

Carl, do you have lap time comparisons with the new wheel/tire package vs the old setup?

[Blown353]

My new 600 box should be here from DSE in a day or so, hopefully I can post driving impressions too. I'm going on a poker run this weekend, my Dad is already saying "we HAVE to be the first ones finished." So it should see some good use.

Mind you, it's a car and motorcycle poker run, but I'll still probably have the field covered.

Hopefully later this year (after I fit a better oilpan and get an intercooler and oil cooler installed) I can also provide a track report. Carl, I like what I'm hearing from your observations.

Troy