New Member - got a real question!

[Removed user as requested]

Hi

Im a member of dodgecharger.com (same user name) I own a 1968 Dodge Charger QQ1 blue.

I got this link from grking on cuda-challenger.com

Considering my plans totaly turned 180 degrees from a pro-street car to a serious handling car... I figured why not sign up and see, might get lucky.

Well... Please dont scan over the information as I will end up with the wrong response... please bare with me as this is whats going through my head and Id rather ask everything up front right away rather then make 10 replies asking bit by bit.

Heres the question.

Can a 1968 Dodge Charger be made to handle as good as a FORD GT40 (the 3" taller one GT) or even say the GTX1 (700 break horsepower version)?

I know the GT doesnt handle 'as' good as the Ferrari Enzo but after seeing Legendary make that super cuda i was cursed and had to know (thats actualy what made me forget all about pro-street). I know they tested that car on a circle track which really doesnt tell me much about hair pins/hammer head turns, S turns etc in a real circuit course or even road race. I also know in those kind of races you wont see 200mph as you have to slow down at corners... which then means the 1968 Charger with the recesed grill and bad rear window causing wind drag isnt that important as it wont see 200mph anyway on a circuit as such.

So what I wanna know is simply around the limit that would be used (150mph-180mph depending which track) can a 1968 Charger be made to handle that of the Enzo or GT40 (or inbetween the 2)?

I wouldnt want a response like "it comes down to the driver, or it means u need huge $$$ or anything" im simply wanting to know if I had 100 milion dollars could this be done or the shape of the vehicle has inherent problems which will limit the vehicle irrelivant of what gets done to it.



If anybody has used/has the level 2 xvmotorsports suspension system which is designed for the unibody... could that achieve this goal... or tube chasis is in order which then means all custom suspension parts made and then a 68 charger body stuck ontop of a enzo chasis pretty much... can it then handle or the shape of car wont allow it due to stuff?

I ask because I love my 68 Charger shape but I really want something that will handle like the super cars tested on topgear (Enzo, GT40, Zonda F etc) - If a real world race car driver such as the one they use was to drive this charger built at its optimum around their track... would it run in the time as that of the enzo and GT40 or would it be down further on the list because the car can NOT do it period.

I know I love the charger but I also love to have a car that you can seriously push limits in...

Is the charger a platform that this could be done with (given the $$$, tube chasis so on) or if im after that kind of handling then I should sell the charger and buy a dodge viper GTS and then modify that vehicle to enhance its handling to that of an enzo as the platform is designed aero dynamically and therefor it could do it while the charger could not do it.

This is why I ask...

Im caught between a huge decision.If the charger given right parts and dollars CAN handle at that level (meaning 2 worlds best race car drivers, 1 sits in the enzo or GT40 the other sits in my charger) and neither 1 can pull away from the other around tight turns, hair pins etc as they both handle equally... then that tells me the platform I have (1968 charger) can do the handling I want and therefor I will keep it and save up piece by piece over years. IF on other hand the platform I have can NOT do it even after huge dollars because the 117" wheel base and shape of it limits the vehicle irrelivant of what suspension is under there... then obviously a Dodge Viper (since I love Dodge) would be the platform I would need to start with and then save up bit by bit for that car to turn it into a car that can and will handle like an Enzo which then means I would need to sell the Charger and get the viper so that i have the correct platform.

I dont want to save up huge $$$ for the charger, throw it all in the charger, take it to a race track, give it to Schumacher to drive... then after he completes 10 laps he jumps in a ferrari and does 10 laps to only realise the time slip says the charger was 30 seconds behind if not more because it simply "can not do it" then i would be kicking myself cause I coulda got a viper and did that instead and then the time would be equal of the ferrari and stuff

Hope all that makes sense.

George

[Smock67]

I will say that anything is possible with the right amount of money. Many people on this site have race cars that are street legal who track there car as much as possible. While you may not be able to be perfect next to an enzo the performance and handling you can get out of your charger will probably amaze you. I would say keep your Charger and do it up PT style.

Obviously you love your car or you wouldn't be asking this question so give it the treatment it deserves which is going all out and show up the newer cars today and let them know that old school can compete just as good as the new school.

[Droolguy]

You could keep up with a stock Ford GT, anything can be built its just how much money are you willing to spend? I wont make any assumptions against the Enzo... You need to realize that the even the GT has a BIG advantage being much more aerodynamic than the Charger and it weighs a hell of a lot less.

Just for example an A-Body GM (Chevelle, GTO, 442), probably looking at $20,000-$30,000 in suspension/wheels/tires/rearend/bodywork/brakes, and another $10,000-$20,000 in engine and tranny work to make a solid contender w/ the Ford GT.

Your Charger isn't the typical Pro-Tour car and so the parts might not be readily available or cheap. So tack on a bunch of money for that too.

By the time your done you will probably have spent more than you would buying a used Viper or Corvette and building that.

Its far from being a cheap hobby.

EDIT:
Ferrari Enzo (Dodge Charger)
3010lb (4035lb)
651hp (230-425hp)
485ft/lb (340-480ft/lb)
6-speed (Not a 6 speed)
Ungodly downforce @ speed. (Actual LIFT at speed)

[Removed user as requested]

Thanks for that...

I understand the weight difference. I am talking a car with all alloy motor, all alloy parts, etc making charger 3200lbs (something compareable) and 700 break horsepower not 425 that it has currently...

Im just saying if weight and power were the same because u spent the dollars... can it compare or again no. Not top speed... simple race course (alot of turns) style driving. And Yes the car would be fitted with a 6 Speed manual gearbox also. I also figured on getting some custom metal done to the back on the charger... how it has that little lip on the rear to make it a bigger lip making more room for air to push against holding back down...

In short

The Stig (whichever pro race car driver that is) ran 1:19.0 flat with the Enzo ferrari on the topgear course. the Ford GT was 1:21.9

If the charger can hit between those 2... great... if not... irrelivant of whats done... I may be looking at a viper...

[Droolguy]

Yes, if money is not an object you could make it perform just as well as those cars... a 3200lb charger is going to be pretty cut up. I don't know if I would even call it a charger anymore at that point, more like a vintage SCCA Racecar.

Are you willing to basically destroy the car to get those kind of numbers is the real question... if not how far are you willing to go?

[Removed user as requested]

Yes, if money is not an object you could make it perform just as well as those cars... a 3200lb charger is going to be pretty cut up. I don't know if I would even call it a charger anymore at that point, more like a vintage SCCA Racecar.

Are you willing to basically destroy the car to get those kind of numbers is the real question... if not how far are you willing to go?

Well as far as I know the cars 3650lbs... its only 75lbs heavier than a 1970 Dodge Challenger (just more boxed air due to being 1 foot longer)

Parts ive considered (desire to have over the years)

550ci Hemi, mild cam, idles at 800-900rpm - 700bhp (alluminium block, water housing, heads, fuel pump etc - everything alloy) - this motor wont be any heavier (possibly lighter) than a 383ci (so you could knock off 200lbs just here)

Holley Ultra Dominator (full alloy carb)
Alluminium Manifold (custom made if need be for optimum desired torque)
Alluminium drive shaft
Alluminium Flywheel
Alluminium (titanium if alloy cant be sourced) Bolts for the entire vehicle (interior bolts, engine bolts, etc etc)
Got a metal engineer that can make me seat mounts (the things the seats slide on) in alloy
Alluminium frame for dash
battery in trunk

Coil over suspension which will save 150lbs in itself with race shock mono tube alluminium cylenders with race canisters
6 speed manual gearbox... gearbox casing alluminium.

Forged alloy wheels
Need a dana 60 suregrip to hold up the power I assume unless there is some sort of up there style diff Im un-aware off (like what on earth do ferraris use and lambos?)

I see minimum off 400 lbs taken off right there without cutting anything... just simply replacing steel with alloy. From 3650 down to 3250 at minimum no cutting up yet.

I personally believe 3100 can be achieved (mini tub to fit 345's) before getting into drilling holes and stuff to save weight. No options in the car though (eg: stereo, air con, power windows etc) I dont want any of that... rack and pinion steering to save some weight there and possibly manual breaks to save some weight there to... heard manual vs power breaks is no different in stopping except on your leg effort.

Considering this Im still running solid original steel panels and im down to 3200.

I dont wanna hack it up like ludacris... want the original metal panels so it still looks like a 1968 charger but when you look under it its all alloy, its tube chasis (if need be which again is lighter - with tube chasis i see 3100 if not less before hacking - unless this is classified hacked?) etc... but inside and outside from a distance all looks stock.. solid metal panels, inside same seats etc...

dunno.

[Droolguy]

*slaps forehead*

Sorry, your probably right with the curb weight... I grabbed the late models on accident.

Your not knocking off 200lb for the motor going from an iorn 383 to a 550 Aluminum I would be surprised if you netted more than 50lb out of that if anything at all.

Alluminium drive shaft

saves you 5-15lbs.

Alluminium (titanium if alloy cant be sourced) Bolts for the entire vehicle (interior bolts, engine bolts, etc etc)

5-10lbs.

Got a metal engineer that can make me seat mounts (the things the seats slide on) in alloy

2-5lbs.

Alluminium frame for dash

1-2lbs.

Coil over suspension which will save 150lb

... I doubt your leafs weigh anywhere near 70+ lb a piece. Lets cut that in half to about 75lb which is still a stretch.

6 speed manual gearbox... gearbox casing alluminium.

This really depends on the transmission. 0lbs.

Forged alloy wheels

40-60lbs if your using steelies and how big they are.

3650
0-50
5-15
5-10
2-5
1-2
75
40-60
=
3433-3522lb

Only thing left is having the control arms built out of aluminum, removing sound deadening, ripping out the interior, replacing the panels you can with fiberglass replicas, and hood and trunklid in fiberglass as well.

At that point it might as well be a race car.

[Removed user as requested]

*slaps forehead*

Sorry, your probably right with the curb weight... I grabbed the late models on accident.

Your not knocking off 200lb for the motor going from an iorn 383 to a 550 Aluminum I would be surprised if you netted more than 50lb out of that if anything at all.

saves you 5-15lbs.
5-10lbs.
2-5lbs.
1-2lbs.

... I doubt your leafs weigh anywhere near 70+ lb a piece. Lets cut that in half to about 75lb which is still a stretch.

This really depends on the transmission. 0lbs.

40-60lbs if your using steelies and how big they are.

3650
0-50
5-15
5-10
2-5
1-2
75
40-60
=
3433-3522lb

Only thing left is having the control arms built out of aluminum, removing sound deadening, ripping out the interior, replacing the panels you can with fiberglass replicas, and hood and trunklid in fiberglass as well.

At that point it might as well be a race car.

XV motorsports 71 Cuda with all original steel panels (including hood and trunk lid) came in at 2989lbs

Charger is not more than 200lbs heavier (stock vs stock) and they didnt even go to a tube chasis.

well il be back after weekend... hopefully more people chime in with there thoughts and experiences with there own pro-touring muscle cars. Thanks for the comments though, appreciated.

[Droolguy]

Your welcome.

I am coming from an A-Body standpoint but the Dodge might shed weight easier, never know.

I don't see you getting over 500lbs off the car while leaving the interior intact, keeping the steel, and no cutting.

Good luck though, I will eat my words if you can do it.

[paul67]

Rack and pinion steering should loose a few pounds,change seats remove rears , switch to plex glass side windows ,carbon fiber hood ,wings ,trunk,and alloy prop.

[Bill Howell]

First, welcome to Protouring. I am a member over at dodge charger . com too, but not much protouring info over there. Nothing wrong with that, but just not much info when you get serious about performance and corners.

I have posted pictures of my 72 charger build there, but you may have missed it.
I have done the total Stage II XV front and rear suspension, 14" brakes, 6.4 late model HEMI, TKO 600, on and on.
The car is no GT40 and will never be, it is too heavy. When finished, my car came in at 3840+/- pounds. This is about what it weighted from the factory, and is really nose heavy, an issue that is hard to change with the massive frontend hanging in front of the front wheels. There are ways to lighten up the car, but it will lose the street car feel. I have to have all the comforts of home, like the new GenIV vintage air. I would not change much on my car, but just don't want to mislead you into thinking you are going to build a supercar.
Now, if money is no problem, then you can do whatever you want, up to graphing a GT40 underpinnings to a Charger, but WHY?
Bob Johnson had Alan Johnson build the ultimate G-force Cuda a couple years back, with a budget of $1M+. The car was unbelievable in every way, but could it complete with a GT40, both on the track and street? Even if it could, it was about 4 times the money and beyond the reach of most of our budgets. I have watched the series on the Super Cuda by Legendary. I am impressed with the build for sure, but would love to know the true budget on that car. Remember, your car, by nature weights more than the Cuda and that is hard to overcome.
Protouring, like anything is a compromise. You have to decide what it is you are really wanting to build/drive and go for it. You will get plenty of suggestions, ideas, but in the end, you have to have a budget, and plan in place before you start or you will be unhappy with the finished product. I have ended up with about $75K in my car, probably the most expensive third gen on the planet, BUT, I love the car and it surprises anyone that sees it in action or drives it. Some of the leaders in this hobby have driven the car, way more qualified than I to drive, and all love the way that boat handles, turns and runs. That to me is all the proof I need that I did it close to right with the budget I had.
I would be happy to share any info you need or answer questions you have about the build.

[Bill Howell]

XV motorsports 71 Cuda with all original steel panels (including hood and trunk lid) came in at 2989lbs

Charger is not more than 200lbs heavier (stock vs stock) and they didnt even go to a tube chasis.

well il be back after weekend... hopefully more people chime in with there thoughts and experiences with there own pro-touring muscle cars. Thanks for the comments though, appreciated.

I researched all these numbers too before I started. I searched the net and came up with a baseline number on my car, from factory specs of 3600#s. Surely that number was wrong, must have been for a 6cylinder or something without A/C or maybe even both. I know I shed 300 or more pounds between frontend swap, engine swap, radiator, rear suspension, A/C swap, etc. The only extra weight I added was a Rollbar hoop,simple sound system (in trunk) and power driver seat. However, scales don't lie and I was still over 3800# when we finished, so I am WAY OFF the XV cuda weight, by 800+ pounds. Weight your car now to get a baseline, but I really don't think you will be anywhere close to 3200# when you are finished.

[Young Gun]

Welcome, and good luck with your endeavor. You can absolutely build something to kick ass on the track and street but be prepared to spend a pretty penny! post up pictures and start a build thread if you get a chance!

[Grancoupe]

Not sure about a 68 Charger but an E-Body has beams in the doors that are worth 23 lbs each. I took them out of my doors without hurting the them. Easy way of loosing 46 lbs. Have pics if you interested.

[mc84_zz4]

Nothing to add but a comment:
I think the originality of a highly capable classic has a cool factor off the charts.
Anybody with deep pockets can go buy a McSupercar, and if you are lucky the prancing horse guys may lease you a F- car...
But knowing your car can blow away most anything next to it is priceless, and certainly cooler IMO.

[Restomod]

Just my .02 but just because they got the Cuda up to 200+ mph does not mean it will keep up with a Exotic Supercar on a track. This guy is about as close as it gets http://www.glennbunch.com/

I (in my .02 again)think that the goal of having a old car that has the same level as a pair of cars like you mention is a VERY LOFTY goal..............And will come with the VERY VERY LOFY price. The Ford GT at about $140k would seem like an absolute BARGAIN!!!!!!!

[MonzaRacer]

As for a guy who sat in a GT 40 and a Ford GT, the interior space want what I would expect, as for building a dodge product. I had as my first car a 66 Dart GT, slant 6 auto.
Now wish I could find one as I would absolutely rebuild it as Pro-touring as mine had the rear frame repaired from rust and we got rid of mine because of front rust.
As for me a tight all aluminum LSx/Keislers new no clutch 6 speed and most likely an independent rear suspension built off of a Corvette IRS but use a DANA 60 center.
My second choice would be a well thought out 400+cube single or twin turbo SB Chrysler or maybe a Viper engine.
As for suspension air ride from RideTech all the way. You will never get ride and handling from coil overs. You get a mix of both.
As for an Enzo your talking an F1 car with a body around it.
Heck if you want stupid money fast throw it at a Ultima.
If you want a cool Charger , build it up Pro-Touring and make it run hard and drivable at same time.
Heck they had a guy build a Charger t orun Maxon and he was like 3rd or 4th fastest ever, spent like $750k to do it and then drove it to a trailer. The car sold for like $125k and its getting a much better rebuild so it can drive.
But last Iheard an Enzo is $1.1 million a car.
You can build a one off tube chassis NASCAR style yet bent towards turning left and right, install air ride over springs and build a tight twin turbo engine, heck I would put the engine program would only run around $50k-$100k to science out how to get that lap time from.
BUT if you want a fast, fun, one off, driveable Charger,,,, heck it would be super cool.
My thoughts would be decide on best tire/wheel package to do the job, then set back the engine/trans using alloy engine over cast iron, make it a 2 seater of course, then tie it all together with the rest of the car.
Figure fiberglass/Carbon fiber body parts.
If I had my druthers I run Air ride, ATS spindles and custom chassis melded into the stock "tub" and a modded IRS in back, since cars is wider than vette in my mind(no tape measure or cars to measure) so fitting it in but maybe build a Dana 60 center (yet Vette rears have been ran with twin turbos for years).
A real aggressive twin turbo engine would make it tight and fast.
Keep it low and clean and it would run like stink. Would it run with a Enzo(re bodied F1),,,who knows,,,,hope ya got a lot of cash.
Me I would build the best handling Charger (or Dart for me) ever and drive the snot out of it.
Italian cars dont impress, and as for a Viper, id rather drive my Cavalier.
The Viper I was in last had $20k in chassis work and a single turbo and was the peakiest POS I eve3r rode in. It needed anothermonth on chassis dyno.

[Removed user as requested]

Thanks for all the feedback. Ive decided to stick with the 68 Charger as Im sure it can be made given the right $... i mean... build the chasis like a go-kart to handle and then just bolt a charger body ontop.

I know I want an aggressive looking car and well... charger looks like that. Wife and I go camping so i need boot (trunk for the americans) space for iceboxes and such (definately wont fit them in no viper) and when boot fills up I still got back seats where to fit more if need be. Also its more fun building something with my own selected parts than what the factory gave u already done...

Considering that...

Im gonna buy the XV1 motorsports kit (bolt in package) and enjoy the car as is... they did do 1.0G sustained on a skid pad with that kit... so thats already above average performance. Also will get a firm feel stage 3 box unless someone here knows of an awesome quality rack and pinion power steer box that does not lose turning radius and also feels firm as I cant stand the butter feel of power steer... will put that and the XV1 kit in the trunk before it gets here to save $ on shipping. Save up for a Hemi... drop it in and keep having fun with the xv1 kit until I can afford (if ever) a tube chasis... if not... at least a 6 speed can go in. Still will be awesome with that kit.

Thanks for the feedback.

If anyone else cares to share any light on the subject... welcome.

[tyoneal]

Well as far as I know the cars 3650lbs... its only 75lbs heavier than a 1970 Dodge Challenger (just more boxed air due to being 1 foot longer)

Parts ive considered (desire to have over the years)

550ci Hemi, mild cam, idles at 800-900rpm - 700bhp (alluminium block, water housing, heads, fuel pump etc - everything alloy) - this motor wont be any heavier (possibly lighter) than a 383ci (so you could knock off 200lbs just here)

Holley Ultra Dominator (full alloy carb)
Alluminium Manifold (custom made if need be for optimum desired torque)
Alluminium drive shaft
Alluminium Flywheel
Alluminium (titanium if alloy cant be sourced) Bolts for the entire vehicle (interior bolts, engine bolts, etc etc)
Got a metal engineer that can make me seat mounts (the things the seats slide on) in alloy
Alluminium frame for dash
battery in trunk

Coil over suspension which will save 150lbs in itself with race shock mono tube alluminium cylenders with race canisters
6 speed manual gearbox... gearbox casing alluminium.

Forged alloy wheels
Need a dana 60 suregrip to hold up the power I assume unless there is some sort of up there style diff Im un-aware off (like what on earth do ferraris use and lambos?)

I see minimum off 400 lbs taken off right there without cutting anything... just simply replacing steel with alloy. From 3650 down to 3250 at minimum no cutting up yet.

I personally believe 3100 can be achieved (mini tub to fit 345's) before getting into drilling holes and stuff to save weight. No options in the car though (eg: stereo, air con, power windows etc) I dont want any of that... rack and pinion steering to save some weight there and possibly manual breaks to save some weight there to... heard manual vs power breaks is no different in stopping except on your leg effort.

Considering this Im still running solid original steel panels and im down to 3200.

I dont wanna hack it up like ludacris... want the original metal panels so it still looks like a 1968 charger but when you look under it its all alloy, its tube chasis (if need be which again is lighter - with tube chasis i see 3100 if not less before hacking - unless this is classified hacked?) etc... but inside and outside from a distance all looks stock.. solid metal panels, inside same seats etc...

dunno.

==================================
Something I would like to know.

Since your not a professional driver, and most likely will not be anywhere on the scale as a good Le mans driver, would it be satisfying to be able to make your Charger beat any/most GT 40's, or Enzo's your likely to come up against on a open track day?

Now if the answer is yes, then your answer is easy, fix up the Charger.

First, fix up your Charger, and REALLY learn to drive it.

If you do these things you should be able to realize you desire of beating a GT 40 or a Enzo, plus you would make a couple guys feel VERY LAME.

Surely this would put a big grin on your face, and you'd be able to keep your car.

Think this over and post back.

Ty

[wmhjr]

Good luck with your project! There is no doubt in my mind that you can drastically improve the performance of that Charger. It's gonna be REAL expensive but it ought to be an interesting and challenging project. I have my doubts that you'll be able to make it the equal of an Enzo or GT40 without totally butchering the car - the physics in my opinion just don't add up. To me, you need to not only shed weight, but you have to MOVE weight. The balance of that car is far inferior to an Enzo or GT40.

One word of advice from the voice of experience. Saving up and getting parts over a long period of time sounds easy. Problem is that you're talking about a very intrusive build, with lots of non-original components. Changing one can easily result in issues with others. You're really going to have to be extremely dilligent about having an extremely detailed plan and sticking to it. It may mean sacrifices in one area in order to satisfy constraints in another. The longer the build takes, the more difficult it's going to be. Just my personal experience. Even my present build, which is almost done and is taking about 18 months, caused me some issues due to the time lapse. It's not a big deal when you're staying somewhat "standard" but when you start really cutting - which is what you'll be forced to do - it gets crazy fast.

Again, good luck. The kind of build you're thinking of separates the men from the boys.