New Member - got a real question!

[Removed user as requested]

Thankyou.

It doesnt need to keep up with an enzo (bugatti Zonda F etc) as who on earth even has one in australia for me to ever see??? I dont even think those cars exist here. At best I have seen Gallardo's on the street, Ive seen my old favourite Lamborghini Diablo SV (the 1996 around that era model... the traditional square front car *drools*) and ive seen plenty Ferrari 360's (those style) umongst more than ample Porche's

If it can handle with those (slightly better as these are below that of the GT) will be good enough for me. With 700hp... I dont see the problem comming out of the corners *grins*

Again...



Anyone know of a rack and pinion steer box equivalent to a firm feel stage 3 box? Rack and pinion = lighter and provides more space... problem I heard is rack and pinion loses turning circle over that of manual steer box... so who makes an awesome quality ferrari rack and pinion power steer that does not lose turning circle and whole thing made off aluminum if possible...

I want to buy this and stick in the car before car gets here to save on shipping cost.

Thanks

[Motorcitydak]

Well I believe that you are a copier, but thats ok since immitation is the most sincere form of flattery (jk dude, good luck). I am assuming that you read some of my stuff on DC.com about what I am planning for my car. I would seriously consider the Hotchkis TVS for your ride. The front end is awesome. It does keep the stock PS box, but no one makes a good rack for our car. I am planning on using most of the TVS parts on my car for the front end (except the sway bar because of my 315 front tires).

I always get grief for it, but my target weight is sub 3000#. As you may know, I have fiberglass front fenders and lift off hood and will be using a bare bones interior with fiberglass dash. Like you, I do not care for the weight that a/c comes with and it will not be driven in the winter.

I am not sure about the rear end yet. I am currently considering an IRS, but again, Im not sure. I do say tho that we have to race when our cars are done. I look forward to seeing some progress on your car since Im always at work and have not even seen my car in a month, even tho its in my back yard.

Just incase you have not heard my plans yet, I have a '68 Charger that will be using the fiberglass front end, Hotchkis front end and tubular K member from Mancini, 5.7 Hemi and 545rfe, stripped interior, 315 30 18's on all corners, battery relocation, ISIS electrical system, minimal sound system and still cannot decide on the rear end.

BTW, unisteer is the only company to offer a rack and pinion steering setup for our cars and stay away from it from what I have heard. Also, I did not know you are on the other side of the world from me. I guess our cars will never meet unless you plan on a trip to the woodward dream cruise...

[barraza]

I wouldnt want a response like "it comes down to the driver, or it means u need huge $$$ or anything" im simply wanting to know if I had 100 milion dollars could this be done or the shape of the vehicle has inherent problems which will limit the vehicle irrelivant of what gets done to it.

I ask because I love my 68 Charger shape but I really want something that will handle like the super cars tested on topgear (Enzo, GT40, Zonda F etc) - If a real world race car driver such as the one they use was to drive this charger built at its optimum around their track... would it run in the time as that of the enzo and GT40 or would it be down further on the list because the car can NOT do it period.

I know I love the charger but I also love to have a car that you can seriously push limits in...

Lots of things come to mind here related to sows ears and silk purses, and comparing apples to oranges.

Bottom line is that a charger will never beat an enzo around a road course, unless the charger is essentially a race car, which the enzo is not. Don't get confused between a good STREET car that "you can seriously push limits in" and a race only vehicle. A nicely done charger can be a fun street car, an enzo is a nice street car, neither is a RACE car. Tracking a car is not racing.

A good racing design book will give you all the reasons, but basically a charger comes out the loser when race prepared because of total weight, polar moment, c.g., wheelbase length and aerodynamic issues. A couple of those you can modify, but some you are stuck with.

Sure, if you had 100million, you could beat an enzo around the track with a race charger, but what would you prove? A race charger can beat a street enzo? Apples and oranges

[silver69camaro]

Anyone know of a rack and pinion steer box equivalent to a firm feel stage 3 box? Rack and pinion = lighter and provides more space... problem I heard is rack and pinion loses turning circle over that of manual steer box... so who makes an awesome quality ferrari rack and pinion power steer that does not lose turning circle and whole thing made off aluminum if possible...

I want to buy this and stick in the car before car gets here to save on shipping cost.

Woodward Power Steering makes probbaly what is the highest quality, most tunable R&P around.

I'm not going to get in deep with this thread, but you'll never come close to a Enzo in terms of downforce and aero effects. That pretty much kills the whole deal right there.

[Removed user as requested]

Enzo was 19.0 flat around the track... the Ford GT was 21.9 (almost 3 seconds slower). If it can be made to run with that, good.

At least to be on par with Gallardos and porsches etc (doesnt have to be on par with the super-super car like enzo, veyron and so on) at least the standard ferrari 360's gallardo's marcieneglo's diablo's, porsche 911 carreras, Porsche GT3's etc. If it can hold with those... perfect.

I will check out woodward. Thanks for that.

[MoparCar]

G-man,
I'm a member over on Cuda-Challenger also where you posted this too. I agree with the majority here. I don't believe you can get close to those numbers with the Charger. All of those cars are purpose built cars. Basically a detuned race car. If you do go for it, all you will be doing is bolting/welding on a Charger body to a world class chassis. If you want to get an idea of what needs to change just do something very simple and put the car at roughly a 4" ride height and mock up the desired tire size. A whole lot of items need to get cut away and built new just to get the center of gravity very low and have tire clearance. A complete new custom chassis is required at minimum. Art Morrison makes a very good chassis to do this with, but even at that you will need a very high amount of structural work to go with it and as good as AMEs chassis is, it comes with a weight penalty. XV components tend to have a higher ride height also if you look at their pictures of previous builds. This may be due to stock constraints or tire clearance.

Items like shocks are not just a $400/pair deal at that performance goals. Then there are clearance issues if you set it low with engine/hood, etc.. Also the weight distribution needs to be near perfect. Again a purpose built car.

I agree with Bill Howell---build it with Pro-touring in mind. Keep some comforts and live with a fun, high performance, great handling car that will run with most normal sports cars.

Not saying that you can't do it with high goals and a very large budget, but you'd be economically a lot better off buying a used super car to come close. Ferrari, Porsche, etc.

How many hours did they say they had in the Super Cuda? IIRC it was something like 7000? If so do the math on just the labor. Wow.

If you go for it good luck and post some pictures and progress and of course track times!

Wes

[Removed user as requested]

7000 hours was put in that cuda but from what I remember it was due to the fact the car had a lot of body work that needed doing to make it a 'show' car. All the rust repair etc they did... Mine wont need any of that... but even if the desired goal could be achieved for about $200 000.... thats out for me. Im guessing around 100 000 max (30 000 for the hemi, 12 000 for the 6 speed gearbox, 15 000 for rear end + wheels and tires + tubbing to fit 345's in the back unless I just go with my original plan and stick Hoosier pro-streets on at 395 in the back - 29x15.5x15 wheels and keep that real muscle look that im finding it hard to get away from) = 57 000 total.

Tube chasis I got from Johnsons Hot rodding shop that built that G force cuda (the red 1) - 20 000, thats 77 000. 5000 for breaks = 82 000

Now the breaks wheels tires tubbing, rear end, tube chasis 6 speed and 550ci 700hp motor is in it for 82k.

Now Im just left with shocks 4000 = 86k

Now all thats left is some good suspension to go under there... even if its 20k worth of good suspension thats 106k total...

A dodge Viper to get in australia would cost 120 000. I got a full done car here for less than that and its my charger. I dont see where on earth else is there to burn 300 000???????

Cheapest way to get something that will handle with or above Nissan's and Toyotas etc and maybe on par with standard type ferrari's and lambos would be the XV2 kit I assume for not a HUGE amount of $$$. I know whats going in first...

XV1 - Kit. 1.0G sustained on skid pad. Thats already high end considering ferraris themselves dont do stuff like 1.5 etc..

With an XV2 Kit would be braught up to 1.2-1.3G sustained which I think is on par with euro cars (just not the high end sort like enzo's)

2nd - Manual gearbox - 6 speed hopefully otherwise A833 OD...

3rd 550ci Alloy Hemi cranking out at a mild build 700hp.


So to me XV1 kit first... enjoy the cars substantial increase in cornering performance... then get rid of the automatic in it and stick the manual in which will keep the car real fun to drive even with the 383ci... and then save up for the hemi to have a "hemi" and to have that power. Then finally I can start thinking about what to do, tube chasis or XV2 kit or possibly even "XV2 kit rear... XV1 kit can stay in front" least this way ive been driving it and having fun with it and with time decide what exactly I want out of it... it may even stay XV1 kit considering it is primarly a street car.

Its just nice to know what I can/Cant do. I still think Chargers are the best car in the world even if it cant cause it just looks like u dont mess with it and no other cars replace the sound I love out of these resonating against all that metal... *drools*

Thankyou again for all your feedback guys. Its nice to be on this forum... variety of cars, its not just 'dodge charger' or 'cuda/challenger's'

The variety makes it exciting. Chevelles, 67 type corvette stingrays - muscle - (and the later sports car type models), Pontiac GTO's, Judge, Firebirds, Dodge Chargers, Plymouth Roadrunners, GTX's, Coronets, Chevy Camaros and so on... it makes it more special owning a particular car when theres variety... when your just part of the same make car forum its kinda 'yeah everyone has one' feeling cause the forum is designated for that car alone.

THis site is great.

[Motorcitydak]

If you want to cut more weight, check out VFNfiberglass.com They have a bunch of fiberglass parts for our cars that will cut about 200+ pounds off the car, depending on what you use from them

I have talked to the guys at Hotchkis about the E Max Challenger they built, they told me there are plans to do some controlled testing in January-February. They do not know what kind of lateral G's it will pull yet. Their complete front end is around 1500, then 1350 for the tubular K member and then the firm feel box. Im going to use the power box even tho it weights a lot. I just think that steering effort would be way too high with a quick ratio manual box or rack. A power rack would be nice tho. BTW, the Hotchkis kit comes with beefed up steering links. They also put a steering quickener in the steering column, leaving the firm feel box with its stock pitman arm.

[mikedc]

You might find this weight breakdown interesting. It's for a 68/69 Charger.

The numbers are mostly ballpark guesses and certainly not exact or anything. But the net total adds up somewhere near the final correct curb weight. I've personally handled all these parts at least once or twice over the years, and I am fairly certain that none of the numbers are too wildly off the true figures.

A lot of the individual large items/frames/casting weigh less than the figures here, but the "little stuff" on all those sub-assemblies really adds up too.

-------- -------- -------- ---------- -------- --------


69 Charger component weight estimates
　
I think the 2nd-gen unibody shell itself is something like 1200 lbs. But that's a very rough estimate.

fenders - 45 lbs each
hood - 50-60 lbs
Trunkild - 30 lbs?
bumpers & brackets - maybe 25 lbs at each end
Front valance + lights, etc - 10 lbs
grille (whole assembly) - 40 lbs?

steel door shells alone - 45 lbs ?
(doors - probably 60-70 pounds each by the time they have the glass & hardware & vent windows. )

Windshield + rear window + rear side window glass + regulators, etc- maybe 150 lbs ?

rear axle (8.75" with no brakes) - 160 lbs
Dana 60 rear for these cars - 210 lbs
Driveshaft - 15 lbs?
rear leaf springs - 70 lbs/pair?
(entire unsprung rear end with brakes, wheels/tires, and leaf springs - 300+ lbs?)

front K-frame, with the LCAs, strut rods, swaybar, steering linkage, etc - ? - probably over 120 lbs
stock power steering box - 40 lbs.
(front susp total here + 100 lbs for the wheels & brakes/spindles = 260+ lbs?)

Brake pedel assy + power booster + MC + prop block - 40 lbs?
steering column & wheel - 25 lbs?
under-dash heat/AC box - 20 lbs?
Taillight assy’s - 25 lbs?

front buckets - 35-40 lbs each ?
dash subassembly (with instruments, vents, dashpad, etc) - 50 lbs?
rear bench - 25 lbs?
Carpeting + other various insulation - 35 lbs?
Center console + shifter assy - 25 lbs?


* * * total so far = around 2700 lbs for the rolling chassis with no drivetrain * * *

BB wedge motor - 625-675 lbs
727 tranny - 120+ lbs?
battery - 50 lbs
Spare tire - 30-40 lbs
Jack + tire iron - 20 lbs

* * * total = around 3600 lbs without any of the fluids * * *

[MikahB]

This is a bit of an old thread, but I thought I'd throw in my $0.02.

I think your goals for performance are admirable, but wholly unrealistic (that the Stig could whip your Charger around and be competitive with a GT40 or an Enzo). As was mentioned earlier (barraza was right on), there is a WHOLE LOT more to going fast on a road course than total weight and total HP.

That said, why not make your goal to maximize the handling that IS achievable with your car without hacking it to bits? I've raced against some very sweet full tube-frame but stock steel bodied muscle cars on track, and though they're very cool to look at and fast down the straights, they cannot brake, turn, or accelerate off a corner like a modern car with fully independent suspension, etc.

So, plan a progression of performance and push a little at a time on swapping out good ol' Charger parts with go-fast bits until the changes become intrusive to how you want to enjoy your car - you'll be surprised how miserable of a ride it can be with a big motor and no insulation/carpet/heat shield/etc.

Good luck with your build, I'm working on a '70 Charger project that should handle reasonably well but also cruise the family around in comfort and safety. When I really wanna go fast and beat up on Porsches, I hit the race track in a race car.