GM - Bankruptcy?

[Nicks67GTO]

A couple points here,
First off, the guy was overpaid to start with. He is just now starting to come in line, but not there yet. Yes it sucks, but it is what it is.
Second, why do you think that everything is so freaking expensive?? Because of cheap labor? I don't think so! Things are more expensive there BECAUSE of the union. People make more money, so the cost of living goes up, simple logic here.

I have said before, I would not be so opposed of the union IF and ONLY IF you got a superior worker......ie, you get what you pay for. But that aint the case! you usually get "that aint my job" or the whole seniority thing. You also have basicly a legal mafia so to speak. You want to see a small riot? Bring in "scabs" to replace the "union" workers and see what kind of violence happens, from the "union" side. And usually nothing is done about it. Pretty crappy IMO

This whole thing is not just UAW's fault, nor is it just GM's fault, it is just a combination of bad decisions, for a long long time.

Bailout? No, shouldn't. But yes, will be.

Maybe everyone needs to look at it in a different light. Maybe part of the problem is that the consumer wants things as cheap as they can get them. They dont care about where its coming from. Maybe one of the biggest problems is that companies continue to ship jobs out of the US so they dont have to pay people a decent wage and benifits just so that more americans will buy cheap ****. We as a country are cheaping ourselves to death. Its a monster that cant be stopped though....because no one is willing to buy american products that cost alot more. Now as far as the explaination of cost of living goes, i have to say thats a little too basic. Youre trying to tell me that the recent housing boom and fall, the cost of oil, the price of gas, the cost of energy etc etc etc has not played into the cost of living? Come on man be serious, thats not the unions fault....

[Damn True]

Let me give an (extreme) example whether you're union, non-union, or just a schlep trying to live somewhat comfortably. Almost everyone should be able to relate to this.
You haven't recieved a pay raise in 3+ years, the cost of everything (food, energy, health insurance, etc.) has gone up to the point that you're barely scraping by. And now, the company you work for wants to cut your pay by 10-20%.
How eager would you be to do that?
And, how much more would you be willing to give up before you said enough is enough?

See there's a part of the problem that "the rest of us" have with the Unions. None of us are assured a job at all, let alone routine cost of living increases. I live in the Silicon Valley. I got laid off in 2002 on the tail end of the .com/post 9-11 bust. At the time I was making some pretty good coin. Jobs at that level of income for what I do simply went away. I still worked in my field, but did so at roughly 60% of what I was making before because that was the state of the market. Around this time last year I changed jobs and I am now back to the same income level that I was at 6 years ago.

People don't have a RIGHT to a job. They don't have a RIGHT to a given standard of living. And they sure as hell don't have the RIGHT to dictate to the rest of the American populace what ought to be done with their tax money to protect either.

[Damn True]

I think the problems ARE political, especially since you have guys on here talking about how 401k is adequate for retirement, and that it's ok that in most homes both parents have to work. That's why America is on the decline in the first place.

I worked retail for 9 years and only earned 7k between company contributed 401k, MY contributed 401k, profit sharing, and stock holding. In the end of all that it came out to not even a thousand dollars a year. How the hell are you supposed to retire on less than $1000.00 per year?

I've worked both ends of it, and yeah, maybe the auto workers aren't a "skilled trade" like the tinners or plumbers, etc. and maybe they shouldn't make as much, but people quoting $75/hour are not talking about take home pay.

But I'll keep my mouth shut so you don't have to close the thread and I'll go elsewhere.

Mathius

You are supposed to educate yourself, find more lucrative employment and earn more. Or work more than one job.

[EFI69Cam]

Well, it seems I may have been incorrect. Though I am certain concerning my recollection that there were 2 different standards on early pollution controlled vehicles, I cannot find proof and thus will retract my assertion. However, I will say that the intent of the Congress was certainly to "scold" the domestic auto makers as the quote below shows.

The 1970 CAA Amendments represent a congressional shift in auto pollution law from flexibility to stringency. Senator Muskie opened the debate stating, "Detroit has told the nation that Americans cannot live without the automobile. This legislation would tell Detroit that if this is the case, they can make an automobile with which Americans can live" (source: http://www.answers.com/topic/nationa...dards-act-1965)

Worse, the timing of the implementation of both safety and emissions standards, and the near simultaneous occurrence of the various oil crisis most definitely uniquely hurt the domestic manufacturers.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

I seem to recall that domestic cars had mandated equipment whereas imports only needed to meet a standard. I have seen pleny of late 70s early 80s imports without EGR or smog pumps.

[chicane67]

Until we all take time off from our personal lives to stand on the doorstep of the people in charge of everything that is wrong, it won't change.

Until we all realize that the people who are charge will not stop doing what they do, until we physically stop them... it will continue.

Were being sold out by our own complacent selves.

Uhm... Jim Nilsen for President in 2012 !!

Facts are facts... and you cant argue with the God's honest truth when stated like that.

[Tony_SS]

You are supposed to educate yourself, find more lucrative employment and earn more. Or work more than one job.

No, you're not supposed to invest in the Ponzi scheme because when you go to cash in, after taxes, and the invisible INFLATION tax you net about .20 on your invested 1.00.

[toxicz28]

See there's a part of the problem that "the rest of us" have with the Unions. None of us are assured a job at all, let alone routine cost of living increases. I live in the Silicon Valley. I got laid off in 2002 on the tail end of the .com/post 9-11 bust. At the time I was making some pretty good coin. Jobs at that level of income for what I do simply went away. I still worked in my field, but did so at roughly 60% of what I was making before because that was the state of the market. Around this time last year I changed jobs and I am now back to the same income level that I was at 6 years ago.

People don't have a RIGHT to a job. They don't have a RIGHT to a given standard of living. And they sure as hell don't have the RIGHT to dictate to the rest of the American populace what ought to be done with their tax money to protect either.

I never said the example was a union thing, but a worker thing. I never said anything about a right to a job either. I gave an example. And since you were the first. Put yourself in that position and tell us. What would you do under those circumstances True?

[James OLC]

I'm not going to answer for True but if I were in that postion (and I have been) I would find a new job. I don't understand why that seems like a foreign idea to some - ultimately your earning potential is limited by no one but yourself.

With respect to the actual prospect of GM declaring bankruptcy - I think that it is probably time but unfortunately, based on the news today, I don't think that it is going to matter:

From CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Obama is creating a task force to oversee the restructuring of the auto industry, a senior administration official said Monday.

General Motors and Chrysler LLC face deadlines Tuesday for submitting plans to the administration detailing how they can turn themselves around.

The task force will include members from the Departments of Treasury, Labor, Transportation, Commerce, and Energy, the National Economic Council, the White House Office of Energy and Environment, the Council of Economic Advisers and the Environmental Protection Agency, the official said...

link: http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/16/news...ion=2009021611

"oversee the restructuring of the auto industry"... ummm... that sounds pretty broad... and maybe a little more aggressive concept than is neccessary...

Likewise, the makeup of the panel seems like there will be too many interests who will be competing to be heard, most probably to the detriment of the industry.

I guess that we'll see what happens tomorrow.

[Twentyover]

I seem to recall that domestic cars had mandated equipment whereas imports only needed to meet a standard. I have seen pleny of late 70s early 80s imports without EGR or smog pumps.

I belive that all cars needed to meet the same standards, but imports utilized different technology to achieve the same ends. For instance, Nissan utilized acoustic tuning in lieu of an air injection pump to get air into the exhaust manifold. Detroit embraces one technology, imports another, all achieving the same goal.

I don't believe that there is a rule or law that says "An engine built by a Detriot manufacturer needs an air pump." If so, where are the air pumps on 2.9 and 4.0L cologne V6 engines? If you truley believe this rule exists, I'd like to see it in thr Federal Register.

[Twentyover]

Going to go out on a limb here,and take a position no one else seems to get.

In the first and second quarter 2008, everything was fine. The wages weren't too high, the imports weren't smarter- the UAW had agreed with the Detroit automakers to start the VEBA program (reducing legacy costs)- all was on course to get at least GM and Ford profitable by 2011 or so.

Then, the implosion in the credit market occured in parallel w/ the evaporation in housing values. GM's problems were't it was paying it's hourlys too much, it's that they we building cars to stock and not selling anything.

IF this was a wage issue, WHY are Toyota, Nissan, and Honda bleeding red ink?

This is, IMO, strictly a sales issue. The banks screwed w/high risk securities, got themselves insolvent, stopped loaning money, so nobody can buy cars.

Meanwhile, the Detroit boys have huge payrolls and capital costs that need tobe met.

And that is why GM and Chrysler, and toa lesser extent Ford, are needed to kowtow to the Feds, who screwed up by not regulating the damn banking industry.

And why I'm sitting on my can looking for work now.



Probably off topic, and probably going toget myself talked to by the mods

[James OLC]

...all was on course to get at least GM and Ford profitable by 2011 or so...

Fundamental economic fact #1 - if your business is not going to be profitable for three years or so, and you are going to be bleeding cash at remarkable rate during that same time - everything is not fine.

[chicane67]

...The imports weren't smarter-

WHY are Toyota, Nissan, and Honda bleeding red ink?

Because in a sense... they actually are smarter.

[Twentyover]

deleted

[Damn True]

I never said the example was a union thing, but a worker thing. I never said anything about a right to a job either. I gave an example. And since you were the first. Put yourself in that position and tell us. What would you do under those circumstances True?

Uh....change line of work? Move? Get a second job tending bar? Go back to school?

Note: none of the above require help from a nanny state or socialistic union.


......to which you are likely to reply something in the vein of "easy to say, but what if you own a home or blah, blah, blah..."

To which I will pre-reply, "Too f-ing bad. You gotta do what you gotta do to take care of your family. It's your obligation not that of anyone else."

[shmoov69]

Maybe everyone needs to look at it in a different light. Maybe part of the problem is that the consumer wants things as cheap as they can get them. They dont care about where its coming from. Maybe one of the biggest problems is that companies continue to ship jobs out of the US so they dont have to pay people a decent wage and benifits just so that more americans will buy cheap ****. We as a country are cheaping ourselves to death. Its a monster that cant be stopped though....because no one is willing to buy american products that cost alot more. Now as far as the explaination of cost of living goes, i have to say thats a little too basic. Youre trying to tell me that the recent housing boom and fall, the cost of oil, the price of gas, the cost of energy etc etc etc has not played into the cost of living? Come on man be serious, thats not the unions fault....

You are absolutely correct on Americans cheaping ourselves to death. I have said for along time that WE (Americans) have sold ourselves out for the sake of "cheap". 100% true Who's fault first? I dunno, maybe the govts for letting the "fair trade" be......well........UNfair!

Now the cost of living "example", yes it is VERY basic. But I was comparing what you said about Detroit (I'm assuming) cost of living compared to Trey's (I think) cost of living, and how it was higher in MI. I STILL believe that the "difference" IS the unions fault. Go to almost any area that has a big union force and compare it to an area where there is not a strong union presence, the difference in cost of living is drastic. All the other things you mentioned raised the cost of living on EVERYONE, not just the unionized areas. But the "spread" is still there.
Don't know if that is any clearer to what I am trying to say.

[Damn True]

You are absolutely correct on Americans cheaping ourselves to death. I have said for along time that WE (Americans) have sold ourselves out for the sake of "cheap". 100% true Who's fault first? I dunno, maybe the govts for letting the "fair trade" be......well........UNfair!

Now the cost of living "example", yes it is VERY basic. But I was comparing what you said about Detroit (I'm assuming) cost of living compared to Trey's (I think) cost of living, and how it was higher in MI. I STILL believe that the "difference" IS the unions fault. Go to almost any area that has a big union force and compare it to an area where there is not a strong union presence, the difference in cost of living is drastic. All the other things you mentioned raised the cost of living on EVERYONE, not just the unionized areas. But the "spread" is still there.
Don't know if that is any clearer to what I am trying to say.

Remember that what a house costs is often not at all related to what it is worth. Houses more so than nearly any other thing cost what the market will bear. If incomes are high, so are home prices. Because if people have the money to buy them....they will. The problem in MI is that you have a lot of people who are earning double or more what they are worth. If the auto plant job goes away there is no f'ing way for them to get another job at the same pay. Because they are not worth that much money. They are under skilled and overpaid.

Thus those people absolutely NEED the union to continue to beat the automaker into submission. They are dependent on that teat because they build lifestyles around an income level that they cannot generate on their own. It's a classic tenet of the Marxist philosophy to make the worker dependent on the state. In this case the state is the Union. But if we don't collectively pull our heads out, before too long we'll have a majority of people dependent on "The State" that isn't a state sitting next to the Potomac.

[WS6]

I'm not going to answer for True but if I were in that postion (and I have been) I would find a new job. I don't understand why that seems like a foreign idea to some - ultimately your earning potential is limited by no one but yourself.

With respect to the actual prospect of GM declaring bankruptcy - I think that it is probably time but unfortunately, based on the news today, I don't think that it is going to matter:

From CNN


link: http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/16/news...ion=2009021611

"oversee the restructuring of the auto industry"... ummm... that sounds pretty broad... and maybe a little more aggressive concept than is neccessary...

Likewise, the makeup of the panel seems like there will be too many interests who will be competing to be heard, most probably to the detriment of the industry.

I guess that we'll see what happens tomorrow.

This is scary. Considering the changes Obama has already made to other industries ie banking and all Federal works projects it wouldn't surprise me to see them nationalize some part of the auto industry. Britain did it and it's a huge failure yet no one over here cares. Japan did a huge bailout of their economy in the 90s and it didn't work there either. We did it in the 30s and it didn't work yet FDR is heralded as having done something amazing. Seriously, as one of the younger people in this thread (28), I don't think most of you can understand how I was never told the truth of things. In school, I was taught FDR and his programs saved the country. In school, I was never told blacks owned slaves. Just last week I learned the first person in this country to sue over the ownership of another human being was a black man. A black man was the first slave owner in this country. How does this have anything to do with this post? We ignore the truth because it's too hard to handle. We go down the road others have gone before ignoring their warnings or not caring what happened to them as if it will be different for us. How hard is it to see that many of the ideas that are being proposed to fix the problems we are having have been enacted in other countries and have failed miserably? I'm going to have ot agree 110% with what Jim has said. Very well put Jim.

The one thought that was put out during the first bailout talks that really scared me was the repeated line about the auto makers need to build cars that people want. Who is going to decide that? Will it be "the people" or will it be a group of people who convinced others to give them power yet have never shown that they desrve it or could earn it? What are these people qualifications to make such decisions?

We can talk about what got us here all we want. It's important to know so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. However, the more important thing to pay attention to is the response or responses that we will get for this "crisis". The future lies ahead and the ideas that are forming about it are not too pretty if you ask me.

[Nicks67GTO]

Then, the implosion in the credit market occured in parallel w/ the evaporation in housing values. GM's problems were't it was paying it's hourlys too much, it's that they we building cars to stock and not selling anything.

Great point! This exact same thing is what about killed John Deere in the early 80's when ag went to crap. They were running tractors off the line as if there was no problem and thinking they would be selling them soon.... then no one bought. Now we only make a tractor if its already sold. Maybe GM, Ford and Chrysler will have to do more of this type of thing somehow

[Damn True]

Great point! This exact same thing is what about killed John Deere in the early 80's when ag went to crap. They were running tractors off the line as if there was no problem and thinking they would be selling them soon.... then no one bought. Now we only make a tractor if its already sold. Maybe GM, Ford and Chrysler will have to do more of this type of thing somehow

Well that is an interesting point. I think a lot of people yearn for the days when they could order a car or truck with exactly the list of options they wanted. Mini does this right now, though you can buy off the lot as well. People didn't seem to mind the wait back then and Mini sure isn't having trouble with the model.

[Nicks67GTO]

Remember that what a house costs is often not at all related to what it is worth. Houses more so than nearly any other thing cost what the market will bear. If incomes are high, so are home prices. Because if people have the money to buy them....they will. The problem in MI is that you have a lot of people who are earning double or more what they are worth. If the auto plant job goes away there is no f'ing way for them to get another job at the same pay. Because they are not worth that much money. They are under skilled and overpaid.

Thus those people absolutely NEED the union to continue to beat the automaker into submission. They are dependent on that teat because they build lifestyles around an income level that they cannot generate on their own. It's a classic tenet of the Marxist philosophy to make the worker dependent on the state. In this case the state is the Union. But if we don't collectively pull our heads out, before too long we'll have a majority of people dependent on "The State" that isn't a state sitting next to the Potomac.

I guess I understand what you are saying about guys putting screws in cars being unskilled workers. They are "unskilled" in a worldly kind of way, i mean they havent gone to college right? And that in itself automatically makes you a skilled worker right? Well if you ask anyone thats been to college the answer is "yes." The most entitled a-holes ive ever seen are kids right out of college that think they have the world by the sack because they got a degree. You talk about people that feel entitled? College grads are right up there.....