Halogen/HID FACTS!!

[GetMore]

Steve, for the most part you are correct, but I'm not sure you're 100% there. I have a set of "E-code" lights on a car and HIDs installed in them, and it's got a great cutoff and does not light the trees. The E-codes are completely different from the old DOT light pattern.
I do not doubt that my setup could be illegal, and that just installing HIDs into regular lights will put the light everywhere and effectively blind not only other drivers but yourself. The only thing I'm disagreeing on is that not all halogen-based reflectors are inappropriate for HIDs.

Maybe I'll stop down one day and see what you think of my setup, so you can see it for yourself and tell me if I'm right or wrong. Then we'll both know. ;)



BTW, I was thinking of converting my old Hella DOT legal E-code style lights to HID, but I am waiting for an actual legal HID setup to come out. I think we're both on the same page for that, we want proper cutoff and beam spread, so you can see safely and not blind other drivers.

[Steve Chryssos]

Steve, for the most part you are correct, but I'm not sure you're 100% there. I have a set of "E-code" lights on a car and HIDs installed in them, and it's got a great cutoff and does not light the trees. The E-codes are completely different from the old DOT light pattern.

I'd love to do the comparison. Easy enough to find an abandoned road and swap out bulbs. Then just use a camera on a tripod. Comparing photos is best. The breadth of this issue is astounding. Your experience fits squarely into the gray area. To me, there's just no reason to go there again since halogen lights work so well. I just prefer to keep halogen bulbs in halogen lamps.

[dipren443]

Steve,

Are your kits going to include relay harnesses? Whats the expected price point? I was going to build my own relay harness, but if a kit were reasonable enough, I would consider it.

Also, just looked at the H9 bulbs. They are single filament. What are your plans for high beams?

Nick

[Sparky67]

Also, just looked at the H9 bulbs. They are single filament. What are your plans for high beams?

Nick

Nick,

This is Steve's kit from another post in the past.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=43201

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro

[MuscleRodz]

Simple reason that they are illegal is because DOT says they are unless they came in the vehicle from the factory. Very reason why we opted not to sell HID kits over a year ago. Short search on DOT lighting regs will spell it out. Also not all capsules are DOT approved either so you have to be careful there as well. The ones that aren't don't have the correct reflector pattern. Driver may just get a ticket, a company selling them could be served with severe fines. Also why we won't sell clear taillight lenses either.

[Damn True]

Simple reason that they are illegal is because DOT says they are unless they came in the vehicle from the factory.

Say no more. A $25 fix it ticket is one thing. Someone getting his business taken away is a whole 'nuther deal.

Also why we won't sell clear taillight lenses either.

Well.......also because they are wicked ree-tah-did.

[Flash68]

Well.......also because they are wicked ree-tah-did.

Haha. I agree. But I prefer we-todd-it.

[dipren443]

Nick,

This is Steve's kit from another post in the past.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=43201

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro

Thanks for the link Jeff.

Although it did sound like Steve was referring to a more universal solution and mentioned sticking with Hhalogens. Also, I am assuming they would want to target a kit to replace the 7" sealed beams to broaden their market. That kit with the projectors is absolutely sick, and hidden behind RS doors works, but wouldn't work for most of us.

Also, I really have no issues with building my own halogen based kit. But if someone were to offer a nice kit with a custom relay harness, I would be all over it.

Nick

[Steve Chryssos]

We don't sell standard diameter headlights, but I'll work up some Hella part numbers for you shop around. Relay kits are available, too.

[dipren443]

We don't sell standard diameter headlights, but I'll work up some Hella part numbers for you shop around. Relay kits are available, too.

Ehh no worries. I am pretty familiar with all of this stuff. Just gotta get off my lazy butt and do it. Its going to be one of my winter projects.

[Rhino]

I'd love to do the comparison. Easy enough to find an abandoned road and swap out bulbs. Then just use a camera on a tripod. Comparing photos is best. The breadth of this issue is astounding. Your experience fits squarely into the gray area. To me, there's just no reason to go there again since halogen lights work so well. I just prefer to keep halogen bulbs in halogen lamps.

Unfortunately I have no pics to show, although I did do this exact same comparison (e-code vs DOT lenses) when I did a halogen swap into my Wrangler. I compared both road illumination and projection onto an unlit wall. The e-codes have a much more dramatic cut off on the wall, and project most of their light toward the road.
When using the same headlight aiming the lights are much less distracting when viewed from 100 yards out. This makes a huge difference in a lifted vehicle. I have not tried this with a car yet.

The reason for this difference in lens design is most European signs are self lit. Here in the US we rely mostly upon headlight illumination and light reflection for overhead signs.
From my research so far, E-code and DOT approved lenses are mutually exclusive.

[dipren443]

Unfortunately I have no pics to show, although I did do this exact same comparison (e-code vs DOT lenses) when I did a halogen swap into my Wrangler. I compared both road illumination and projection onto an unlit wall. The e-codes have a much more dramatic cut off on the wall, and project most of their light toward the road.
When using the same headlight aiming the lights are much less distracting when viewed from 100 yards out. This makes a huge difference in a lifted vehicle. I have not tried this with a car yet.

The reason for this difference in lens design is most European signs are self lit. Here in the US we rely mostly upon headlight illumination and light reflection for overhead signs.
From my research so far, E-code and DOT approved lenses are mutually exclusive.

The cutoff on E-codes is nearly linear. They do have a kickup on the passenger side of the car for illuminating signs/side of the road. The light output is so much more focused in the right place for driving.

The cutoff resembles something along the lines of this: ___/

[Steve Chryssos]

Apparently, the mixed HID/Halogen setup will dump a ton of light directly in front of the car. Objects in the distance are poorly lit. Hazard levels therefore increase with speed since it's harder to see what's coming down the road. And with a ton of light directly in front of you, is there a false sense of security?
I'm sure GetMore is right about different reflector/lens combinations yielding different results. But here, now? Message boards are a form of public record. Post a response for one member and others get to benefit from the information. And pro-touring.com does a better job than most when it comes to weeding out the gray area. With that said, "Just Say NO" seems like solid ground--especially since halogens work so well.

[Rhino]

With that said, "Just Say NO" seems like solid ground--especially since halogens work so well.

With that said, it should also be noted you'll exhibit many of these similar traits with most cheap housings/lenses regardless of the light source.

[Steve Chryssos]

Oh yeah. Vinnie's car has a set of halogen lights with plastic lenses and plastic reflectors. They fill up with moisture. And the blue tinted bulbs? Useless. The perfect upgrade for a 17 year old ricer.

Hella baby! Glass lens WITH optics and an aluminum reflector. Made by Germans. Beer swilling Germans (I think?)

[neki67]

Deleted. > Should have read Steve's link in the original post first!

For what it's worth; I use Hella E-prove H4 headlights and bulbs and am very happy with their output!

[Sparky67]

As a matter of fact HID conversions are allowed here on cars being built before 2006, after that they need to have automated height setting.

HID conversions are not legal in the USA, but there are companies that sell them. The fine is really steep for the companies that sell these kits. I read on one forum that it was $10,000 per kit sold.

http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?id=57682

Government Clamps Down on HID Conversion Kits

NHTSA Does Not Recognize “For Off-Road Use Only” Disclaimer

As SEMA has reported in the past, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is targeting high-intensity-discharge (HID) conversion kits for enforcement actions.


The NHTSA has concluded that it’s impossible to produce HID conversion kits (converting a halogen system to HID) that would be compliant with the federal lighting standard, Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 108. The non-compliant kits frequently include an HID bulb, ballast, igniter, relay and wiring-harness adapters. The NHTSA believes this equipment presents a safety risk to the public since the kits can be expected to produce excessive glare to oncoming motorists. In one investigation, the NHTSA found that an HID conversion headlamp exceeded the maximum allowable candlepower by over 800%.



Halogen equipment uses an electrical current to heat a metal wire-coil filament to incandescence, while the HID conversion-kit’s light source incorporates a discharge arc to produce light. HIDs require a ballast for operation. Under FMVSS No. 108’s Section S7.7 (replaceable light sources), each replaceable light source for headlamps must be designed to conform to the dimensions and electrical specifications for the headlamp source it is intended to replace. For example, if an HID kit is marketed as replacing an H1 light source, then it must match the H1’s wire-coil filament size and location, the electrical connector size and location and the ballast design for use with an H1 light source (which is impossible since there is no ballast). Consequently, companies that are manufacturing HID light sources (e.g., D1S, D1R, D2S, D2R, 9500, etc…) with incandescent light-source bases (e.g., H1, H3, H7, H8, H9, H11, H13, HB1, HB2, HB3, HB4, HB5, etc…) should be aware that this light-source design would not be one that conforms to FMVSS No. 108 and could not be imported and sold in the United States without violating federal law. (The importer is treated as the manufacturer and subject to the same fines and penalties that apply to a domestic manufacturer.)


The NHTSA has also determined that a commonly used disclaimer “for off-road use only” has no legal meaning and is not recognized by the agency, as the manufacturer, importer and retailer are not in a position to control use once a product has been sold. Any equipment offered for sale that is covered by FMVSS No. 108 (headlamps, taillamps, side markers, etc.) must comply with the standard
On a related topic, the NHTSA has also stepped up enforcement against restyled combination lamps that are missing required functions existing on the original-equipment lamps. This would include replacement front- or rear-combination lighting equipment that does not have a required reflector, amber or red light, no “DOT” marking or mismarked wattage. The issue is the same: Any equipment offered for sale that is covered by FMVSS No. 108 must comply with the standard.


SEMA is working with the NHTSA to ensure that the aftermarket lighting-industry’s perspective is heard and, simultaneously, to remind its members to obey the current rules of the road. In this fashion, SEMA members can continue to offer a full range of cutting-edge, compliant motor-vehicle lighting products.

[ProTouring442]

The reason HID retrofit kits are not legal, at least as far as I understand it, is that DOT requires HID lights to be self aiming. If you watch a new car with HID lights, when turned on the lights do a cool little dance, first down, then up.

I will be running Hella E-codes, though I would prefer the Cibbies. Cibbie are very hard to get however.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

[Steve Chryssos]

HID conversions are not legal in the USA, but there are companies that sell them. ....

In Rene's case (Neki), "here" means Europe. The NHTSA policies are appropriately harsh. If you're selling HID conversions then, you're either ignorant or unscrupulous. Given those two choices, ignorant is a compliment.

I think I'll "vent" Vinnie's plasticky leaking headlights with a chop saw and hang what's left on the wall. Then I'll do an Auto Zone halogen swap using Hellas or PIAA's. Glass lenses with optics, aluminum reflectors and all. I know Hella has relay wiring kits and so does Painless, so I'll order up the right part numbers and post itemized results here. Won't be 'til after SEMA.