Dog box conversion for T56?

[matty b]

Hey Ive been looking around for a conversion kit to turn a t56 into a dog box so that it can be shifted without clutching. My hope was that if this was available I could get a mastershift paddle shifter and have a paddle shifted sequential type transmission. Even a T5 with this would be really cool. Also I wouldnt wanna have to pay out the nose for it since there is a point where that kind of stuff just gets too expensive. More or less I have this undying want for a competition style sequential gearbox and it seems that something like this would be the closest thing to it.

[andrewb70]

Contrary to popular belief dog ring engagement transmissions are not shifted without using the clutch, sort of. In order for the transmission to shift the load on the input shaft must be reduced. Fancy sequentially shifted race trannys do this with engine management. The shifter handles have a strain gauge that tells the ECU that a shift is about to occur. So the ECU cut spark for a few milliseconds to unload the input shaft. For down shifts the ECU can even match the RPM. Another way to unload the input shaft is to lightly graze the clutch just enough to make it slip.

Liberty can convert your T56 to have dog ring engagement in gears 1-4. I had one in my LS6 powered RX7.

Andrew

[vp23271]

Wow, never knew that. Very Cool!

[andrewb70]

Check out this Corvette:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S7li4xawIw

It has a Holinger sequential gear box.

Andrew

[HarleyR]

If you get a sequential box rember.... A revlimiter cant catch a down shift because its mechanical.....I have seen pistions dissapear from a engine because the operator did a 6th to 1st ...I rode in a Off road class 1 car with a sequental 6 speed X Trac ( 50,000 dollar trans) the ingition cut was awseome plus it sounded cool....haha

[andrewb70]

PPG in Australia actually makes a complete straight cut/dog ring gearset for the T56. They had it at PRI a couple of years ago. Here is a nice video that covers some basics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fA94Sxiu4c

Pay careful attention to the incar footage of the yellow Triumph. Notice how he is lifting off the gas when he shifts.

Andrew
Andrew

[matty b]

cool thanks guys.. I can easily kill power by interrupting power to the coils with a simple switch. As far as down shifts over revving the engine, I rode sport bikes for a while until I was hit by a car so I know what can happen but also what to pay attention to to make sure I dont screw up. Thanks again though Im gonna look into this a bit more.

[andrewb70]

cool thanks guys.. I can easily kill power by interrupting power to the coils with a simple switch. As far as down shifts over revving the engine, I rode sport bikes for a while until I was hit by a car so I know what can happen but also what to pay attention to to make sure I dont screw up. Thanks again though Im gonna look into this a bit more.

You do not want to kill the power to the coils. That is way too brutal. EFI systems that have this feature drop spark for a few milliseconds. While all this sound cool really it is a science project unless you have cubic dollars.

Andrew

[matty b]

ok so I looked, PPG doesnt sell a dog conversion for a t5 or a t56 although they sell gear sets, Liberty says that pro shifting is not meant to be used without the clutch. Hollinger is obviously way pricey. I looked at G Force and although they have a 5 speed that can be clutchless it also is over 7 grand. How bout this, is there ANY 5 or 6 speed transmissions that can even be had with a V-Gate shifter that is also available with dogs? I looked at Richmond and they dont list a dog conversion either. I just want a sequential style transmission, something about just about having a car that can be shifted like a bike just does it for me. You guys got anymore ideas?

[andrewb70]

ok so I looked, PPG doesnt sell a dog conversion for a t5 or a t56 although they sell gear sets, Liberty says that pro shifting is not meant to be used without the clutch. Hollinger is obviously way pricey. I looked at G Force and although they have a 5 speed that can be clutchless it also is over 7 grand. How bout this, is there ANY 5 or 6 speed transmissions that can even be had with a V-Gate shifter that is also available with dogs? I looked at Richmond and they dont list a dog conversion either. I just want a sequential style transmission, something about just about having a car that can be shifted like a bike just does it for me. You guys got anymore ideas?

The Liberty conversion is listed under faceplating, not pro-shifting.

Somehow I don't get the sense that you understand me. Even the Holinger box isn't trully "clutchless." You can't just be at WOT and grab the next gear. The dogs are machined in such a way that they interlock under load. So the load must be take off the input shaft for a split second. That can be done either by slipping the clutch slightly, or lifting off the throttle. The C6 with the Holinger box in the Katech video has an ignition interupt for shifting.

The PPG T56 is real and the complete gearset is $7500. It uses straight cut gears in all forward gears.

Andrew

P.S. Liberty does make a true clutchless transmission that is used in Pro-Stock, but it can't be downshifted.

[matty b]

we are definitely on the same page. Its setup just like a sportbike, as you shift you let of the gas for a quick second so it will drop into gear. On Libertys site it said pro shifting and face plating were both the same as that you have to use the clutch to shift. I may be misunderstanding that as opposed to a true clutchless shift were you floor it and do nothing except bang gears. More or less I wanna be able to shift like a sportbike, if you follow me on that then we are on the same page. Also the PPG dealer for the US had the T56 listed as gear sets but it didnt say dog box but it listed dog box as an option for other trannies so maybe they just left that out. But it sounds like Libertys face plating may be the way to go as far as cost goes so Im gonna give em a call

[andrewb70]

I may be misunderstanding that as opposed to a true clutchless shift were you floor it and do nothing except bang gears. More or less I wanna be able to shift like a sportbike, if you follow me on that then we are on the same page. Also the PPG dealer for the US had the T56 listed as gear sets but it didnt say dog box but it listed dog box as an option for other trannies so maybe they just left that out. But it sounds like Libertys face plating may be the way to go as far as cost goes so Im gonna give em a call

Here is a thread on my experience with the Liberty faceplated T56:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...hlight=liberty

Post #33 has a link to a video. Towards the end of the video I make two runs shifting from 1st to 4th. I did not use the clutch, but I did lift on the throttle. Do the sportbikes have an ignition cut when shifting?

Andrew

[matty b]

they dont come with it but you can get it, I had this on my R1 and it was BADASS. http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...k_shifter.aspx
Dynojet makes all kinds of cool stuff for bikes that you could put on your car. You can get a gear indicator thats based on mph and rpm that could be hooked up too.

[matty b]

I watched your video and thats exactly how a sport bike is shifted normally. Ok so I am definitely gonna do a faceplated setup. Now for the second question. Does anyone make a V Gate Shifter for the T56? Personally I would prefer a bump stick over paddles but if I cant find one Ill spring for the Mastershift setup. Thanks a ton Andrew, you definitely helped with my main question. As far as downshifting do you just need to rev match or is there any other things that you need to do when downshifting? Also what kind of milage are you getting out of your trans before having to freshen it up? Hopefully it can make it for a while between overhauls like at least 5-10k miles. If theres one thing I cant stand is having to pull something apart every 500 miles to do major service on it, those kinds of things are definitely not worth the hassle. My old drag car required that type of work and I got sick of it.

[andrewb70]

I watched your video and thats exactly how a sport bike is shifted normally. Ok so I am definitely gonna do a faceplated setup. Now for the second question. Does anyone make a V Gate Shifter for the T56? Personally I would prefer a bump stick over paddles but if I cant find one Ill spring for the Mastershift setup. Thanks a ton Andrew, you definitely helped with my main question. As far as downshifting do you just need to rev match or is there any other things that you need to do when downshifting? Also what kind of milage are you getting out of your trans before having to freshen it up? Hopefully it can make it for a while between overhauls like at least 5-10k miles. If theres one thing I cant stand is having to pull something apart every 500 miles to do major service on it, those kinds of things are definitely not worth the hassle. My old drag car required that type of work and I got sick of it.

I can't really comment on the longevity. I have since sold that trans, but it is going in a car belonging to a member here. Joe, from Six Speed Inc, said that they usually service them about 50-70 passes. Keep in mind this is in a car that runs 8s. I think for street driving you should be able to get 10-15K out of it.

For downshifting all that was required was to rev match the RPM. With a good EFI system that uses drive by wire throttle control it would be very easy to match the exact RPM required based on what gear is being selected and at what speed the vehicle is traveling.

Give Paul at Liberty a call. I have no doubt they will tell you not to do this with their T56. The problem is that the gears are stock. If you are making serious power in a heavy car, you will break it.

Personally I would be looking at one of the G-Force gear boxes or maybe the road racing Jerico. The Liberty LSC 5000 is another option.

The only vertical gate shifters that I am aware of are for drag racing, allowing upshifst only. There is a Japanese company that makes sequential shifters for various Japanese cars, but nothing for domestic transmissions, like the T56. Also check out Zero Shift:

http://www.zeroshift.com/transmissions.html

Andrew

[matty b]

yeah I actually came across a post of yours about that IKEYA shifter and thats exactly what Im talking about. The zero shift setup would cost thousands Im sure. Maybe I can get creative and figure something out. Mastershift has pics of their stuff for a t56 so I guess I could copy some of it. Well I guess I gotta do some creative thinking to figure this out, maybe I can come up with the shifter assembly from an AM vanquish and use that. Cant go wrong with factory engineering in that case.

[matty b]

ok maybe I wont be using the vanquish setup. I read an article in muscle mustangs about tiger racing who uses it. That setup is isanely complicated. Uses a special throwout bearing, bellhousing, hydraulic pump, 6 solenoids and the shift mechanism not to mention it needs computer control integrated with the PCM which is Ford based. So that aint happening. I think my best bet is from Mastershift, I emailed them and am hoping that it isnt insanely expensive.

[andrewb70]

Your best bet is to keep your right foot planted on the gas, while you tap the clutch. Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Your best bet is to keep your right foot planted on the gas, while you tap the clutch. Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be.

Andrew

This is a video of my RX7 going down the track, shifting as I described above.

http://www.v8rx7forum.com/andrew/RX7_launch.wmv

Andrew