Project Outsourcing Tips and Lessons Learned

[KWIKND]

Also don't get caught up in the internet hype or bad mouthing choose based on real facts.

May I also add....Don't be impressed by magizine articles/features of shops, ink of any kind, Goodguys Trendsetter of the Year Awards, Fine Nine Awards, Pro Picks ect, ect, ect.
Do I sound bitter?
All good advice above, but I could have used it nearly 4 years ago (January will be our 4th anniversary) and still not done. Don't skimp on the leg work up front, red flags should make you run. As emotional as a hot rod can make anyone it is still a business decision. Wishful thinking does not a quality paint job make.
Dan

[Vegas69]

I agree. I picked my engine builder based on multiple features. They still owe me money and my engine was 3 months late.

[Hot Rod Refinishers]

This is an exellent thread. I think all are good points. Communication, & a lot of it is critical before a large job is even started.

Unfortuantly, its better for me when a customer walks in thats already been to the cheapy shop that doubled their estimate after work started just so their car could sit in a corner for a year. Its sad, but true.

Yes, an estimate should itemized, panel by panel, stripping , straitning, seam sealing, primer, parts, R&I time, etc, not just a lump sum thats leads to questioning later as to what exactly should have been done.

Warranty.....if we patch an existing panel, I flat out will not warranty it for rust, they usually rust from the inner seam, or back side, we can cut out area that has hole, weld in patch panel, and the area next to it could bubble or rust through in a season.
We keep a chevelle door at shop to show people, outside it is stripped to metal, looks like a good panel, there is a square cut out of the door so people can see inside door, it is completely scaley rust, nasty rust. So try to think ahead, for the common cars, parts are very affordable, a new panel can be under coated, rust fighter can be sprayed inside & run down into seams, & last for many years.
This is why I may write a new door or fender, if it looks pretty good, doesnt mean it is. If its needs a small patch, the paint striped on top, & a few dings fixed, you just spent more then a new panel, that can be warrantied agian rust, where as your patched one may rust thru in another area. Shops that write excessive work on a panel that totals 700 dollars on a mustang fender are not thinkers when a good, new fender is 200 plus R&I time. If you are a mopar person, or someone dealing with cars that have no new parts to be had, then expect to be spendy restoring existing panels so they are correctly done INSIDE & out Materials & labor on a single panel could only be a few hundred, or could be well over a thousand.

On paint, it should be as long as you own your car if its a top of the line paint job (no this doesnt cover rust bubbles, or "my paints peeling here on my rumber bumper where I rammed something"). Cheaper clears & bases wont last, good clears & products will.

Paint, a nice, nice paint job is not cheap. Over the years Ive learned my lesson. Any paint job will get looked at by many people, who will often ask "who painted your car?" The person asking doesnt know if you got the cheapy price, or paided the show car price, they just see what they see, for that reason, I dont really even want to do a car unless its to be a good quality job.

The common deal I used to get myself into was, Id qoute a job, customer would start being blown away by the price, & insist they didnt want a show job, just a nice 10 footer so their car was all one color, & looked decent, so Id reprice it much lower, do body work that was agreed on, shoot it, denib a bit, etc. Then when they come to get it, they are the world biggest critic, "well what about this, what about that, when I stand on my head here I can see something" etc, & to make him happy, Id end up putting near as much into it as Id priced it originally because I didnt want him to leave unhappy, & tell people he was not happy.

Yes, be honest with yourself, & the shop about what kind of finished product you are after, expect an estimate that reflects that.

I still , on larger jobs end up short changing myself on parts of the job, but thats my fault, so Ill eat it. If my estimate says X amount to do something, thats what it will cost, sometimes it takes way longer to do that, the only way it will go up from estimate is if there is a part involved.

Example, Change over door 4.0 hours.......if it takes me 3, or 7 hours, you should pay 4 like was on estimate, if the plastic wheel on your window regulator is broken, or the door latch is wasted, yes, I will call you & ask that we replace this part. But I would never call you & say, oh, this is a lot harder then I thought, Ill need 8 hours to change over this door........thats bad, bad business.

Money up front. I saw somewone posted that for a few hundred , the shop should be able to start on your car. A Large shop, maybe. My small shop, no. Not on a large job anyways. While this thread is about shops that are bad experiances, please remember, there are some good shops, that have had bad customers.

If a car comes in for a large job, like the ones we get, that need 2 quarters, 2 doors, 2 fenders, deck, wheelhouses etc...........Im sorry, but the first thing we do when your car rolls in is order all the parts we know we need for the major work. If a car come in & the second day Im on the phone ordering $4000 in parts & the first week we strip down car, cut off panels & start on wheel houses floors & 1/4's, by week two Ive put out 6000 plus in parts & labor. I do not need to find out at that point that customer has no money, is going through a divorce, or needs to wait on their next paycheck in two weeks.

I can not & will not Float any more then a couple grand at a time , I can not finance 3 or 4 peoples cars at once , assuming that everytime I call them weekly as suggested that they will run rite over & pay their balance. Trust me, Im sure you are an exellent group here, that understands, but theres plenty of folks that want their car done, rite, & now, but cant seem to pay for anything once its rolling, this is bad, & snowballs into worse.

We do Half up front, Half when work is complete that was on original estimate, any little nickel dime stuff that owner adds at end is billed when cars is done. Realisticaly, If you have an $18,000 job, & it goes to a shop thats going to balls out work on it, detrim, strip, order parts, payroll for first week or two, materials, the first half is spent, the second half that is is owed when done, is our real money that gets us into profit on your job.

But yes, some shops you may give half up front, they blow the money, dont order a part, & then wait month to rob peter to pay paul to then order your parts, I totally understand the concern................Know where your car is going, ask for references.


Materials......vary a LOT
Omni base 50 a quart, omni clear 120 a gallon with hardner.

Good bases are 50-150 a quart.....Sikken, Spies Hecker, PPG clears, 250 for gallon of clear, 150-200 for hardner, 40-60 for reducer.

Chromeillusion, 400 a pint.

Paint JOB
1-Base & 2 coats of cheap clear, done,,, or
2-good base, good clear, wetsand & block , & reclear, & buff
One way can be 4-6 times more in material, & 3 time more in labor, which are you looking for? Which are you being charged for?

The most important tool Ive found is the website, I post pics every few days on cars in process, owners can check site from time to time to see whats going on with there car. We have a small shop, if your cars there, its getting worked on, & pics are getting posted.

We welcome visits, we often call customer & ask them to come in real quick to see something, or suggest something.

But yes, visits should be reasonable short, people like their cars, & to talk about cars, its in our nature, but I cant do this with 3 or 4 people everyday for a half hour a shot ;-)

This is why I dont post much here, I babble on forever.

Bottom line is, ask for references for real, compare. Dont go one some one persons rants on the net. Usually the cheap ******* that wants everything cheap, will be the one ranting on 10 forums about how he got took, because his ebay body kit doesnt have perfect gaps.

Even ask the other shops around the one your considering what they see come in & out of there.

I have a high respect for the cars you guys build, & the money you spend on them. Like I said in beginning, its sad when you have been jerked around before I meet you. I hear horror stories. Ive done jobs cheaper because I felt so bad what someone went thru before at 2 other shops before they yanked their cars out.

Thanks for the read. Good thread. Its late, forgive my spelling & Grammar......

Jeff

[DarkBuddha]

Money up front. I saw somewone posted that for a few hundred , the shop should be able to start on your car. A Large shop, maybe. My small shop, no. Not on a large job anyways. While this thread is about shops that are bad experiances, please remember, there are some good shops, that have had bad customers.

If a car comes in for a large job, like the ones we get, that need 2 quarters, 2 doors, 2 fenders, deck, wheelhouses etc...........Im sorry, but the first thing we do when your car rolls in is order all the parts we know we need for the major work. If a car come in & the second day Im on the phone ordering $4000 in parts & the first week we strip down car, cut off panels & start on wheel houses floors & 1/4's, by week two Ive put out 6000 plus in parts & labor. I do not need to find out at that point that customer has no money, is going through a divorce, or needs to wait on their next paycheck in two weeks.

I can not & will not Float any more then a couple grand at a time , I can not finance 3 or 4 peoples cars at once , assuming that everytime I call them weekly as suggested that they will run rite over & pay their balance. Trust me, Im sure you are an exellent group here, that understands, but theres plenty of folks that want their car done, rite, & now, but cant seem to pay for anything once its rolling, this is bad, & snowballs into worse.

We do Half up front, Half when work is complete that was on original estimate, any little nickel dime stuff that owner adds at end is billed when cars is done. Realisticaly, If you have an $18,000 job, & it goes to a shop thats going to balls out work on it, detrim, strip, order parts, payroll for first week or two, materials, the first half is spent, the second half that is is owed when done, is our real money that gets us into profit on your job.

I don't know... I see your perspective, but based on experience, I'd still be very very very concerned about giving a shop much upfront, especially a small shop (no offense intended). I'm sure you understand the concern of giving a ton of cash upfront and then hope the shop does the work. It's a tricky proposition and as a customer it's a bit dangerous since you lose some (or some times a lot) of control and power to ensure that the job is done and done correctly.

I do certainly agree with you that the customer should be a good customer and pay their tab on a regular basis and that you should not proceed to continue working on a project once the tab gets to an amount that is unacceptable (or makes you uncomfortable). As much as shops should be honest and reputable and do good work, customers should be honest and reputable and pay on time.

My job is to protect my interests, just as you need to protect yours.

[David Sloan]

As a shop owner i want to be fair to everybody (we have a open door policy) , an be fair to our self's.

We have a How we do business form that reads as such.
Our goal is to make a difference in the customization industry. We want to provide you with top quality work at a fair market price with courteous service and a precise itemization of the work performed so that you know exactly what has been done for you.
Every day that we work on your project, we will log the amount of time invested, materials used an the tasks completed. We will try to be specific so you will understand the process of each step and the attention to detail that we strive to maintain.
All projects that we accept will require an up front deposit of 2 weeks labor and the cost of parts or materials.
Once the deposit has been used up against the time an materials on your project, we will continue to preform the work that you authorized us to do. At that point we will require that you pay any and all amounts due on your project by the end of the each week, If you fail to pay for the time and materials used on your project by the end of each week , we reserve the right to stop working on your project and move on to other projects. If, for whatever reason, you cannot come up with the money to continue your project we reserve the right to require you to come and pick up your project. We do not provide storage for projects that are not active.
We are not responsible for loss or damage to your project in cace of fire, theft or any other cause beyond our control or for any delays caused by unavailability of parts shipments by the supplier or transporter.
You must also agree to grant us permission to operate your vehicle on streets, highways or elsewhere for the purpose of testing and or inspection. An express garage keeper's lean is hereby acknowledged on your project to secure the cost of time an materials.

Your signature below confrims that you agree to these terms and conditions.
We also have a sheet called
Project work order
It is to be filled out as, Authorized work to be preformed:________________________________
Your signature below confirms that you authorize us to preform the work described above. You also agree to pay a deposit of$______ which will be applied against the work preformed on your Vehicle. Our shop rate is $45.00 per hour, plus the cost of materials, parts an paint.

This was writen by my ex partner an updated by myself an my wife. and then we had our Attorneys look it over.

I do not like the half of the moneys up front an half when finished deal it does not work for me. Some of these builds price range for $10,000 to a $100,000 plus. I prefer to have you come in on a weekly to ever other week so you can inspect the work we have done an make suggestions on things that might come up.
This way you are not giving a shop a ton of money up front to do work, This way i could only get the amount of the deposit behind an you can not get more than a week or 2 at most behind on your project.
Let say you pick a shop an think you have the right one to do your work, only to find out weeks later that you dont like what you see but you have paid $15,000 up front for this an they have only done 2 weeks of work, you want to pull the car but they have your moneys. Now it could get ugly .
I feel that the way we have it is the best way for us to do business with you an be fair to both party's

This is just my opinion an our business policy's others may not agree an that is there right the way i see it.

[MonzaRacer]

As a tech and a hot rodder and a engine builder trying to branch out, I will state that I do agree with the "Pros" here to a degree.
My opionion is as a person having work done AND doing said work its VERY hard for me to lay out $5000 plus on parts for a bunch of parts and then get left to hang with them for several months while the "owner" tried to raise the funds to pay for it (thisis for a top line engine with premium name brand parts).
I havent started a full time buisness yet, but I do ask a simple fee for engine assembly then gethe engine done, i give an estimate on materieals and parts baring unforseen problems and take a deposit AND give a reciept and write reciepts for every part as they come in.
Most of the time I build the engine at the customers home(I have all my assembly tools in case to take with) and will even let them help some so they understand what is in thier.
One fella wanted to knowwhat he paid for so I let him watch as I put it together.
So after triple checking everything, having to reeybrow the pistons as he got a set of heads with 2.08 valves over 2.02 valves as was ordered, (I live the cutter valves I got, so simple use them and a drill and the stop and you cna redo the eyebrows in minutes instead of hours.
He was astounded that I went through almost 3 cases of brake cleaner.
all totaled it took me just under 6 hours to assemble the engine and he was exhausted and had mostly sat in a old recliner and chatted with me as I explained my process.
I ask himwhat color he wanted and even rolled it out side his garage and painted it, yes several coats of an epoxy sealer primer, color and clear.
That guy helped me sell 12 engines in the last few years. He was astounded at all the work went into the engines.
Oh and 3 days alter I helped him tune and dial it in and isntall it.
After getting best engine at first show AND winning his race too!.
As for me I agree on base deposits AND get running totals and pay as you go, that way if you have finacial issues its partially paid for and the shop can simply slow or stop till you have funding to continue on.
Selling partially finished projects and the shop(ie me)will bear the fiancial brunt till it sells and even if you can sell it you may not even be able to as the title will be inthe orgianl owners hands.
A contract, with partial payments at precribed in said contract, either on a set time schedule, or at certain milestones of the work.
If I were getting a car done than I would break it up, like engine/driveline, body/paint, steeringing suspension,interior.
I built a race car for a guy many years ago, welding the chassis (2x3 frame rails, 12 point, 4 link into a Beretta. And since he lived in Indiana in summer and raced then went to Fla. for winter, I got to use his garage.We set up a computer with web cam and video feed so he could see progress (very first web cam I had ever seen) and he would wire mone to a joint account and that was my funds.
I mailed him reciepts for everything every week.
I kept timeclock after work on the computer and he had remote access to the lap top.
The car has gotten several best engineered awards and the fella was super pleased and we neither one had issues with cash flow.
dont get me wrong if a shopwants to let the bill float till its done so be it but pay as you go can also give you a sense of accomplishment and if you have to quit, sell, move or what ever it uncomplicates things.
I guess its do what works best for you and your customers.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[DarkBuddha]

I guess I'm just too much of a consumer advocate to let people suffer the potentials of some shop (or some guy in his garage) take $5k and not have anything to show for it or any easy way to recoup that money if things go bad. And things do go bad. People have financial problems, health problems, legal problems, personal problems, drinking problems, time management problems, employee problems, tool and facility problems, and all kinds of other stuff that can go wrong. I've suffered with shops that have had every single one of these problems and it cost me time, money, heartache, sanity, and nearly 6 rounds of 9mm ammo (jusk kidding).

Lets just say if a shop (or guy in his garage) asks someone to fork over a bunch of cash, you better be damn ready to do the work, show the parts, and get it done right and on time. Otherwise it's just more proof of my point.

[dharrod]

Tip/must: Take advantage of those who have come before you via forums.....
One thing that has changed in the past 5 years, and I advice people on, is using these forums to connect with people that have found quality shops. It doesn't take long in a community/forum like this(lateral-g, chevelles.com etc.) to connect to quality shops/advice within driving range. From an industry perspective you have top notch customers/builders/shops in CA that can tell you about customers/builders/shops in NC. I'm still trying to build them in my garage myself but have already found shop owners that have given me free advice and have been backed by a trail of happy customers. In this very thread you have a host of builders and it wouldn't take long to find their customers (and vice-versa).

[GT500KR_Vert]

Well this thread turned out to be very useful for me; I started it out just to gain some knowledge, but now I'm in the market for a new builder and your comments really help.

[rellim51]

It's real simple. For standard bodywork and paint that DOES NOT change the original proportions and paint that DOES NOT include 72 colors and air brushing, there is no reason a competent bodyshop can not give a hard number. Certainly once a car is in bare metal the shop should be able to give a hard labor and material number. And there is no reason a shop should not be able to give a range within 15% to 20% before striping the car. (In other words, there is no reason for you to give thousands of dollars, then only to hear they missed by 100%, but now you are pot committed). We shop owners are supposed to be professionals. We do this for a living. We are supposed to be able to see through the paint enough to get a good idea what we might be dealing with. Of coarse there are surprises, but anyone that misses by more then 10% to 20% because they cannot properly estimate the job, or worse was possibly just baiting you, deserves to loose their ass for being so damn incompetent.

Now, the truth of it is simple. almost any professional (and I mean professional) shop CAN estimate the job properly. But all to often shops low ball the project to get the job. Get you in the door, then give you the bad news. I scare the hell out of a lot of prospective customers because we give the real figure up front, but it is a hard number except for parts cost and modifications to the original agreement. Often times our scared prospective customers head down the road to a cheaper shop. Often times we end up fixing the car when the other shop and the car owner have the inevitable falling out.

So, how to protect yourself from getting screwed?

(1) Get a few estimates, and if any of them seem real low, that guy does not know what he is doing. Know what it should cost to do this work!

(2) Get a hard number or a range within a reasonable percentage. Maybe the shop cannot do this on parts because prices can fluctuate, but the shop should be able to estimate labor and paint materials

(3) Do not accept Time and materials estimates for Paint and bodywork

(4) DO NOT give up all the money up front. Have a set payment schedule and milestones for those payments. X amount is due when Y is finished!

(5) DO NOT go to a collision shop! It's not wrecked! it's rusted! Go to a restoration shop / Hot Rod shop that does this.

Now, with all that said. If you want the next riddler winner. Or if you want a chopped / channeled / sectioned / Frenched World of Wheels bla bla bla, then you can expect a Time and Materials estimate. And even then, the shop should know enough what they are doing to hit it in the right zip code. And if you do a Time and Materials arrangement. DO NOT do this long distance! Do inspections before handing over payments. If you do biweekly, even monthly payments and inspections on a Time and materials job, it's your fault if it gets away from you.

Do you think Johnson, Troy, Alloway or any other high end builder gives "hard" estimates on their work? I doubt it.

[dharrod]

Do you think Johnson, Troy, Alloway or any other high end builder gives "hard" estimates on their work? I doubt it.

I doubt it too - .. I’m not sure that ProdigyCustoms was trying to set expectations for the most elite shops (whole different set of expectations).

[Hot Rod Refinishers]

I think everyone here has valid points on both sides of the fence, thats what makes longer term jobs all that more scary sometimes.

Yes, research who & where you are going. Ask a shop for references maybe.

I should back step a bit on my post. We do mid range jobs 10-25 thousand. If I where doing a ground up build, interior, drivetrain, body, paint, etc, then yes, a hard estimate would be next to impossible. It would be some parts hard numbers, some parts would be time clocked per hour.

Johnson, Troy, Alloway type jobs are done for people who normally are the crowd with a lot of money, that arent so concerned with cost.

I do jobs for some who fall in that range, but more so do jobs for working class heros that have X amount of dollars to spend, & need to see a hard number estimate, I do just that for them. I will make notes on bottom of the few areas that may have a varible involved. (example: when we remove fenders from your cutlass, there may be rot at lower pilliars, it is common)

But with just being in the body & paint aspect only, most jobs are fairly cut & dry, 2 fenders, doors, 1/4's, wheelhouses, maybe hood,core support,valances, & deck lid. Install times on each panel, straitening time on existing panels, epoxy prime, urethane prime, seam seal, cut in parts, exterior refinish, etc. all broken down its all accounted for.

Some cars that dont have many panels avalible, or need blasted first to give a proper estimate, these are a bit more difficult to estimate up frt prior to blasting, & I tell them that flat out.

This is a good thread, keep it going.

Thanks, Jeff