Project Outsourcing Tips and Lessons Learned

[GT500KR_Vert]

I thought it might be helpful with all the remarks lately to start a thread on how not to get yourself ripped off when outsourcing work on your project (i.e. body, paint, motor, etc). It seems to me even if you get things in writing the lists are so vague that sometimes the company doing the work will change what was exactly agreed upon over the time the project starts to end.

My last build I was have a guy restoring my 68 Mustang coupe; we agreed to the price for the body work and I paid him in monthly installments; half way through he said it's not going to be enough and he needs twice as much (for which I could have bought a fully restored car for less). When I went to pick it up I found the work quality to be terrible and brought the car home after he agreed that the works wasn't right. Next thing I know he brought me to court for the rest of the money. The judge made made me pay almost as much in total for the original price of the project because he said my opinion didn't matter and I was not a car expert. The car was sold and I started over.

As a hobby/interest it seems really hard to find quality people to do your work and complete what they agree to. I went through 6 different people and 3 years just to get my engine rebuilt. I also think customer expectations and communications between the customer and builders are often problems. Especially when the builder gets insulted because you don't like the away they did something or they do something you did not agree too and they tell you they don't want to be micro-managed. Seems to me I am the customer and I'd like the car completed the way I want and it was agreed to. I'm in a customer service oriented business and it's always about keeping the customer happy.

Does anyone else have suggestions how to work better with builder / commpanies. Customers and Builders inputs would be great, I think it would be helpful for everyone. Let's try to keep this possitive and not mention names.

[Mike Holleman]

A few comments from the builder's perspective, most of the problems between two people in a business relationship come about because of a lack of communication. I tell my customer from the beginning to tell me anytime they are uncomfortable or in anyway less than happy before it gets to be a problem. It is most important that we stay on the same page. And have the same goals. I do not quote a job. I can give an idea of what the total cost should be but there are way too many factors that effect the total cost. I do not take any money upfront. We settle up at the end of every month. I ask the customer to come by on a regular basis so he can see what is happening and can guide me if we are doing anything that does not go along with his expectations. I have yet to have a customer that is not happy with the finished product. Many times they spent well more than they had planned, but they are the ones in control of that. The Chevelle I am finishing right now is about $20,000. over the customers budget but the customer knows why and recognizes that he made the decisions that got us there. The first time I do a build for someone and it ends badly, will be my last build. Life is way too short to not enjoy what you do.

[GT500KR_Vert]

Great, I agree with the communication problem. What about if your builder doesn't end up communicating well (ie: too busy, personality, stressed)?

A few comments from the builder's perspective, most of the problems between two people in a business relationship come about because of a lack of communication. I tell my customer from the beginning to tell me anytime they are uncomfortable or in anyway less than happy before it gets to be a problem. It is most important that we stay on the same page. And have the same goals. I do not quote a job. I can give an idea of what the total cost should be but there are way too many factors that effect the total cost. I do not take any money upfront. We settle up at the end of every month. I ask the customer to come by on a regular basis so he can see what is happening and can guide me if we are doing anything that does not go along with his expectations. I have yet to have a customer that is not happy with the finished product. Many times they spent well more than they had planned, but they are the ones in control of that. The Chevelle I am finishing right now is about $20,000. over the customers budget but the customer knows why and recognizes that he made the decisions that got us there. The first time I do a build for someone and it ends badly, will be my last build. Life is way too short to not enjoy what you do.

[Smock67]

Well said. From working at a shop and having a previous car done, the most important part for both the customer and the shop is regular visits. This not only keeps the customer up to date on what is being done with their vehicle but also allows the shop to make suggestions and get feedback on the work they have completed. Without this it's almost going blind and the way people say things can mean one thing or the other so having face to face and showing them is really the only way to get exactly what you want.

Worst comes to worst and you don't trust shops, learn to do the work yourself. From personal experience i didn't know how to do any body work a couple months ago, but from working on my own project and asking questions i am now able to do pretty much any body work that comes my way. Granted i work in a car shop so it's a little easier to get help but i've also learned so much from this forum among others that i frequent. Sorry for my little tangent but it goes back to the old saying, "If you want something done right...Do it yourself."

[GT500KR_Vert]

I agree, but there is also something to be said that some equipment shops have and use to do the job right costs as much or more than your whole project. There is also the problem with time. Not every car owner who wishes to restore their car has the time need to completely restore there car so they outsource some of the bigger project like body work.

Well said. From working at a shop and having a previous car done, the most important part for both the customer and the shop is regular visits. This not only keeps the customer up to date on what is being done with their vehicle but also allows the shop to make suggestions and get feedback on the work they have completed. Without this it's almost going blind and the way people say things can mean one thing or the other so having face to face and showing them is really the only way to get exactly what you want.

Worst comes to worst and you don't trust shops, learn to do the work yourself. From personal experience i didn't know how to do any body work a couple months ago, but from working on my own project and asking questions i am now able to do pretty much any body work that comes my way. Granted i work in a car shop so it's a little easier to get help but i've also learned so much from this forum among others that i frequent. Sorry for my little tangent but it goes back to the old saying, "If you want something done right...Do it yourself."

[ProdigyCustoms]

It's real simple. For standard bodywork and paint that DOES NOT change the original proportions and paint that DOES NOT include 72 colors and air brushing, there is no reason a competent bodyshop can not give a hard number. Certainly once a car is in bare metal the shop should be able to give a hard labor and material number. And there is no reason a shop should not be able to give a range within 15% to 20% before striping the car. (In other words, there is no reason for you to give thousands of dollars, then only to hear they missed by 100%, but now you are pot committed). We shop owners are supposed to be professionals. We do this for a living. We are supposed to be able to see through the paint enough to get a good idea what we might be dealing with. Of coarse there are surprises, but anyone that misses by more then 10% to 20% because they cannot properly estimate the job, or worse was possibly just baiting you, deserves to loose their ass for being so damn incompetent.

Now, the truth of it is simple. almost any professional (and I mean professional) shop CAN estimate the job properly. But all to often shops low ball the project to get the job. Get you in the door, then give you the bad news. I scare the hell out of a lot of prospective customers because we give the real figure up front, but it is a hard number except for parts cost and modifications to the original agreement. Often times our scared prospective customers head down the road to a cheaper shop. Often times we end up fixing the car when the other shop and the car owner have the inevitable falling out.

So, how to protect yourself from getting screwed?

(1) Get a few estimates, and if any of them seem real low, that guy does not know what he is doing. Know what it should cost to do this work!

(2) Get a hard number or a range within a reasonable percentage. Maybe the shop cannot do this on parts because prices can fluctuate, but the shop should be able to estimate labor and paint materials

(3) Do not accept Time and materials estimates for Paint and bodywork

(4) DO NOT give up all the money up front. Have a set payment schedule and milestones for those payments. X amount is due when Y is finished!

(5) DO NOT go to a collision shop! It's not wrecked! it's rusted! Go to a restoration shop / Hot Rod shop that does this.

Now, with all that said. If you want the next riddler winner. Or if you want a chopped / channeled / sectioned / Frenched World of Wheels bla bla bla, then you can expect a Time and Materials estimate. And even then, the shop should know enough what they are doing to hit it in the right zip code. And if you do a Time and Materials arrangement. DO NOT do this long distance! Do inspections before handing over payments. If you do biweekly, even monthly payments and inspections on a Time and materials job, it's your fault if it gets away from you.

[GT500KR_Vert]

Thanks Frank.

[Taylor1969]

Right on Frank. I think that both the customer and the builder have responsibilities. The shop has the responsibility of being honest and the owner needs to invest time in the process. When you say that brakes should be done... I took that as rotors, calipers, etc. and not all lines, power setup etc. Be as detailed oriented as possible, setup milestones and be a part of the process.

The way I plan on handling my paint is by paying when it gets to initial prep stages, once the body work is done, after color spray, after color sanding and clearcoat, and then a final payment after the final wetsand. I will take the time out of my schedule to make trips to the shop often and to be a part of the process so that both my expectations and the painters expectations are met. One thing that I definitely agree with Frank on is being pretty close in estimates. If your professional opinion is that it will take 6K to finish the job then you better never ask me for 8K when it is all said and done. I expect a few hangups and extra money somewhere, but a professional should be in the ballpark. In my line of work if I say that it will take 9 days to do a job and it takes me 10... then I will eat a day and learn to estimate better next time.

[Rolling_Thunder]

My largest problem being a shop manager is the customer mentaility... One of our particular customers at the moment seems to believe assembling his car should take 7 days just like Overhaulin... I keep telling him these things take time.

My major problem is when people know nothing about cars... they seem to not comprehend the fact that things go wrong, parts take 10 months to arrive (thanks Year One), and **** happens....

[GT500KR_Vert]

Could be worse; they could be watching them build them on American Hot Rod! I'd be scared to drive one of those cars.

[BRIAN]

The biggest problem is what you and the shop consider quality repairs. Most shops only see what goes on in their own shop and claim they are the best. You have the choice to go to several shops and choose what you feel is a quality repair is.

You will be surprised big time with what some guys think is the "Correct" way to repair a car or do business in general. Of course your bank account and time frame does in some ways dictate the quality of the repairs.

Go over line for line exactly what you expect. Putting it in writting isn't a problem for some if they are going to follow through. If they are late getting you an estimate or even starting on your car that is a strong hint. You would be surprised how many people see poor repairs or stupid delays and stick with it.

Also don't get caught up in the internet hype or bad mouthing choose based on real facts.

[awesometool]

I have owned my own bussiness for 15 years. At first I made may mistakes when bidding work and ate the difference. My field is remodeling they are not exactly the same but some what when is comes to changes.

#1 detailed contract you can go back to when the customer has questions on what is and is not included.
#2 if any additional work is needed or requested give them a approximate cost and the change in finihs time. NEVER TELL THEM IT IS MORE BECAUSE YOU SPENT MORE TIME OR MATERIAL THAN YOU THOUGHT
#3 if you made a mistake when estimating time or your materials eat it we all make mistakes and this only one job.
#4 a happy customer is you next two or three customer and the best paying
#5 go over your work before showing customer then take customer for walk thru if their complaint is reasonable tell them " I very sorry I missed that and will change or repair it asap.
#6 I always remember most people do not understand all the aspects of what I do and need me to explain in terms they can understand why something will be an extra fee then let them decide the next step.

Now if I could only apply this to my personal life it would be easyer.

[GT500KR_Vert]

ok, what about when you have a job completed and everything looks go to only have it go bad later? Again not all of us are experts. Warranties are not typical in the area of custom restorations.

[GT500KR_Vert]

btw: these threads are the same if anyone is interested in more postings:
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=721619

[awesometool]

good point I can learn a lot from this tread. In my Field I give one year on labor. If someone comes back two years later and I know the problem was cause something we did I will still repair it at my discretion.

[GT500KR_Vert]

BTW: I'm not really asking these questions for me. I think this can be a Sticky Thread that would be helpful for newbies that don't know. I learned a lot with my first restoration and waste of money. I think alot fo people would be smart to just buy a restored car in good condition and have it checked by a mechanics before they buy it and just drive it. If I knew how much money I've spent so far before hand I would have just done that or just bought a new GT500. Come to think of it there would have been a hell of a lot less frustrations and stress too.

[Vegas69]

Do your research. Get references if you are not comfortable. I got into a situation with a low ball builder. I was green at the time when it came to restoration hours. I didn't shop around because I felt comfortable with the guy. Even when I pulled the project out from under him I still didn't dislike him but after getting an estimate nearly twice what was promised the trust factor went out the window. If he would have been straight with me up front he would be substantially more financially sound this year.
After my first go around I got lucky and got my money and property back with minimal headaches. I then did my research and found the only true professional I have dealt with(Prodigy Customs/Frank you are going to have to start paying me a salary ) still in the parts or restoration business. I don't have to worry about if my car is getting worked on or I'm getting worked over. It's supposed to be a pleasant experience. If it's not run like hell. Like Frank said one guy may be less money but it may end up costing you a hell of alot more in the long run! Their is a reason one guy can demand more than the next. Usually it's his professionalism and list of happy customers. I better get my ass back to work.

[BonzoHansen]

Related reading: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9327

[J2speedandcustom]

I agree with Frank's post 100%. A "professional" will know what it takes to complete any job, because they have experience.

Like Frank we fix alot of projects that have been sitting in other shops for months or years. It really saddens me when customers say "well I have to take so and so to court, or I didn't get what I wanted and paid all this money. What can I do?"

Our shop goal is to make the customers dreams a reality and exceed their expectations. We work extemely hard to educate our customers before the project is in house. Build sheets, part estimates, labor, etc are all spelled out to the customer before we both agree to take on the project. And like Frank said alot are sticker shocked by the $$$ part. My quote doesn't change unless the customer submits a change order and we both agree and sign off.

On fixing issues etc. If my name is on it I'm going to do everything possible to make it right. 99% of the time it's something small that drives the owner crazy and fixing it is a 10 minute deal.

My advice to people looking for a quality shop is to do your homework. "Mind the money" which means to make smart decisions on what you spend money on when completing a project. It's so easy to put $100k in a car and very few people want to do that!

If anyone has questions or needs advice shoot me an email or give me a call.

[DarkBuddha]

A couple tips I'll recommend from my own personal experience with the body rebuild on my Mach:

1. Negotiate a package deal for all of the work. Get a detailed, itemized, written contract and have the shop owner sign it. This should include stuff like "outer quarter panel replacement, $350", etc. That way you know what it costs and how much to pay as work is completed.

2. Don't pay up front except for a token deposit (a couple hundred bucks or so). If the shop is reputable and capable, then there is no reason they can't float the cost of materials until some work is done. Besides, they keep your car until you pay, so why should they get payed for work that isn't done yet?

3. Inspect the work often... weekly or more often. A good and reputable shop will understand and tollerate checking in regularly. Don't stick around and chat or interfere with their operation. Do bring a 6 pack of soda or other "peace offering" to keep the relationship amiable.

4. Only pay for work that has been completed. Don't pay for work yet to be done or anything not done to an adequate standard. Don't pay for half-ass work. If they say they need funds up front for certain projects, wonder why and be concerned.

6. Be willing to say "stop" and know when to say "when". If the shop starts finding or indicating there is more work to do or issues to repair and says it'll cost more and take longer, decide if it is reasonable. If it isn't, then be willing to tell them to stop work and cut your losses. Some shops will try to nickel-and-dime you with a little extra work here and there which ends up adding up to lots of time and money. Sometimes the extra work is legitimate but isn't worth the exta time and money. Know your limits.

5. Be flexible. Don't get taken advantage of, but don't be pushy. Firm but reasonable is the way.

6. Paying cash can sometimes save you money. If you don't need a receipt, they don't have to account for the income. The IRS is their problem. This saved me a good $1000.

Hope this helps.