Chevy Rumble C5 article????

[trayb]

Man, All this bickering about C-5 setups. Does it really matter if you go with a WD's or 21st's subframe? I have opted to get mines custom built by Neil Lea of Rods and Restos in Centre, Alabama. I have know Neil for a while and approve of his work. There is not a car that comes out of his shop that is not right. Even though he builds $300K rods, he is willing to do my C-5 subframe. Just in case you want to see some refs check out this link:



http://chevyhiperformance.com/featur...ty/index1.html

If you got any questions, call him at 256-927-2199 and tell him that Tray sent you about the C-5 Subframe.

[justanova]

its good to see both Wayne and Ed handling themselves professionally.

To me they both look like very good products and i just hope that someday i get the chance to maybe own either of their products.

[trayb]

Just in case you wanted to know. I actually drove that red 55 and it handles better than my firends new Porsche 911 turbo. Another link or the car:

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/PHR_0212Cream/

[Wayne Due]

I wanted to make it clear on my last post, I dont think Ed copyed the frame, were all copying frames right.
But also wanted to thank JR and the others for being there and sticking there neck out for me. I think this frame ( Ed's) has sparked some interest in me to better the C-5 frame I have, I'm also working on a C-5 rear clip for any car, Thats what well be putting in JR's car. And since the gauntlet had been throw maybe a show down is in order.
BTW: if looks dont matter why race or build Chev II's or Camaros? Chevettes and
pintos are lots cheaper, or maybe looks matter just a little LOL

Later
W

[Salt Racer]

Yes, looks does matter. Otherwise I'd have picked up '63 or '64 Riv for much less money than a '65 w/ cooler headlights.

But when it comes to something that concerns performance and safety (suspension, brakes, etc), aesthetics shouldn't be the priority for judging products. I know you know what I meant

[cpederslie]

First, Thanks Wayne for jumping in here and throwing your two pennies in, just made JR and I look like bigger arses, but wtf I have been called worse.

Second, I am a little shocked at how over excited everyone seemed to get. Wholly crap, I gave MY opinion and that's all because I was asked what I thought. That doesn't mean I think its an inferior product or that Ed shouldn't be doing what he is. IT WAS AN OPINION, last time I checked this was a FREE country and I have the right to express my opinions, especially when asked. Yes, I formulated my opinon on an article and the pictures in that article and no I haven't seen Eds product in person. Some one that has one installed come on over and let me crawl around it and see it in person.

Maybe aesthetics or the way something looks doesnt' matter to some people, but it certainly does to me regardless of what the car is being used for. Just because I am building a pro-touring car doesn't mean it shouldn't be show worthy either. I plan to drive mine cross country and participate in shows as well. That said, I have to be happy with the way it looks, its constructed, etc. After all its my car its going into and not yours. But hey, I respect YOUR opinion.

One of the main reasons I chose a WD clip is that he is close to home and I can drop in, ask quesitons, make sure its getting done the way I want it done. That and Waynes a great guy.

I am sure that the same is true for Payton and his selection of Ed's clip and I don't have anything against that. He's obviously looked it over, asked all the questions and likes what Ed has to offer. Good, that's the way it should be.

Ed, sorry if my opinions were taken harsh or wrong, hopefully you took it as constructive criticism rather than a bashing. Just the impressions I had from the article, pictures, etc. I am sure yours works great. I'd love to see the shoot off of all clips go head to head and see what the outcome of those are.

HEY ANY MAGAZINE GUYS READING THIS! Here's a great feature for you to get the ball rolling on! Gauranteed to bring lots of excitement to the issue and the products covered!

With that said I think this F**king post should die, it obviously spun way out of control.

[zbugger]

Honestly, I think this post should stay up. I believe it will help others understand how R&D work in product development. That's justhow competition works. Thanks to both Ed and Wayne for giving their sides. Here's also to hoping that we can be the exclusive coverage of the shootout, if it is to take place. There is no way to build a product that you can claim is superior to another product without at least looking at the competitions first. Many times you have to look at what they are doing so you can come up with a better way of doing the same thing. Do you know how much research GM had to do when designing the LS1 to come to the conclusion that it should remain pushrod based? They did look into the OHC thing. Hell, they had it in limited production with the LT5. I see no wrong in what anyone has done here. Everyone is giving great info. I'm beginning to like reading.

[Salt Racer]

At first, I just chimed in just to let everyone know you really can't judge a book by its cover. Then I got ticked off by posts accusing guys at 21st copying WD's design, by the very same person who started this thread and a couple of others.

As a suspension engineer myself, I could tell how much trouble and numerous design iterations that guys at 21st went through to come up with good handling suspension. It is obvious to trained eyes that two suspensions are not identical. Then someone accuses of them copying somebody else's design w/o any pickup points measurement. I certainly would get frustrated if someone accuses of me copying someone else's design just b/c there is some external resemblance.

Yes, this is indeed a free country and everyone is entitled to one's own opinion. My statment "keep your mouth shut" came from more of a political issue among people working in this industry, and may not have been appropriate to say that to general public. I apologize for that, but let's keep things civil. Accusations w/o any proof is hardly civil.

I too have desire for good aesthetics to a certain degree, but function is more important to me. I'm a little more hardcore than most guys here. I'm a kind of guy who would trade in 18s on my car for a set of 195/80R15 wide white wall tires in a heartbeat if those tires had better turn-in response and more grip. I don't think majority of people here would do the same.

It is possible to build a show quality PT car, and I would get along with the owner just fine if he uses the car like it is intended. But I've seen few too many cases of the opposite.

As an engineer, I get seriously offended when I see good stuff on a trailer queen show car b/c I take my job seriously. I work my azz off trying to come up with good design, only to see my suspension being used only on fairgrounds at less than 5mph. This has happened to me many more times than I can remember, and is very disappointing. It really doesn't matter if those cars win big trophies at car shows - I want them to be used like they are intended. Imagine you being one of Porsche chassis engineer and run into a guy who owns a GT3 - how would you feel if he told you he'll never take it to the track b/c he's afraid of scratching lower control arms or something?

If you want to make your car show quality, please do so. It's your car and you have all the right to build it the way you want it. But don't make it so nice that you'll be afraid of using it. And don't get blinded by shiney parts and misjudge the engineering behind them. Form doesn't necessarily follow function.

That's all I gotta say.

[cpederslie]

Salt, I can agree with everything you just said. I build my cars to drive, not ride around on the deck of trailer. I put lots of time and research into the components I use knowing what I intend to do with the vehicle. One of the main reasons I will stand behind Wayne and his product is that he helps provide a huge wealth of knowledge that I can't even claim to have. And you say that form doesn't necessarily follow function. True. But look at Art Morrison products, IMO the poster child of form following function!

That was my last two cents, you can keep the change.

[jr2]

So the questions still remain.

If 21st Century Street Machines are the suspension/fabrication professionals they claim to be?

Why?

• Purchase a WD clip?

• Claim to throw it away?

• Never call, email or carrier pigeon with any relevance to the problem?(When everyone knows WD would do anything to make things right)

• Claim to have never seen the article before going into print? (That's a huge lawsuit waiting to happen right there.)

I can't answer those for you. You can answer them for yourself. This is a forum. We all use this as a tool for our own ego boosting, Q&A, fact finding and humor or anything else that may fit the bill. If you take a look at all of the thread listings you'll know what I mean. If you can't you're lying to yourself.

The definition of a forum:

fo·rum ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôrm, fr-) n. pl. fo·rums, also fo·ra (fôr, fr)

1.
a.The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b.A public meeting place for open discussion.
c.A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.
d.A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
e.A court of law; a tribunal.


I have not used any profanity. I have not made any rude or slanderous public remarks or comments to any one in the forum regarding this. And I certainly have not taken out a front page add anywhere.

What I have done is expressed my opinion in a public forum for open discussion. You may take from it what you like, and leave the rest behind.

If the powers that be deem this thread to be no longer credible or find it not within the rules, so be it. I've said my peace just like everyone else. Only I'm takin the heat for it!

JR2

[kracker]

I think what those boys just said ROCKS ! it makes me feel good about this sport,
cped, and salt you BOTH are right on and others! But JR you hit it right on!
ED, we all think those questions need to addressed...But I dont think you should bash or lie.. the people here are to smart for that kinda BS.
Salt, I do after reading your post I think your right, copying is a bad and missplaced word. But the fact that the mag said first with an all new C-5 bolt in, well, I think that was wrong.

[derekf]

Perhaps I'm missing the point here.. but if Wayne says that he doesn't have an issue with anything that was done with the frame, why should anyone else?

More than anything else, I'm tickled that we have multiple frame fabricators (direct competitors) posting on the board WITHOUT any malice towards each other. I'd like to see a little more of that from others.... it sounds like a couple of folks have got an issue with a couple of other folks. I'm not going to point fingers; I don't think I have to. When you post, you can choose to write in an inflammatory manner or you can choose not to.

When you post, please re-read what you've typed before posting. We love discussions here. Heated discussions aren't so popular - feelings get hurt, people get resentful, and the wonderful technical discussions are replaced with flame wars and bashing.

[Salt Racer]

I'd post in here for the one last time. Not b/c I have to have the last word, but to clear up some misunderstandings, which caused this whole mess...

• Purchase a WD clip?

• Claim to throw it away?

• Never call, email or carrier pigeon with any relevance to the problem?(When everyone knows WD would do anything to make things right)

• Claim to have never seen the article before going into print? (That's a huge lawsuit waiting to happen right there.)

These are easy to understand if you've worked in this industry. I just happen to know all this just b/c I currently work in this industry. I'm no better than anybody else here. But when you get deep into this hobby, I think you guys need to understand some of these.

Buying competitors' products happens on daily basis. In case of chassis shops that grew out of fab shops (as in case of 21st and WD), they still build cars for individual customers and you'll have no choice but to buy competitors' product if that is what customer requests, not necessarily to copy their product. Without knowing this, it appeared as if 21st was copying WD's to some people. This is an everyday event for me, and I took this whole thing as an accusation w/o proof. Here's an interesting tid bit for you. I know WD has bought weld-in subframes with C5 IFS from Art Morrison before he introduced his own C5 sub. The difference in R&P location is apparent, but who's to say if WD didn't copy AME's control arm locations? But neither guys at AME nor WD think of this as much more than ordinary business. (more on this later)

About not contacting WD about the problems 21st encountered, it would have been nice of them if they let WD be aware of the issues. But there's all sorts of weired politics in this industry, just like any other business. Some choose to co-operate with each other, and others choose not to. My shop has done the same thing numerous times. We just paid and bought some products from some company just like all you guys do, and that is it. If the product doesn't work, we either modify it to make it work, or make our own. It's not really our business to stick our neck into what somebody else is doing especially when you're dealing with a direct competitor. Besides, making your products right is your own responsibility. So there is no hard feelings with one another about this.

I suspect 21st got one of first prototypes WD built. When there are many issues, you just HAVE TO assume there are other problems you can't see with naked eyes and for liability reason, especially on something like suspension and brakes, it sometimes is easier to start from scratch when you have access to material and proper tools. 21st and WD are 3000+miles apart. Truck freight takes at least a week, not to mention the cost. Meanwhile, customer starts getting pissed at the shop for not getting the job in time frame he was promised. Subframe has stuff welded everywhere, so there's not much material you can salvage. Shop space is premium, so it finds its way into a dumpster.

As far as magazine article goes, depending on editors, you really have no control over what they're going to write. It is not rare for them to give you a call asking for info/articles a couple of days before the deadline. Once you submit your info/draft, editors rearrange/reword/rephrase to add his own flavor to the article. In the process, info sometimes gets messed up and by the time the editor finishes up, it's time for the article to go into press. At this point, there's nothing you can do about it even if you knew some info needed correction. I've written some tech articles for magazines over the past coupla years, and I freaked out the first time I saw my stuff printed in a magazine b/c tech info was no longer accurate. There's nothing you can do but to move on. Chances are the inaccurate info you guys saw in the magazine was not 21st' fault.

Last but not least, regarding the whole copying thing...Most guys simply don't care. WD doesn't care. I really don't care if someone copies my design b/c I know how to make my existing designs better (but I do get pissed at accusations and whatnot). We do this for business, and we're constantly learning and moving ahead. In this particular case, GM built Camaro in only one way, so there's only so many ways you can build a bolt-on subframe for a Camaro. It's no surprising that different subframes on market have body mounts in the same locations, with engine mounts in identical locations. Look at how many similar-looking intake manifolds and headers there are for small block Chevy. Products from many different manufacturers eventually end up looking identical, with only minor different details that only trained people can see, at least until there's some technological break through.

That's it. I'm ready for beer.

[Edward Bednar]

Sorry I haven't had as much time to follow the last couple of days of postings.Thanks Wayne for joining in.Salt your last post shows your great insight into the business. I couldn't have said things much better.I haven't taken offense to anything presented in the forum so I hope no one else has either. I also hope everyone knows that the primary objective of all of this is to have fun and enjoy the sport.Well, I better get busy we got a shootout coming up. Thanks all. Ed