Chevy Rumble C5 article????

[cpederslie]

I'm right there with ya JR! My order is already in with Wayne for my clip!

[Cdog]

Not to get political here but competition will benifit us all as consumers of these items and make the industry more inovative. Brand loyality is cool but blind loyality is just stupid.

[kracker]

Competition is fine but buying someones hard work, sweat long hours ect. then knocking one off and saying your the MAN cuz you live in NASCAR land? sad! if what John says is true ( and I'm not says it is ) and your the suspension man why buy? just build! I think this is a small biz with mostly good people, I dont see Wayne building DSE arms and I'm sure he could. Tyler got Marks OK to build SED spindles. But he didnt have to! It was just the right thing to do thats all. Theres still so much stuff we need for this great new style car we call Pro-touring, work your own long hours and be proud to say I did that! and if you can build it go for it, and sell it go for that to. How would you feel then if you saw it in a mag and the dudes are saying they did it first. I guesse it just competition right? What Ever

[Cdog]

Competition is fine but buying someones hard work, sweat long hours ect. then knocking one off and saying your the MAN cuz you live in NASCAR land? sad! if what John says is true ( and I'm not says it is ) and your the suspension man why buy? just build! I think this is a small biz with mostly good people, I dont see Wayne building DSE arms and I'm sure he could. Tyler got Marks OK to build SED spindles. But he didnt have to! It was just the right thing to do thats all. Theres still so much stuff we need for this great new style car we call Pro-touring, work your own long hours and be proud to say I did that! and if you can build it go for it, and sell it go for that to. How would you feel then if you saw it in a mag and the dudes are saying they did it first. I guesse it just competition right? What Ever

There's probably quite a lot of assumptions going on here. I had my old Schiada V-Drive boat in Hotboat Mag. and boy can they F-up a story about a boat. Not to mention my wife used to work for Primedia Publishing and most of the people who write those articles don't know any thing about what they're writing about. In fact most of them are under paid college grads or temps. Wayne Due is a great guy, i've picked his brain numerious times and he is a rare bird in the auto bizz.

[Edward Bednar]

I didn't want to get into this but since the subject has been broached here's the answer.We did order a WD chassis to install in a car but there were unfortunately problems with the frame.This was over a year and a half ago, maybe two.We weren't looking to reinvent the wheel Wayne had a the reputation of producing a good product.This was not our experience however.It was warped enough that we had trouble getting it to bolt up. When we did get it bolted up we couldn't make up a difference of about a half inch on the passenger side wheelbase. The motor mounts weren't centered. We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman. The tie rods wouln't clear the inner wheel rims. So into the dumpster it went. We couldn't knock it off, whatever version he sent wouldn't work. Now we didn't invent suspension geometry, nor did Wayne, but we did have some experience and felt that we could do it better ourselves. So we pulled out General Motors spec sheets on their original 1st Gen frame. (I hope this isn't a sacrilage) grabbed the C5 suspension spec'd it up, thought long and hard about what we wanted to accomplish,plugged it into the computer (yes anyone can buy these software packages you don't even have to really know the math but it helps), spec'd out the geometry and then went to thrashing it out on the jig. After three prototypes we have something we feel comfortable with and will continue to develop.It has adjustability of caster, camber and instsant center, nothing knew, things which have been used in a number of Nascar classes for years. Now I think Payton presented that we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun.Ed

[Edward Bednar]

I didn't want to get into this but since the subject has been broached here's the answer.We did order a WD chassis to install in a car but there were unfortunately problems with the frame.This was over a year and a half ago, maybe two.We weren't looking to reinvent the wheel Wayne had a the reputation of producing a good product.This was not our experience however.It was warped enough that we had trouble getting it to bolt up. When we did get it bolted up we couldn't make up a difference of about a half inch on the passenger side wheelbase. The motor mounts weren't centered. We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman. The tie rods wouln't clear the inner wheel rims. So into the dumpster it went. We couldn't knock it off, whatever version he sent wouldn't work. Now we didn't invent suspension geometry, nor did Wayne, but we did have some experience and felt that we could do it better ourselves. So we pulled out General Motors spec sheets on their original 1st Gen frame. (I hope this isn't a sacrilage) grabbed the C5 suspension spec'd it up, thought long and hard about what we wanted to accomplish,plugged it into the computer (yes anyone can buy these software packages you don't even have to really know the math but it helps), spec'd out the geometry and then went to thrashing it out on the jig. After three prototypes we have something we feel comfortable with and will continue to develop.It has adjustability of caster, camber and instsant center, nothing knew, things which have been used in a number of Nascar classes for years. Now I think Payton presented that we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun.Ed

[MrQuick]

Ok I see where this is going...lets not spark up a whole DSE vs. Speed tech style shoot out again.That did nothing but damage the scene around here.
What ever is going on behind the shop tables is between builder A and builder W. Lets not blow everything out of proportion. I stated this before that a certain set up to provide improvement over a stock set up will tend to look similar, its in the way things are engineered. Hell put an extra bend somewhere and call it yours. Plus having more than one provider gives the buying public a selection rather than a comprimse staying stock.

[kracker]

Well maybe thats why WD doesn't have it on his site, or if you call him he will talk you out of a C-5 frame. I have talked to him myself and cant even imagine him not willing to say send it back and or lets work together. And even after what you just said he still would probably help you out. GM cant even get right all the time ever heard of a recall or T.S.B.

BTW where's your trash can?

[Cdog]

I didn't want to get into this but since the subject has been broached here's the answer.We did order a WD chassis to install in a car but there were unfortunately problems with the frame.This was over a year and a half ago, maybe two.We weren't looking to reinvent the wheel Wayne had a the reputation of producing a good product.This was not our experience however.It was warped enough that we had trouble getting it to bolt up. When we did get it bolted up we couldn't make up a difference of about a half inch on the passenger side wheelbase. The motor mounts weren't centered. We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman. The tie rods wouln't clear the inner wheel rims. So into the dumpster it went. We couldn't knock it off, whatever version he sent wouldn't work. Now we didn't invent suspension geometry, nor did Wayne, but we did have some experience and felt that we could do it better ourselves. So we pulled out General Motors spec sheets on their original 1st Gen frame. (I hope this isn't a sacrilage) grabbed the C5 suspension spec'd it up, thought long and hard about what we wanted to accomplish,plugged it into the computer (yes anyone can buy these software packages you don't even have to really know the math but it helps), spec'd out the geometry and then went to thrashing it out on the jig. After three prototypes we have something we feel comfortable with and will continue to develop.It has adjustability of caster, camber and instsant center, nothing knew, things which have been used in a number of Nascar classes for years. Now I think Payton presented that we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun.Ed

Check your PM"S.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Guys,

I'm concerned about the direction of this thread with respect to the last few posts. Please try to keep it civil or the thread will be closed.

Thanks,

[kracker]

Maybe some are saying to much, maybe I'm saying to much but doesn't it seem strange that a shop buys a frame and just happens to be at a time and place in there life to build a so called better frame base on the frame they bought? and then market it! Thats all have to say about that. Lets just pickup the pieces and move on. So to you Ed why will your frame with C-5, handle so much better then Johns frame with C-5? Both look like about the same, both are in first gen cars, whats the diff? you moved the rack back about 2'' and up about 2'' and made the algnment adjust on the lower contol arm. Looks like your using Dues steering arms or ones that look the same anyway. Maybe hes see how it should have been done and will build them this way now.

[Salt Racer]

Before Ralph closes this thing...

...We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman...

Actually anti-Ackermann, isn't it?

Just for the record (for those newbies who don't know me), I don't work for 21st. I'm on neither side - I don't even own a Camaro. That said, it's really obvious to me the suspensions on WD's and 21st's are different. Doesn't matter both subframes use C5 suspension components. Like I said, it's all in pivot location, that includes R&P location. There's a chance 21st may have used dimensions off of bumper mounts and body mounts, etc, but suspensions are different. If you still think 21st copied WD's, then I must also say WD copied GM's design. Did WD ask for GM's permission? Probably not. Do I have any problem with that? No.

..we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun...

Yup what he said. Talk is cheap. Which subframe works better? Why don't you find it out yourself?

If you're happy with WD's subframe, then good. I'm happy for you. But that doesn't give you any right to talk others' products down, especially since none of you have any scientific proof whatsoever to back up your claims other than aesthetic values. What are you building, a show car or a performance car?

Boys at 21st and Payton King are working hard to come up with some numbers to back up their claims. Get your car running and take it to the road course. I did that with my Riviera, with no financial backing from the company I work for. There's no reason why you can't do the same. I drove 1300+miles one way to Streets of Willow track, so "there's no good track near me" will only be taken as a lame excuse.

Pull off better lap time than Payton's car with identical or lesser motor & tires, then you'll have legitimate bragging right but you still have no right to talk down others' efforts.

[kracker]

There was a light blue 67 on power tour this year, in fact some one posted a small pic of it on the old site, it has logged over 5000 mile will be in a major mag soon and guesse what it has one of the Wd C-5, yea thats right the one that doestn work.
We ALL would love to a see the BIG shoot out! I know I would, but it wont happen,
its bad for biz. Just like you cant believe everything you read we all know that.
I just think Ed maybe should of had a little respect for a good person in the biz and just picked his words better.

[Edward Bednar]

I think the shootout can still happen and would be a good idea. This is like the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar stuff I grew up with. It's actually good fun and makes everyone better. Our frame may not stand up to others but if it doesn't I want to know why and I want to figure out how to make it better. The cam companies, the head companies, the intake companies all have to stand up to critical evaluation. Why not the suspension mods. There are definitely enough things we can measure. I mentioned my father was with R&D at GM. There were times he'd mentioned he was heading out to the proving grounds not to evaluate G.M.'s product but Ford, Chysler and others. They tore their competitors cars down to see what they were up to. They all do it. My father mentioned to me he felt Chysler engineers often had it over everyone else. Tough thing to admit when you work for the competitor but he was being honest with himself. Trying to motivate himself and his team to be better, more creative.Sometimes this is more a sign of corporate culture and what the engineers were allowed to do.The point is we all learn from one another.This is all said so you understand that I did choose my words carefully. I was explaining that this was our experience with this particular version of one of his frames. This is what we chose to do about it. I have alot of respect for Wayne. Building any chassis is no small undertaking. I've seen some pics of some other frames he's done with the C5 that have the rack in the stock location with the motor being pushed back well into the firewall. This maintains more of the original geometry which is near ideal. Read Adams texts on suspension design. The G.M. engineers almost followed it to a T.This may be one of his versions on the road.. But this requires major firewall and trans tunnel modifications. Not everyone has the means or desires to pursue this extensive an undertaking. We designed our frame to avoid this and bolt up hopefully in a weekend with a small block or LS1. The big block version requires some firewall and trans tunnel work, not too extensive, and some oil pan mods. We have a drop version of the frame but which also requires extensive mods.We want a little of something for everyone.We wanted adjustability he didn't offer as well.Again nothing new. I hope most everyone understands most suspension technology goes back in this particular arena for over 50 yrs. Alot of Adam's work probably dates back 30 yrs.There's not much that hasn't already been tried and worked out by some extremely bright people. We just try to apply what they found to work into our package. We are proud of it.We do want to see it thashed on the road and I do want to hear what people think could be better. I also want to see others do the same.
In answer to the other refernce about steering arms.The steering arms have to be specfic to all major variables in a frame design.You can't push the rack back without building a new arm. You can't change instant center without building a new arm at least in our experience.A hi-performance frame is a very twitchy thing. Change one thing and everything else can go to hell in a hand basket. That's why Sundays are so much fun in Nascar. The littlest things can make all the difference in the world. Ed

[TitoJones]

Ed-

Just wanted to welcome you to the board. It is never fun defending your products or rep, and we get very few manufacturers who are willing to stick it out.
I think it is nice to have competition, and this is coming from a Wayne Due Whore. I'd love to see all the suspension makers go head to head to see which frame is the ultimate-
DS&E's new frame
Wayne Due C4/C5
21st C5
Chassisworks Mustang II
Martz Road race
I think we should have a tire requirement to the cars in the shootout of no more than a 275 up front with a 335 max out back.
Good luck with the venture.
Tyler

[BRIAN]

Ed Good luck in selling your product. I can't understand the bashing unless it comes from WD's shop themselves. If you connect the mtg points on a stock Camaro frame how different do you want it to wind up? I wouldn't even apologize if you did buy his frame, you were simply sizing up the market and making educated changes to a product that you saw shortcomings in. Every other post on this site is somebody trying to get measurements or demensions of a part so they can fabricate their own so why is everybody on the attack. If they are WD fans great stick to his product. If Ed is wrong in his changes and his product is poorly constructed the market will let him know. I am impressed that he is taking the criticism and actually saying that he is willing to make further improvements. There are tons of post saying what if I could buy something with this or that type of mod. Here you have a MFG with an opened mind listening to you. Hey let him know what the market wants he sounds ready to deliver. WD fans stick with your product as it is very good and what makes you happy but others use this as an open opurtunity.
The only way a shootout would work would be one car with the frames swapped out leaving everything else equal.

[Cdog]

I think the shootout can still happen and would be a good idea. This is like the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar stuff I grew up with. It's actually good fun and makes everyone better. Our frame may not stand up to others but if it doesn't I want to know why and I want to figure out how to make it better. The cam companies, the head companies, the intake companies all have to stand up to critical evaluation. Why not the suspension mods. There are definitely enough things we can measure. I mentioned my father was with R&D at GM. There were times he'd mentioned he was heading out to the proving grounds not to evaluate G.M.'s product but Ford, Chysler and others. They tore their competitors cars down to see what they were up to. They all do it. My father mentioned to me he felt Chysler engineers often had it over everyone else. Tough thing to admit when you work for the competitor but he was being honest with himself. Trying to motivate himself and his team to be better, more creative.Sometimes this is more a sign of corporate culture and what the engineers were allowed to do.The point is we all learn from one another.This is all said so you understand that I did choose my words carefully. I was explaining that this was our experience with this particular version of one of his frames. This is what we chose to do about it. I have alot of respect for Wayne. Building any chassis is no small undertaking. I've seen some pics of some other frames he's done with the C5 that have the rack in the stock location with the motor being pushed back well into the firewall. This maintains more of the original geometry which is near ideal. Read Adams texts on suspension design. The G.M. engineers almost followed it to a T.This may be one of his versions on the road.. But this requires major firewall and trans tunnel modifications. Not everyone has the means or desires to pursue this extensive an undertaking. We designed our frame to avoid this and bolt up hopefully in a weekend with a small block or LS1. The big block version requires some firewall and trans tunnel work, not too extensive, and some oil pan mods. We have a drop version of the frame but which also requires extensive mods.We want a little of something for everyone.We wanted adjustability he didn't offer as well.Again nothing new. I hope most everyone understands most suspension technology goes back in this particular arena for over 50 yrs. Alot of Adam's work probably dates back 30 yrs.There's not much that hasn't already been tried and worked out by some extremely bright people. We just try to apply what they found to work into our package. We are proud of it.We do want to see it thashed on the road and I do want to hear what people think could be better. I also want to see others do the same.
In answer to the other refernce about steering arms.The steering arms have to be specfic to all major variables in a frame design.You can't push the rack back without building a new arm. You can't change instant center without building a new arm at least in our experience.A hi-performance frame is a very twitchy thing. Change one thing and everything else can go to hell in a hand basket. That's why Sundays are so much fun in Nascar. The littlest things can make all the difference in the world. Ed

Hey Ed. I'll donate my car to use as your beta tester. It's all ready to go with new sheet metal and all new trunk pan ( not installed yet). You can keep it as long as you need it to prove your suspension.

[MrQuick]

Thanks for the profesionalism Ed, its a welcome trait. Katz are you mad?
Now the attitude.
Its just some of us feel Wayne is one of us and they find your competition threatning. But we must realize this is good for business believe it or not. It may open up a flood gate for the aftermarket. Now the east coast can have C5 suspensions. I will still support Wayne he's closer but will still listen to what Ed has to say.I mean hell theres a couple hundred Camaros on the road,I think we can all get along.

[Wayne Due]

I just want say what Ed did is OK with me, ( I didnt have to refund him LOL) we all do it. Was he the first no. will he be the last no. Will Tyler sell him a T-56 kit, probably not LOL . I did have problems with the C-5 frame yes the rack position being the big prob. I build about 7 of them, and some are on the road and work really nice.
Good luck ED.
Brain, salt racer ..Thanks for understanding!

[Salt Racer]

No Vince, I'm not mad. I just got irritated a little.

I've been sent to Lateral-G's thread about 21st subframe by one of members here before. If you haven't seen the thread, go there and read Ed's posts. How often do you see a guy from manufacturer takes a time and explains their design philosophies, why their stuff is designed the way they are, etc. using proper technical terms with absolutely no BS advertising crap mixed? That's professionalism and an indication of their great customer service, and I'm pretty damn sure they'll soon have their own faithful followers.

And here are those new guys bashing on their products solely based on the aesthetic values. They've already made their decisions to go with WD's subframe, so why did they even bother starting this thread? Either they weren't sure if they've made the right decision (which isn't likely based on their posts), or just to bad mouth what they think is inferior product.

Judging products based on looks and craftsmanship is fine if this was Show-Touring.com (that's kinda oxymoron, isn't it?). But even then, talking down on new products that none of them have any first-hand experience with, let alone starting a thread just to bad mouth, is totally uncalled for.

If you don't like something new on market, that's fine. Just keep your mouth shut if you have nothing positive to say.

Well, maybe I am mad a little.

Wayne,
Thanks for chiming in. Good to see you here. Come visit us sometime.